Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU

God did not have an origination point. (S)he invented time and exists outside of it. Therefore God had no beginning and no end. God didn't "appear", God always was. And everything got started because God had a creative thought, and here we are.

If God had a starting point, (S)he would have an end point. And I find that thought disconcerting. As perplexed as you are, always wondering who/what created God, I am equally as perplexed wondering how people could think God was created.

I don't feel like arguing the existence of God, for that's a long process, and at the end while I can display numerous proofs of God (it's been done over and over in philosophy), I can easily prove that I exist by a simple experiment.

Watch the video completely. It's a brief science documentary discussing a pendulum and the motion of it in a predictable pattern based upon simple physics.

If I do experiments with a pendulum, I can prove the existance of time. I can measure the period of the oscilating mass in a predictable way. I can write down my observations. This shows continuity of existence as well as demonstrating physical laws of dimensions, mass, time, etc.

I might think, "All of this perception may be a delusion." however my written data is not the ravings of a madman, but logical, orderly, and can be repeated over and over with the same result.

I might think, "OK, that proves that I exist in an ordered Universe, but not that others exist.". OK, well as a cognizant being, I can then have others repeat my experiment, and they will have the same results if they perform the experiment in the same way, for physical laws do not change. Then looking at their data, and them looking at my data, seeing the veracity of both sets of data and the repeatability of both sets, then we could each conclude, "Well that other being exists, don't they? I am not imagining this reality, for if I were insane, it would be impossible to achieve such uniformity."

However, both observers might be deluded, and so we could have many scientists throughout time doing the same experiment and coming up with the same results, and they have, and so we know this reality exists conclusively. We don't live in an illusion and are not all raving lunatics unable to believe our perceptions.

That doesn't mean there aren't alternate realms and that we're not all in some virtual world cooked up by a Supreme Being. We might be, but if so, then that Supreme Being created physical laws that both govern this Universe as well as pointing to the existence of a Supreme Being.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 08:20 AM

thanks for the reply, but i still cant get my head out of this time paradigm. I just cannot comprehend something that was always there. I keep thinking 'well God MUST have started at some point". If you go back long enough, there has to be a starting point or maybe it is true that our minds are just not powerful enough to comprehend.

I don't know, my head is starting to hurt again

Now here's the problem with using the Bible to prove your assertions as a Christian. For those not reading previous postings I have made, I am a Christian(Christ-follower) but I am momentarily staying neutral out of a sense of philosophy to do not a debate, but a dialectic instead. A debate is largely about having the most persuasive words and less about the search for Truth. Many debates are won by charlatans who merely have the crowd cheering them on.

Example: a sole Christian debating an Atheist in a room of 500 Atheists probably will not win a debate and likewise a sole Atheist in a room of 500 Christians is likely not to win a debate either. A debate is a poor means of discovering the veracity of an idea.

In a debate, when evidence is presented, then those that are facts are not debated. Facts by definition are true.

While someone could debate and say,"The Sun is actually a giant flashlight held by God." and win a debate that way, it's not a fact is it?

Other evidence are theories which explain a phenomena. These are repeatable and over time more and more evidence is gathered in the form of facts. At some point a theory is well honed and there's plenty of facts to support it, then it become a Law and is no longer debated. Take the Law of gravity. No one will debate a law, for we know it's true and hence a fact.

Now a well meaning Christian holds the Bible in great authority. For them and me, the Bible is God's word and has even more authority than a fact. However to an unbeliever it is merely a collection of literature and holds no authority, none more than say all of the works by William Shakespeare.

Both groups can see the undeniable beauty of the language, but there's issues with the meaning of stories. Some elements seem to have a historical basis which can be independently verified. As a matter of fact, it's more authenticated than any other ancient text in history by comparison. Few people would deny that William Shakespeare existed or that he wrote those plays, but many will deny the Bible when there's overwhelming evidence about it by comparison. Hold that thought.

