Abortion is murder. Period.

The honest real lasting effects of abortion
[link to www.psychologytoday.com]

"Symptoms of PASS may include any of the following:

Guilt: Experiencing guilt does not imply that you made a mistake or “violated your own moral code,” as some pro-lifers would imply. However, feelings around having an abortion may be complex and have to take into account fear of what others might think.
Anxiety: General anxiety is a common symptom of PTSD—in the case of PASS, there might be a particular anxiety over fertility issues and the ability to get pregnant again.
Numbness, Depression: Again, common symptoms of PTSD.
Flashbacks: Abortion is surgery, and in most cases, it’s surgery that happens while the patient is fully conscious. This can be a distressing experience.
Suicidal thoughts: In extreme cases, the PTSD that results from a controversial abortion could lead to suicidal thoughts or tendencies and would require immediate treatment. It’s important to note that this is not a common or expected symptom of PASS, but as with any form of PTSD, it is possible."

A lot of people like to brush off the fact that some women have PTSD after an abortion. Of course they do. It was an enormously difficult decision. The fact that they struggled to do it, and wrestled with it, isn't that an indication of the morality of it? Is it the fact that the methods are barbaric? Is it the shame and guilt that women suffer in silence?

Some will argue it's not a problem. I assure it's a very real medical issue. This isn't about judgement. It's about finding medical ways to help prevent PTSD.

Arguing about the term post-abortion stress syndrome is a moot point. It doesn't matter about the term. What matters is trying to prevent unnecessary abortions, making them more compassionate, making better birth control, giving women better nutrition, better dental care, preventing birth defects, and on and on.

Let's not be silent and make women suffer through shame. Let's help them to cope.

If a Christian, counseling them to help them in the decision process, and offering assistance by whatever needs can be created will help women who are struggling. Then if a decision is made for adoption, many couples could raise the child and help the mother with medical bills.

Let's minimize PTSD among pregnant moms.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 09:37 AM

If you believe God has no authority, then why would you post on this topic? Who are you trying to convince? Yourself?

In the night and alone, do you not wonder about God? When discouraged and doubting you have all the answers, then don't you want God to be there?

Whatever you believe, God is real. God loves you. God knew you at the beginning of Time. God knows all of your secrets. All of the sin, and yet, loves you still. God even knows how many hairs are on your head.

You could stay on the same path. You know where that road goes. Or you could invite God to come into your life. It's your choice. There's Free Will. God won't force you.

I don't appreciate onlookers as I diddle my wang.

God may be real. No longer am I an atheist.

I can say for sure and I have others who agree....

I would not want to come back to this Earth to live a life all over again. That means I don't consider this life much of a gift.

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
Matthew 12:37
King James Version (KJV)

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)

"Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he has violated her, he may not put her away all his days."

So you admit that some aspects of your life, you wish were better? That maybe if you could do it again, that you'd make better choices.

Maybe your life seems screwed up. Maybe you've done some terrible things. Maybe you think that means those bad things can never be forgiven.

The Bible says otherwise. There was a man named Saul and he hated Christians. He persecuted them. He punished them in every way. Then one day, God spoke to Saul. He gave him a new name, and accepted Saul (now named Paul) to be His Child forever.

No one could argue that Jesus was a bad man. He was goodness itself. And yet God sent Jesus to die for you AC. From the beginning of Time, God knew you needed help. God knew that only Jesus could save you from the darkness.

You can change. This life can be a gift. It can be today. It's your choice.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 09:52 AM

No..nothing I necessarily did wrong.

The game was rigged and unjust.

no murder is the lact of unlawfull killing.

abortion is killing or terminating a life, yes, but it is not murder by definition, until the law makes it illegal.

get it?

What do you think that means?

You think God is out to get you? Isn't that at odds with God sending His only Son for your sake? How much does God have to do to save your soul? What greater gift could He have done?

Don't be a pretty girl in a society that runs by the OT.

Is that Man's definition in the UK, or is that God's definition in the Bible?

Which has higher authority? What do you think?

When we are standing before the throne of God, which law do you think will be applied? Man's law? Or God's law?

If you don't wish to subject yourself to God's law, that of course is your choice. At least for now.

No, that's wrong. The passage is from Deuteronomy. The woman is not pretty, she's a damsel (a virgin) hannaharah in the Hebrew.

