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Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

 
miserkocho2

User ID: 17809430
Australia
02/16/2013 03:30 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
imho its a logical progression,just as default contitutionalism was compromised and corrupted into what we see today,an interim political strategy would work toward restoring what we lost,but ultimately evolving towards a free self sufficient non centralised voluntaryists society.

*Blinking*

This doesn't look snarky at all! Give me a moment to shift gears.

<cracking my knuckles and screwing on my thinking hat>

There, all done. So where were we?

I think the problems with non-centralized v8oluntaryist society is the same problems with anarchy in general:

1) Lack of an effective system of conflict management





4) Unsustainability as leaders within the 'non-centralized voluntariyist' society would eventually devolve into factionalism.

5) Vulnerability to outside threats due to lack of organization
 Quoting: J 34504191


im sure you could find videos of stefan molyneux who could articulate it better than me but ill give it a shot.
1) Lack of an effective system of conflict management
when people polarize right and wrong there are almost always extenuating circumstances.thats the purpose of a well informed jury of peers to provide some flexibility to law.again i have absolutely no problem with the foundation of law and the intentions behind it.although im not religious,i find it hard to disagree with the 10 commandments or at least george carlins version.personally the 7 deadly sins is fine also but in a different context.ultimately it would be up to individual provinces,communities etc to test,eventually it may evolve into a more concetrated framework.things like contract law,u could have some mediation tribunal but a transparent information source and a less volatile monetary system,there's really no excuse.either way.an interim system will have to replace the lamestream media.
2) Difficulty creating major projects (bridges, roads, etc)
the problem with the monetary system is the creation of money,not to dilute the market and devalue the currency but to add something essential for the creater good.the money supply has to move with the population,thats one way.health care,there has to be a free market instrument that creates money to cater for it.i know that usually only leads to corruption but again,different information source.as far as maintenance,it should be up to communities to work together,but the major projects,well spent money generates wealth.free market principles apply but also its a completely different world no longer turning this pristine planet into a strip mall.
i gtg ill get back to the others
#444
bill L
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
02/16/2013 04:12 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No, I won't go any further on the trust subject with you, other then this - Not a conspiracy, a universal principle, that can be twisted, but, never broken...

A 'universal principle', huh? Like the speed of light or orange cheeto fingers?

Well, I have no doubt you believe that. But I'm not convinced. Show me the evidence.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


Nope, cannot show you the evidence...

To apply it properly, the evidence would not be left in your hands...Sort of like passing the hot potatoe...

Universal principle is the nature of existence...You are here for the experience, you own nothing...But, you share in common with everyone in the galaxy, the resources of the galaxy, and temporarily use of them...

I have my share based on weights and measures... If I go over that, by getting a charge, a non CAPITAL charge, I have to allow it pass through me for grounding on the public side, and I have to do it immediately...

It is all about balancing...

I know, I can read your mind - another sovereign "ilk" theory... No matter, I know what is what...
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 04:14 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
It's 4am here...

Need some sleep, catch up to you tomorrow...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1246378
South Africa
02/16/2013 07:29 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I stopped reading J's posts and now I find I have more free time to do other things hahaha. I've wasted so much time reading his dumbass posts which are 70 percent of the postings. Freedumb indeed...is this guy for real? hahahaha

J believes in the tooth fairy also hahaha

Hey J why does the deed to your house say tenant?

Also why does a homeowner pay property tax to the government (ooops I mean corporation)?

Watch his lameass answers..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 590644
United States
02/16/2013 09:41 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I stopped reading J's posts and now I find I have more free time to do other things hahaha. I've wasted so much time reading his dumbass posts which are 70 percent of the postings. Freedumb indeed...is this guy for real? hahahaha

J believes in the tooth fairy also hahaha

Hey J why does the deed to your house say tenant?

Also why does a homeowner pay property tax to the government (ooops I mean corporation)?

Watch his lameass answers..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1246378


Actually, in the post above - "J" - finally gets rational and reveals he is capable of some depth of thought.

I wonder whether he has ever investigated Mondragon or Binary Economics...

How the commies stole the credit of a nation without proper bookkeeping...

Or, who originated communism and continues to support the model.

Yeah, slow and deliberate has some charm; balance of power and all that; I knew that. But the economic model is of critical importance and we left any true capitalism well before J was born.
 Quoting: J 34504191


This is sort of my idea of a joke; J didn't write any of the quoted material... Levi Philos

Recreate the model for money; recreate the social structure:
Thread: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments (Page 49)
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 10:25 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I do not have any public trust. However, all my Trusts are recognized by Government.

There is one public trust I access and use to conduct business with the Government J worships at the alter of (with his own image on it, of course).

That trust was set up by His god government for public use, so thanks for that FDR!

As for the trust in his Government, it is fleeting and elastic since the Creator of all of it is an enemy to mankind and is bent on its destruction.

"CONGRESS DECLARES THE BIBLE “THE WORD OF GOD”. 97th Congress Joint Resolution [S.J.Res. 165] 96 Stat. 1211. Public Law 97-280."

While on paper and in law, the Government declares the Bible to be the Word of God, their trust is in Columbia.

Where your trust is, your heart is also.

I have known people to stand in open court and declare "I have no public trust, I do not recognize this court." They then walk out without a word of protest from the Captains bridge.

Frankly J seems like a trust fund kid who thinks he knows everything but in reality only knows that with money, people are easy to manipulate into agreeing with him. He also knows that with money to 'pay the man' the system works very well in defending him when his mouth writes checks on his ego account that he cannot back up physically.

