Why God must exist | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 32718657 United Kingdom 01/27/2013 02:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33140384 Canada 01/27/2013 02:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Excellent series on this idea: Privileged Planet (Chapter 1 of 12) [link to www.youtube.com (secure)] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33140384 Canada 01/27/2013 02:44 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 8685274 United States 01/27/2013 03:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 03:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274 X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God. Last Edited by Amilius on 01/27/2013 03:49 PM |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 8685274 United States 01/27/2013 04:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274 X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God. With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33102584 Germany 01/27/2013 04:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 8685274 United States 01/27/2013 04:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. Quoting: Amilius The chances for life are much, much higher... What do you think the odds are that a super-being can come from nothing? Given two scenarios, one in which nothing exists, and one in which a super-being just happened to exist, outside of time, and is all powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, etc....which is more likely? Given two scenarios, one in which a universe, such as ours, just happened to exist, "outside" of time, as time is a simply a property of it, and another scenario in which a super-being outside of time made that universe, which is more likely? |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 04:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274 X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God. With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be? My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 04:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. Quoting: Amilius The chances for life are much, much higher... I meant the universe coming to existence and being able to have life on it. |
Lucky Charms User ID: 33146799 Ireland 01/27/2013 04:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. Quoting: Amilius Did he indeed? Where did you get this information? Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this? Which work written by Penrose contains this information? I've read many of his books and I've never seen this. I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations. 'Magically Delicious' |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 04:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. Quoting: Amilius Did he indeed? Where did you get this information? Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this? Which work written by Penrose contains this information? I've read many of his books and I've never seen this. I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations. Just google it. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33102584 Germany 01/27/2013 04:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | There are probably multiple universes, connected like bubbles. Not just one. [link to en.wikipedia.org] Mr. Penrose didn't factor that in. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 23836182 United States 01/27/2013 04:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Lucky Charms User ID: 33146799 Ireland 01/27/2013 04:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. Quoting: Amilius Did he indeed? Where did you get this information? Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this? Which work written by Penrose contains this information? I've read many of his books and I've never seen this. I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations. Just google it. Did you bother to do that? Ok, I'll stop beating around the bush. Penrose never said any such thing. That's all. 'Magically Delicious' |
Lucky Charms User ID: 33146799 Ireland 01/27/2013 04:36 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 8685274 United States 01/27/2013 04:38 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274 X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God. With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be? My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. On what basis can you claim that the universe is subjected to time, rather than time being a property of it? Your claim of god being outside of time can just as easily be attributed to the universe itself. If I understand you correctly, if something is outside of time, you don't have to explain how it came to be, as that would not make any sense. So what I am essentially proposing is that this property can also be attributed to the universe. How you attribute this property does not really matter. Off the top of my head, I'd say the big bang/big crunch hypothesis would suffice. Or, the universe itself is all that exists, and within that existence, we observe evidence of a big bang. However, the material that came from the big bang may not be all that exists, rather, just a bubble emerging from a greater existence. Time only exists within the bubble, or multiples thereof. |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 04:38 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. Quoting: Amilius Did he indeed? Where did you get this information? Do you have a link that isn't a creationist website where we can see this? Which work written by Penrose contains this information? I've read many of his books and I've never seen this. I'd be interested in seeing the full set of calculations. Just google it. Did you bother to do that? Ok, I'll stop beating around the bush. Penrose never said any such thing. That's all. I believe he did unless people on the Internet are lying. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33102584 Germany 01/27/2013 04:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. Quoting: Amilius But how do you know what God is or what he represents? God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts. It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding... |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 04:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. Quoting: Amilius But how do you know what God is or what he represents? God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts. It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding... All I KNOW is that God is the first cause. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 8685274 United States 01/27/2013 04:45 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. Quoting: Amilius But how do you know what God is or what he represents? God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts. It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding... All I KNOW is that God is the first cause. You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33102584 Germany 01/27/2013 04:45 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Lucky Charms User ID: 33146799 Ireland 01/27/2013 04:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | All I asked was were you got that info... Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that. I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim. Have a great day. 'Magically Delicious' |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 05:00 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. Quoting: Amilius But how do you know what God is or what he represents? God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts. It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding... All I KNOW is that God is the first cause. You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head. First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me. |
Amilius (OP) User ID: 31655145 United States 01/27/2013 05:00 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 27172464 United Kingdom 01/27/2013 05:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | All I asked was were you got that info... Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that. I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim. Have a great day. If he didn't then the Internet is lying! You actually believe everything you read on the internet? People like you actually exist? Helped out any Nigerian princes lately? |
Lucky Charms User ID: 33146799 Ireland 01/27/2013 05:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33120536 Germany 01/27/2013 05:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | All I asked was were you got that info... Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that. I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim. Have a great day. If he didn't then the Internet is lying! The calculation is still correct. Anyone who has studied the subject will agree with how remote the chances would have been for our existence to come from nothing. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 27172464 United Kingdom 01/27/2013 05:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | All I asked was were you got that info... Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that. I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim. Have a great day. If he didn't then the Internet is lying! The calculation is still correct. Anyone who has studied the subject will agree with how remote the chances would have been for our existence to come from nothing. Really? Do feel free to explain to us all how the figure of 1 in 10^10^123 was reached then. Be sure to show your working to receive full credit! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 33120536 Germany 01/27/2013 05:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Lucky Charms All I asked was were you got that info... Forget it... I'm derailing, sorry about that. I do recommend you actually read some of his books, then maybe you'll understand why I don't believe he ever made such a claim. Have a great day. If he didn't then the Internet is lying! The calculation is still correct. Anyone who has studied the subject will agree with how remote the chances would have been for our existence to come from nothing. Really? Do feel free to explain to us all how the figure of 1 in 10^10^123 was reached then. Be sure to show your working to receive full credit! If you really ask that question, you're not worth the trouble |