Abortion is murder. Period.

I say 8 weeks and you need a bloody good reason. It is not for me but i don't judge others.. Anything after 8 weeks is horrid and should not be allowed.

I can not watch the video, its too horrible

Come unto me all who are heavy laden and I will refresh you. Matthew 11:28
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2
They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23:4

We're all sinners. If we desire to bring people to Jesus, then we try to help them process it, and decide to ask for forgiveness. If we shove it in their face, then they recoil and are less likely to listen, much less recognize sin, and even more remotely ask for forgiveness.

The material is good. The delivery with that awful title is bad. There's nothing wrong with the material. I would urge you to pray for the Holy Spirit to intercede for you and help you use the best presentation. That was my only criticism.

I can tell you from many decades of ministry that women and men carry the burden of sin forever after asking for forgiveness. Then when a video like these are presented it brings it all back up again. I hope that makes sense. They can't ever forget, and yet we believe that when we come boldly before God and ask for the sin to be taken away, God makes that sin be as far as the East is from the West. With this one issue, for parents who committed it, you have to be careful.

A similar issue happens with soldiers and war, because while they don't murder people only kill, sometimes they do oppress people (in defiance of what Jesus said to the soldiers) as well as murder on occasion. So when talking to soldiers, one is careful and helps them process it. See?

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 05:39 AM

Thank you, OP - this really cannot be said enough. I still don't understand how a civilized society can permit this to happen, under the guise that the human life they are destroying is just a mass of tissue and cells. That's like a child closing their eyes, holding their hands over their ears, and shouting loudly because they do not want to hear the truth. True evil resides in apathy and indifference.

Thank you for your heartfelt concern. However, sometimes it is simply necessary to call things what they are.

You never did respond to my question about which term you believe Jesus might use to refer to the procedure. In your opinion, what sin is being committed?

excellent question

All I know is that it's wrong. Anyone who studies medicine knows a fetus is human from conception. As such, the deliberate killing of a human. Murder is about intentions. So if you want to be legalistic, then an abortion could be murder depending upon the intention of the person doing it. Since permission must be given, then the person who agreed to do it is also guity of that crime.

In the Ten Commandments it literally says Thou shall not murder. Soldiers were common in Israel. I wrote a long Christian apologetics on Self-Defense the other day. They killed not murder.

With abortion it's murky but the intention seems to be murder in my eyes. I won't condemn someone. I think it's a heinous process, cruel beyond belief in every method. It's essential an abrogation of responsibility.

Good birth control could eliminate almost all of of it. Good birth control can medically be taught. See my sig for that information especially birth control if the SHTF.

If I'm a doctor, and I allow someone to die by withdrawing life support, did I commit murder? It's a sticky widget.

In the Old Testament, there's multiple verses with place no value on babies of less than a month's life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. Leviticus 27:6

You see how sticky the issue is?

If I'm a doctor and I prescribe the morning after pill, did I commit murder and the mom who took it too?

It's complex. The point is to change hearts and bring people to Christ and to present it well such that they will listen.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 01:28 PM

Is that the politically correct version..thoushalt not murder? I thought it was THOU SHALT NOT KILL

And then we have

The meek shall inherit the earth

does that include only those that didnt murder but that did kill?

I dont think so

definition of meek is pretty clear and concise

No, that's a misconception. Read this. I wrote it recently. If you do some exegesis then you'll understand that word this used. I will blue bold the pertinent section. But read it all.

In the Ten Commandments, one verse says "Thou shall not kill" in some translations. The actual word is Ratsach in Hebrew and it means "to dash to pieces" or murder. Obviously since being a warrior or soldier was an aspect of all tribal or urban Jews, then God is not saying not to kill. Murder and kill are two entirely different things.

There were definitely soldiers in Israel. In those days, literally anyone could be a soldier in times of war or peace. In the Old Testament, there are times for peace and times for war.

Speaking of the “last days”...(the end of the ultimate time of humanity and the coming of a New Age of God's reign...not now.)
4And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples;and they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation,And never again will they learn war. Isaiah 2: 4

But in Joel, in times of war:
9 Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, "I am strong!" 11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O LORD! Joel 3: 9-11

There's actually a couple of places where several occupations or social status are discussed. Jesus doesn't say that they should quit their jobs. Aspects of their jobs might be to defend themselves.