Now when a chest thumping Bible believer cites chapter and verse to a nonbeliever, they're hoping against all odds that the beauty of language or the vehemence of the speaker or both will persuade the unbeliever. It doesn't, for the unbeliever has no frame of reference to the authenticity of Holy Scripture. To them, it's a book of literature about a historical group of people in general and no more valid than any other spiritual writing. If this is how you're witnessing to nonbelievers in general, you won't convince many people and are wasting your time.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:19 PM

So, how the heck can one Christian convince a nonbeliever? It isn't by using the Bible. That's getting the cart before the horse.

99% of the time, when witnessing, we're creating a relationship with another human being. We genuinely care about others, for Jesus said to do very specific things if we are His Sheep.

If an atheist, you could stop listening if the Bible offends you, for I'm preaching to the choir (the Christians) for a moment:
"The Judgment

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25: 34-46

When we do these things in a sincere selfless manner, as many missionaries have done in countless nations, then many other people seeing their good works will say, "Sir or Madam, why are you here doing all of these wonderfully kind things? It's expensive for you to be building schools to educate our children. That hospital is saving so many lives. Those wells you dug for us, we are getting healthier now that you have built them. Why do you do these things for us?".

Now the missionaries can say, "We do it out of love. We don't do it out of reason. We do it because once someone helped us and they were Christians. Jesus told us to do these things. He is our Master. He said it, so we do it. He must increase and we must decrease. We want to share that goodness from our Master with you, if you are interested. We will do these things even if you're not interested, for there is Free Will. It's up to you to listen if interested."

Many will listen then because we're doing what Jesus said to do. Jesus Saves...not us. We are frail beings and make mistakes. Jesus is undeniably kind hearted and good. Seldom will people say the opposite of Jesus.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:12 AM

Now what to do with the atheist who doesn't need our help? They may be better off financially and can do all of those things. They may be better educated.

Well Christians through history have witnessed, not by persuasion with logic, but with kindness. For example, in history many people came out West in America. That West began in places like Kentucky and Indiana, and from there people continued on and on and competed with the Native Americans.

Some first arrivals knew a lot of frontier skills. Some were also Bible believing people and devout Christians. One example are Morovian missionaries. They went out West and not only helped new arriving European descendants (with no life skills suitable for the frontier though well educated) but also First People (Native Americans) too. Both groups were surprised by their kindness. The missionaries were not infallible men and women, just ordinary people doing the right things for the most part.

Many people were converted not by reason but watching very sincere people share their faith. Though unbelievers came out West, many ended up believing because the lifestyle was an admirable one. Even Native Americans who were brutalized by supposed Christians still maintained their faith even in this present generation.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:22 PM

Well some atheists don't believe at all? Some Christians get frustrated with that. Well that's a tiny minority, so why are you so frustrated? Do you really want to convince them by reason? If so, then you must use a frame of reference that is logical, and philosophy is probably the best way to witness to those kinds of nonbelievers.

I think you'll find a true atheist is very very rare. Most people see Nature and well awestruck by the enormous beauty of it. That means the preponderance of them are not atheists but agnostics.

They think it's possible, not plausible that God exists. However the main stumbling point is not that God exists, it's the existence of Evil and the way God in the Old Testament does very brutal things.

Please watch this, even if an atheist or agnostic, for I think you'll at least feel a sense of wonder at Creation, and it's not that preachy or condemning like you're used to Christians being. He makes a mistake and mispronounces Rigel, but that's not a big error.

A lot of agnostics who become friends with Christians who then discuss in calm ways, the existence of God, they are far more receptive to seeing this and talking gently about Creation. In reality, we owe an enormous debt to scientists like Galileo for helping us understand God's Universe because of their devotion to Reason.

They are not the enemy. They are potential believers who know more than we do and if won over, then powerful Christians.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:37 AM

Now how to use philosophy to discuss God with a deeply logical atheist? Well St. Anselm's Ontological Argument is a very fine proof of God.