She's been raped. Now it will be terriblely difficult if not impossible in those Old Testament days to find a husband.

Is that because she was a bad person, or because of the hardness of men's hearts?

The law was written in ancient times so that not only would there be a dowry, but also that she should be protected from being divorced.

Is it inadequate and terrible? Yes. Who committed the sin, the rapist.

Was that always true? No. In fact, if you scroll back, you'll see that a rapist could be executed.

Don't pull out a verse and then not study it.

What would be real justice? Is there any recompense for what has been stolen from her?

Don't serve the Darkness by mocking Scripture.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 10:07 AM

Reposting this video just because I love the song, and people may not see it unless they scroll through the entire thread.

that is mans definition of mans word murder.

if the OP said abortion is killing.. who could argue with that?

but since OP chose a word that means 'unlawful killing' then by the definition alone thats all that matters

in other words its a type of killing that does not have a legal penalty associated with it.

now as far as in gods eye etc, well sure we can all speculate what 'god' would thinks, but i know one thing for sure you dont know what 'god' thinks

that is like saying it's okay for Hitler to kill Jews...it's his choice.

like saying "if you don't like jews then dont kill them!"

You are well spoken. Not a Christian by the use of the lowercase. You don't believe in God's authority.

Let's look at the legal definition of murder. That's not my choice for the title, but let me defend it.

Murder:The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.
[link to legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com]

That's the broad definition. It will vary based nations.

Abortion is legal. What that means is that it's allowed by law. Therefore by Man's law in some nations (have to be provisional) then it's allowed to be performed under strict rules within a nation.

Murder by definition happens when there's intent. Some killing is justifiable if there's a reason. For example, in my country (USA) self-defense because a person was in fear for his/her life.

A soldier might kill an enemy and under certain rules during war, that's not considered murder, but could be murder if he/she used an intent that wasn't justified.

Should abortion be legal? I cannot speak to English common law. In the USA, abortion is legal but that is only because the Supreme Court decided that a fetus isn't a human being.

How is it in the UK?

In the USA, natural rights are a major cornerstone of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I would imagine that natural rights are also an essental aspect of British Common Law.

Natural Rights are given at birth. That's the sticky widget.
When does birth happen? Is it at conception or vaginal or Caesaerean section birth?

You have to decide what that mom is carrying. Is it a human? If it is, no matter if it is a fetus (foetus I think you spell it in England) then that human inside of her has natural rights.

The Courts may decide it doesn't. They may decide that it isn't human. Of course it is. It's squinting at gnats and swallowing a camel.

If a fetus is a human when conception happens it has natural rights. It can't protect it's rights.

Does that mean abortion shouldn't be legal? Perhaps. Maybe the only reason to have abortion is to use it in very rare circumstances. Maybe abortion is a legal remedy for the hardness of hearts of Humanity?

What will God decide? Imagine you are the Supreme Being, the Creator of All Life. Will you say, that that fetus isn't alive and human? I doubt it.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 10:41 AM

it depends on when the penis enters the vagina

I guess you missed the point when I said, "It is thier body" the Jews were not Hilter's body.

Nice try though.

It is your right to an opinion because nature didn't give women the ability to abort - science did.
Abortion uses the collective resources of the society to perform them safely. ie. trained doctors, hospitals, medicine.

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Your initial point is true. A being shouldn't be told what to do with their body. The reality is a being is told what to do with their body all the time, especially concerning medical ethics.

Example: A person wants to commit suicide.
Example: A person wishes to sell their kidney.
Example: A person wishes to take illegal drugs

As you can see, all of those things are very regulated and often illegal. It doesn't matter that it's the patient's body.

But then, it becomes even more complicated. Will you honestly say that a fetus isn't a human being?

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/21/2013 10:44 AM

The COMMUNITY has a right to decide if abortions are acceptable. Nature didn't give women the ability to abort.

I remember when the wife first shared with me her suspicions that she was pregnant. She ran out to pick up an at-home test - Positive! We could hardly contain our excitement, and scheduled an appointment with her OB/GYN as quickly as possible. Our suspicions were again confirmed.

As the weeks went on and the ultrasounds became more and more intriguing. Each and every visit we witnessed this life growing until one day we witnessed the little flutter of light - one which resembled a small butterfly flickering on the screen - we were witnessing the beating heart of our child.