And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. Luke 3:14

These men struggled with the precise same issues. They were Roman citizens from diverse places who were the muscle that supported the work of the Roman empire. And yet they understood despite their lack of education and differing cultural beliefs in the words of Jesus. Their jobs and their beliefs CLASHED. That's why they asked Him.

It doesn't say that the soldier should stop protecting themselves. The Greek word is diaseiste which means “oppress” actually. Don't oppress [any man is contextually understood but not in the Greek verse itself] would be a more accurate translation.

As a matter of fact, Jesus actually praises a certain Roman centurion, who was a profession Roman soldier who would have commanded at least 60 and up to 100 soldiers.

In the story of Matthew chapter 8, a Roman centurion recognizes that he's unworthy, probably because he was a gentile (not Jewish) and a soldier who was occupying Jesus' people. He might have felt guilty, not only because of his occupation but also because of the inherent violence of it.

And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,6and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.”7Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”8But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.9“For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”10Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. Matthew 8: 5-10.

He doesn't tell him to stop commanding other soldiers either.

He did tell his disciples that he would be captured, tried, and killed. This foreshadows God's will for Jesus, for He was to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world through Time for all people.

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

21From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.” Matthew 16: 21-23

When Peter tried to protect his Master, Jesus again rebukes him, and heals the soldier who was injured by Peter's action. This shows compassion, and shows that it's God's plan for Jesus (not all people) to be killed and made that sacrifice.

52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” Matthew 26: 52-54

Some Christians use this one verse to proclaim that we're not to use weapons, but that's not what it says. It says we will perish if we use them. In this case, it was God's plan for Jesus to be taken and Peter was specifically interfering. It's not necessarily for us concerning carrying weapons because in one case, Jesus specifically tells them they need a sword to fulfill prophesy.

Abortion is murder of a defenseless child.

The analogy with killing in war/self-defense is just absolute strawman here....

Careful careful with Holy Scripture. Read it in your native language, but then go back and read the original language and commentary. They might use an idiom, or the word isn't clear, you have to study the word deeply and only by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Don't over simplify.

I dont want to derail ops thread but I do not agree with you dont be afraid.

I have to go

Bumping your thread op

You're missing the point. I thought we were all Christians here. Yes, it's killing but murder is intent. Most abortions are murder in my belief, but that's not what the Scripture says or is a legal definition of murder.

Study it deeply so you can defend the Holy Scriptures to unbelievers.

If you make it cut and dried and don't actually study it, then you can't prove what you believe and thus can't defend it and help them understand the sin.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 06:14 AM

Understand this, the unbeliever will study Holy Scripture too and will just quote the Word chapter and verse and not do a deep study and so people will do things like this:
[link to skepticsannotatedbible.com]

Now go look at those sections of God's Word. I challenge you to do that, so then you go and STUDY IT DEEPLY. Then you can defend it to explain what it means and why you believe that abortion is murder.

Make better sense?

Otherwise those verses create a loophole for abortion, and that's not what is the Intent.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 06:43 AM

Ignorantia juris non excusat

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
1 John 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
---
If God has no problem referring to someone who hates his brother as a murderer, I have no problem referring to the act of dismembering a child in the womb as murder.

For example:
Numbers 35:30
[link to biblos.com]
Two key words are used here makkeh which means kill, and yirsah which means clearly murder.
"'Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

That would indicate that Abortion is Murder, but you would need witnesses.

Now compare that to:
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
[link to bible.cc]
The key Hebrew word found here:
[link to biblesuite.com]
It's clearly murder, but unless you understand that the actual phrase is dash to pieces, then the meaning is cryptic.

The compare that to
Numbers 35:16 "'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.
[link to bible.cc]
[link to biblesuite.com]
That's the actual Hebrew word, and again it's murder. An abortionist can use metal instruments to tear (graphic sorry) a baby with metal instruments. So clearly murder.

This one verse is problematic:
[link to bible.cc]
Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.Exodus 21:12

That would mean all soldiers, law enforcement, anyone who killed another person would be put to death. That can't be right.
That Hebrew word is makkeh (kills)
[link to biblesuite.com]

You see, studying the Word is done like this. It's complex.