[link to plato.stanford.edu]

8.2 Formulation 2

"The Fool understands the expression “the being than which no greater can be conceived”. (Premise)

If a person understands an expression “b”, then b is in that person's understanding. (Premise)

If a thing is in a person's understanding, then the person can conceive of that thing's existing in reality. (Premise)

Each thing which exists in reality is greater than any thing which exists only in the understanding. (Premise)

If a person can conceive of something, and that thing entails something else, then the person can also conceive of that other thing. (Premise)

If a person can conceive that a specified object has a given property, then that person can conceive that something or other has that property. (Premise)

Hence the being than which no greater can be conceived exists in reality. (From (1)-(6), by a complex series of steps here omitted.)"

It is hard to argue that this logical proof is not without merit.

And who died and made you hall monitor?

[link to www.philosophyofreligion.info]

Now for those not philosophically minded, here's one explanation of St. Anselm's Ontological Argument.

"If God is that than which no greater can be conceived, Anselm argues, then nothing can be imagined that is greater than God. If God does not exist, though, then something can be imagined that is greater than God, namely a God that does exist.

The hypothesis that God does not exist thus seems to give rise to a logical absurdity: that there both is and is not something that can be imagined that is greater than God. There is, because it’s possible to imagine a God that does exist. There isn‘t, because it’s impossible to imagine something greater than the greatest thing imaginable.

A hypothesis that gives rise to a logical absurdity, though, must be false. The hypothesis that God does not exist, therefore, is false; God exists."

I think that's pretty much it right there ^^^.
Simple fact is Christians and the like don't know for an absolute fact, and scientists don't know for as absolute fact.

Christians can use the bible and history as their proof of existence, then bank on faith, which is what I chose to do.
Scientists can state that something comes fom nothing and it didn't take a God to create nothing, it just happened.

I think the two have more in common then one would think. Scientists and Christians spend ther whole lives searching for the meaning of life, or existence. Each have their own reality. Scientists hold just as much evidence as Christians do. They can't prove there isn't a god. That's just silly. Christians can't prove there is, even with the evidence. It's not absolute.

If there is a god, he isn't going to come down and have a cup of tea. Really, why would he? We've been here for thousands of years and what makes anyone think the end of the world is coming in our lifetime? The end of the world is the proof we are begging for as to the existence of god.

So for Christians, the only way to proved god really exists is for god himself to make a visit, a REAL visit! And for scientists to prove there is no god, they need to find out where nothing comes from, find the begining, before nothing. Lol. They're even confused.

For me personally, there's definety something beyond and I would say a God created the whole thing. I feel it in my soul. A deep seeded feeling that my brain doesn't comprehend. ;) Maybe because I need it to be so? Well, what difference does it make to anyone else? If its my own little fantasy, then so be it. I would much rather discuss it, than argue about it. I find great comfort believing that we exist after this life. I just don't know what that soul transforms into... Which freaks me out. I don't like thinking that this is the end. The children I love so much, to think there is an inevitable end one day to all of it, hurts my heart.

I agree with OP
And for me, there isn't one verse in the bible, nor one atom the universe that beyond a doubt proves the existence, or non existence of God. Guess we just keep praying for a physical visit and keep researching the "nothing". ;)




Last Edited by PENG on 02/04/2013 09:20 AM

In all ages, in all lands, there have been those who seek truth. This seeking is an individual’s search for something more than self, and much more than the confines of this worldly system. It is the seeker, who understands there is more than what meets the eye, who is not afraid and makes the choice to go into the unknown. The process of awaking has begun, the discovery is underway.So if you are bothered by the idea that you can't possibly believe in a God of miracles, mysteries, or divine love and realize, there are no physics, there is no science, which does not first require you to believe the incredible.

Another great thinker is C S Lewis. Here is his famous argument: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?