We were readying ourselves for this new life. We were readying the house, buying clothes and related items. We were so proud. We were so happy - sharing the coming arrival with most everyone we met.

Until one day - the light, that butterfly flicker on the screen, it was no longer there.

I cannot begin to tell you how devastating this was to both my wife and I. We were completed overwhelmed with a mutual feeling of defeat. We searched and searched ourselves - had we done something wrong? Had we exposed her (the wife) to something that inadvertently had affected this unborn child?

No, we hadn't. We had taken every possible precaution, every step imaginable to ensure the health of both mom and baby.

Ultimately, in a matter of months, she was pregnant again. We relived the same elation, the same overwhelming joy, and began the same precautions, steps of care, doctor visits and the accompanying ultrasounds, and the same preparations.

Sadly, we relived the same tragedy once more. The little butterfly flicker on the screen had gone dark and motionless.

This second event was no less bitter, no less trying and troubling, no less traumatic than the first. We had, again, lost our child before ever holding it.

We again searched ourselves for what we had maybe missed. Ultimately, the wife changed doctors. With this new doctor, we learned there was a chemical issue with the wife that needed to be adjusted.

Fast forward just over a year, and she finds out that, once more, she is pregnant. We again were overjoyed, but this joy was accompanied by a fear that we would again lose another child. We didn't share our news. We didn't tell friends or family. Dealing with the first two deaths were difficult enough, and elected to not plant the seeds with friends and family that, should the terrible events replay once again, would grow into the numerous questions and even accusations surrounding the loss of a child.

We watched the little butterfly flutter once again appear on the ultrasound screen. We watched this child grow. Once we reached the second trimester, we elected to share our great news once more.

We watched the growth and development of our child though the ultrasound technology. We began to see the physical evidence of the child moving and kicking. We were again overjoyed, yet there remained this dark cloud in the back of our minds of the possibilities that could still play out.

We prayed. A lot.

On the last of November 2011, we welcomed a healthy baby boy into this world. No disabilities, no complications, all of his fingers and toes, and a healthy birth weight. As overwhelmed with the myriad of emotions as we were, there were some that held more of our attention than others. First and foremost - we were both thankful and grateful that God had seen fit to bless us with this boy.

We cannot answer why the prior two events happened to us. I can tell you that they were the most difficult times that we as a couple have experienced. At this point, we can only guess; maybe there were things we needed to settle between us. Maybe we had to be forged a bit more together as husband and wife. Maybe it was that my wife's chemistry simply needed to be addressed. At the end of the day, it is not ours to question why, but to remember to give thanks for grace and mercy along with our many, many blessings.

I shared this story to get to here; the conscious decision to enter the doors of an abortion facility, to walk beyond the waiting area, enter the assigned room, and don the gown. To acknowledge that you wish to continue with this process. This is a conscious, yet deplorable decision entered into for no other reason than to end a life.

Maybe this person is looking to escape the responsibilities and headaches that accompany parenthood. Maybe they believed the lies that "it's just tissue". Maybe forging ahead in their new career is what's of greater importance, and a child would undoubtedly hamper that progress.

Regardless the motivation, they are consciously killing their child. The doctors and associated staff performing these procedures know full well they are taking that life.

Each of these will one day stand before God and answer, as Christ himself said "...suffer unto Me the little children, for such is the kingdom of God".

That's partially true. A community will create laws to govern the community. However, a community cannot just be capricious and change legal definitions.

Nature does cause miscarriages or spontaneous abortions. It happens up to 50% of the time and can be medically documented. Nature doesn't make it a switch or ability to terminate, but for all practical purposes women did terminate and have terminated life since the beginning of Time.

Is it ethical to do so? Does the fetus have rights? Does the community have a responsibility to protect those rights (called guaranteed in the USA legal system)?

If you don't like pedophilia then don't be one. You have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own body.

Doesn't seem to work does it? Why does it only work when it comes to murdering defenseless preborn human beings?

God bless you and your wife and family for your witness and commitment to each other and God.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. And congratulations to you and your wife on the birth of your son.

You're going to have to do some exegesis of Exodus 20:13 some day. Why not chose today?
[link to bible.cc]
[link to biblos.com]
We've already established that the word is murder.
[link to biblesuite.com]