Yes GOOD Study of the Word. Clear intent so murder. I agree. Hate and then killing is murder. Therefore if the person had an abortion because they hated the child inside them and then had an abortion, it would clearly be murder.

But we can't just look at the English, we have to look at the Greek:
[link to interlinearbible.org]
This is the Greek word used anthropoktonos
[link to biblesuite.com]
It's clearly murder.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 06:33 AM

I think God will be witness enough. It is only complex because you are convoluting the issue as is the fashion these days.

Yes, that is an extra-Biblical legal term. No argument here. Ignorance of the Law is not a remedy. But don't push that into the Bible. If you found a verse in the Bible like it, then it would have merit in this discussion.

No no, studying the Word is not convoluting. It's what we're called to do.

We essentially agree that abortion is murder.

What if a girl (this happened to me as I advised her) tells you that her parents told her she must get an abortion but she didn't want one.

She asks me "Am I am murderer?"

If you study the Word then you can give her an answer. If you don't then, it doesn't help her.

The goal is her salvation. The goal is to study the Word such that we can help. The goal is to help her find forgiveness.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 06:39 AM

I highly doubt that, when standing before the judgement seat of God, "I didn't intend to sin" will be an effective defense.

Regarding this you said earlier "Ignorantia juris non excusat"
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Who claimed it was?

What I said was that the Latin phrase you quoted isn't in Holy Scripture. Don't make it Holy Scripture. It's not a Biblical phrase.

There's lots of phrases about intent in the Holy Scriptures regarding sin.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 06:41 AM

You say that about rape too?

If your goal is convince me that your approach is better somehow, I must say that I am unpersuaded. Let us agree to disagree, and each walk the path that God has set before us. If God is displeased with my terminology, I suspect He will let me know.

What do mean? Complete what you're asking. Are you asking if someone is raped and they abort the baby, is it murder?

The first place to start would be
"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," Deuteronomy. 22:25-27

Looking only at the English, it says that only the man shall be punished and put to death. In those days, there wasn't birth control other than abstention. Likely a raped woman would get pregnant in far more frequency. She would have carried it to term.

Ethically that's cruel. I've never had to make that decision. I hope I never do.Some people chose to abort the fetus by giving a morning after pill. Some carry it to term.

I won't make anyone stumble. I don't think it's right to kill an innocent baby, do you? It's awful to force a woman to carry the baby to term.

It's her decision, and I'd support her, and pray with her, and try to help her raise the child or come to terms with her decision. If she was going to terminate the child's life, then she shouldn't wait. But waiting might give her time to decide what to do.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 08:04 AM

I'm against abortion, but there are exceptions.

A neighbor of mine, was pregnant. The unborn child was heavily disabled. She aborted, I know it has been a hard decision for her, but it was the right decision.

Why? Because some life is more valuable than other life?
---
Nazi eugenics
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

If women are happy to support a cabal of blood sacrifice. Thats their problem. They will pay for it. Karma heavy punishment. In the bible god declared war on baby killers.

This is a very complex spiritual issue. At the time of the Bible, at least the latest parts written, many miscarriages happened by poor nutrition, disease, age of the mother, no doctor or midwife available etc. Realize that a lot of miscarriage happen all the time, but women don't realize they were pregnant.

For example, spontaneous abortion (not induced but a miscarriage) rate is 50%
[link to www.emcom.ca]
"The incidence of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be 50% of all pregnancies, based on the assumption that many pregnancies abort spontaneously with no clinical recognition. The frequency of spontaneous abortions in Ontario between 1979 and 1984 were calculated from data on hospital admissions for all Ontario hospitals."
Now, we can save all kinds of babies with terrible birth defects. Some really so graphic, I won't include the pictures, but they can't have any quality of life whatso ever. In the hospital, the parents often abandon them, by not coming back and then choosing to institutionalize them. It's horrifically cruel.

Should we ethically save those babies? I don't know. They wouldn't have survived in New Testament times, so they didn't have those concerns. We do.

Example: Treacher-Collins
[link to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
I'll leave it up to you to see the pics. It's so tragic. I don't think I could ever abort a baby.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 07:02 AM