[link to www.whoisjesus-really.com]
"Is Jesus Christ a Legend, Lunatic, Liar, or Lord and GOD?

In his famous book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.(emphasis: web author)"

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If Jesus were a liar, why would he die for his claim, when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? Christ said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim."

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:21 AM

True but without a DNA test, do you know who your real mother and father are!!?? But I know one thing that is true and without dispute; God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour and God!! And if you don't serve Him, then Satan is your god and lord; and hell will be your eternal home with great great agonies and tormentings forever!!

Last Edited by moses767 on 02/04/2013 12:34 PM

I do understand where you are coming from here... There are so many strong worded passages in the bible, particularly pertaining to belief. The issue with non believers, and their arguments are valid to some point, and I think it's healthy and wise for Christians to not feel attacked, but to debate the issue. There was a great deal of politics during the times the bible was writing, passed down, rewritten. And one could argue that in order to keep a more lawful society, that these words were written for that purpose. It's like saying to a child today, if you steal, you're going to jail. Back then, the bible was the law book, not just a spiritual book. It was a way to create order in a chaotic society.
Imagine if no one believed in god? God has a tremendous amount of power of those who believe. Personally, I think without a god belief, humans are not built to be kind, empathetic, peaceful people. It is this belief. "God" is what has instilled this into human beings. "Atheists" aren't an example of how humans can be civil, because even they are greatly influenced by the Christian society. Christians keep them in order. Lol. Kidding.

Well said. As an Agnostic I am open to the idea of a creator. I've always said that there is no such thing as a true atheist. While there are only 20 major religions there are millions of minor ones, and to be a true atheist you would have to discount those as well. It's easy to just lay out a blanket statement and say that all religion is bunk, but then you fall into the same category as a religious person who discounts all other religions out of hand because they believe in this certain god.

I think that we could all agree in an infinite universe that there are infinite probabilities. And with those infinite probabilities the existence of some form of creator not only becomes highly likely, but a near certainty.

Militant atheists piss me off almost as much as militant christians. When someone says they don't believe as you do, let them be... You'll not win them over by badgering, belittling, and cajoling them.

Lol, is that what Jesus would say? I believe in the OT, God might say that, but idk if Jesus would preach it like that.
Threatening and scaring people with hell is the opposite of what Jesus would do. So you want others to believe in God because if they don't they will suffer in hell? That's not a good argument.

what about if it were possible to reach the outer edges of our universe only to find out that there are many millions more universes out there beyond our own one.

But all life is subjective if you stop and think about it. Life does not exist beyond our own minds, which is why we create our own reality because no one can create it for us. Sounds a little wacky but it's true. Think about it. If you're in a coma, physical life stops existing for you until you "wake up." Your mental life, however, continues on some other plane but you might not remember it. Then again, you might, which is why people are told to talk to their loved ones in a coma because they can hear you.

Nothing in life exists outside of your mind. It is first conceived in your mind, then created in the physical. Cars, computers, airplanes, internet, your house ... were all concepts in someone's mind before they became a reality.

Because of the Law of Free Will, God cannot come down and dwell among us. Not again at least, for God did come to do that as Jesus the Christ (probably named Yeshua or Yehoshua in the Hebrew). God came once to prove it all and offer a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and for all time: past, present, and future. It was sufficient.

If God were to come down and dwell among us, then it break the Law of Free Will, for then seeing the miracle of God on a daily basis 24/7 then there is no belief by Faith only belief by objective observation. God desires to be believed by Faith, and possibly by derived Reason, but not by empirical evidence.

Those who wait for the latter will wait until they take their last breath in all actuality, for seldom in history do miracles happen. And despite miracles happening on a daily basis, and your life is one of them, then people still don't believe.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 09:45 AM

The Native Americans passed their religion down orally, and spent little time arguing over it. Along came the whites with their precious Book, trying to save the savages, but arguing with, and often killing, each other over who's interpretation of The Book was correct. The Natives just shook their heads.

The children, meanwhile, laughed and played together. They understood the message. Be as the little children.

Be like the water, my friend. Pour water in a bowl, it becomes the bowl.-Bruce Lee

Equally well communicated! The vast number of people I have met in college and graduate school were deeply thougtful people who had devoted their lives to very intentional study of many great writings, both the ones they might be passionate about in the Sciences or the Humanities but also reading spiritual texts too.

Some neurscientists would say that because the pineal gland produces an organic compound similar to DMT, then this part of our anatomy is producing chemicals that affect the brain and make us think in mystical ways. It might be where the soul resides, for we know that when someone dies, they have no brain activity, and yet often even if they don't believe in God, they have very complex highly intricate ideas while brain dead. That points to consciousness existing outside the body. I believe that since physicists propose that there are eleven dimensions not the four we think of, that the soul persists in all 11 dimentions at once and so it doesn't need the body. Then the soul might be release at death for an afterlife.

If you believe in the multiverse theory proposed by physicists, then each decision we make could then play out in another multivese. There may be an infinite number of you living in all of them simultaneously. Is that radical idea less believeable than God? To be God is very easy to believe.

Exactly! That's kinda my point, if god came for a visit, that would be it, the end. And "atheists" need that proof to believe. It will never happen. So to argue who is correct, is mute. There are no winners in this battle. Healthy discussion is great and I love to hear both sides, but at the end of the day I just can't reconcile that there is no God. I look outside for proof and its all around. I watch videos like these below, and its fascinating! I didn't say it was proof of god, but damn people it is something to think about!

DBA, after watching the video you posted above, it reminded me of a couple videos I watched that were fantastic. They also mention DNA information, One DNA has enough information to stack library books from here to the moon! Crazy! Anyway, tell me if you have watched all of these. If you haven't, please do. Some are really long and in segments, but I watched everyone and wow! They are worth the watch. I saw them on Netflix.

These are the creatures of evolution. OMG. I hope people watch these videos. Very cool stuff.
[link to www.explorationfilms.com]

I love this one... Has quantum physicists, scientists, etc interviewed also. Fascinating! The Case For Christ
[link to www.amazon.com]

One cannot talk about the First People as if they are one group. In North American alone they make up thousands and thousands of tribes, each with their own languages, customs, and spirituality.

Likewise Christians in North American alone came from many tribes from other nations with a plethora of languages, customs, and spiritual beliefs.

Both are sweeping generalities and stereotypes that marginalize people into tiny boxes, when in reality each human being is uniquely different and dynamic by changing over time.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 10:18 AM

The evidence that god doesn't exist is simply the lack of evidence that he does exist. Atheists don't have faith that god doesn't exist. Because there is no evidence of his/her existence, they are without the belief that he/she does exist.

Hmmm, I disagree with half of that. Our sun, Sol, need not be perpetually conjured up in the minds of 7 billion present souls to exist. It exists outside of our perception. Say one is an isolated tribe and believes in that tribe's mythology about the Sun. Does their perception of shared reality, does that consensus change the physical laws of the nuclear and chemical reactions going on within it? Does it alter the photosynthesis of the plants that equally benefit from it? No.

In quantum physics, we know now that the observer does affect reality. That doesn't mean the Universe falls apart if one is a lunatic and cannot properly perceive reality.

Don'tBeAfraid, thanks for bringing truth and eloquence into the conversation. I agree with your approach in sharing truth in love. It's also reassuring to know that no argument I give for the truth of Christ will win someone over-- unless God is softening that person's heart and mind to receive the gospel. We must be faithful in doing what we've been called to do in Christ and trust Him with the outcome. God can use a highly-intellecual argument to loose the chains of the oppressed or He can use the simplest of scriptures from the mouth of a child to do that same work. God can use my 7 year old daughter as much as a William Lane Craig or Ravi Zacharias.

God is Real. I have faith and couldn't have made it this far in life without God in my life.