Maybe not, maybe his is just a lonely prick who has to pay French Canadian whores to prove his manhood.

Do not really know, do not really care, I do not trust him or care how he lives his life, that is his right just as it is mine.

Trust or lack of it, easy to prove even in their courtSHIPS, no sovereign status needed.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/16/2013 11:28 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I am my own ruler, anyone claiming jurisdiction over me can prove right now.

Nope. You're subject to our laws. If you're in our country, you'll abide our rules. If you violate them and we catch you, we'll punish you.

Remember, your agreement to our jurisdiction is irrelevant. As that's not a decision you get to make. But one *we* get to make.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191
That's the reason I advise people to read Title 26 and fully understand every word. You've read the entire code right?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/16/2013 11:59 AM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Which is why I value the rights, freedoms and laws that we possess today that protect those freedoms.

Well, I have no doubt you believe that. But I'm not convinced. Show me the evidence.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191


Show me the evidence you have rights. I give you privileges and you mean to tell me you're read all the laws that exist today. If yes did you understand all the language?
J
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United States
02/16/2013 12:08 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
J believes in the tooth fairy also hahaha

Nothing so dramatic. I just recognize the law and the courts are more legally authoritative than you, citing yourself.

And as the plethora of your ilk foolish enough to try to your pseudo-legal gibberish in court ending up in jail demonstrates..

....so does the law and the courts.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/16/2013 12:20 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

Actually, in the post above - "J" - finally gets rational and reveals he is capable of some depth of thought.



My reasoning in this thread is been pretty much the same from beginning to end: objective over subjective in the law. I side with the more objective....where law is established through legislative processes and adjudicated by the courts.

The sovereign citizen believes in the subjective. Where if they make up any pseudo-legal claim they'd like (font sizes on birth certificates, magical 'syntax' incantations, secret statuses, etc) that because they've imagined it, the law and the courts are bound to it.

Nope. You can imagine anything you'd like. But your subjective beliefs do not create objective law. Your imaginary loopholes and secret statuses don't have a thing to do with the law. They're your personal opinions. And when you present your personal opinion AS the law in court.....you generally see very poor outcomes.

If you want to make a legal argument, you need to cite the law and the courts. And overwhelmingly, both contradict you.

Which explains the abysmal record of the 'sovereign citizens' in the legal system.

Its not that complicated.
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 12:28 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
I am my own ruler, anyone claiming jurisdiction over me can prove right now.

Nope. You're subject to our laws. If you're in our country, you'll abide our rules. If you violate them and we catch you, we'll punish you.

Remember, your agreement to our jurisdiction is irrelevant. As that's not a decision you get to make. But one *we* get to make.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34504191
That's the reason I advise people to read Title 26 and fully understand every word. You've read the entire code right?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185



I guess J hasn't read all the laws. I hope he doesn't violate any of the laws because if we catch you, we will punish you.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/16/2013 12:42 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
That's the reason I advise people to read Title 26 and fully understand every word. You've read the entire code right?

My study has focused on all the sections related to the filing and tax payment requirements….say, Title 26, § 6011 to about 6151. And many of the court cases in which 'sovereign citizens' have challenged those section insisting that there is no obligation to pay income taxes.

As Benson, Schiff, Carr, Brown and a litany of others learned....oh, there definitely is.

Remember, and this is fundamental: the pseudo-legal gibberish that you folks tell *each other* doesn't actually have any relevance to the law. As the 'legal principles' (ie: anything written in caps is a corporation or trust) and legal definitions (for example, that the US is only the district of Colombia), aren't recognized by the law or the courts.

So what's the use of a legal argument that you can't use in court?

Nothin'.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/16/2013 12:51 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Also why does a homeowner pay property tax to the government (ooops I mean corporation)?

Sigh...I feel like a grown man kicking a puppy sometimes.

Um, the 'government' isn't a single monolythic entity. It has many distinct layers. The most obtuse being the difference between State and Federal. Ad valorem taxes are collected almost exclusively by State governments or local governments borrowing State authority.

Not by the Federal Government. While the feds have concurrent jurisdiction over every State, they don't collect property taxes within the States as a general rule.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/16/2013 01:03 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Frankly J seems like a trust fund kid who thinks he knows everything but in reality only knows that with money, people are easy to manipulate into agreeing with him. He also knows that with money to 'pay the man' the system works very well in defending him when his mouth writes checks on his ego account that he cannot back up physically.

I'll add 'trust fund kid' to the elaborate and quite bizarre list you guys have made up for me. Lets see,according to the 'list', I'm a government agent, a paid shill of the government, a paid shill of the Southern Poverty Law Center, a paid shill for something called 'quatloos', an 'elite', a Jew (they were a little vague on the spelling), a member of the Illuminati, a communist, a socialist, or lawyer, a domestic terrorist, an IRS agent and oh wait.... a trust fund kid.

You sovereign citizen types do love your labels.

And folks are persuaded by my argument because it makes sense. The law and the courts are more authoritative on the law than you are, citing yourself.

And done!

Its persuasive because its true. The fact that its simple and self evident is just gravy.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/16/2013 01:37 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Frankly J seems like a trust fund kid who thinks he knows everything but in reality only knows that with money, people are easy to manipulate into agreeing with him. He also knows that with money to 'pay the man' the system works very well in defending him when his mouth writes checks on his ego account that he cannot back up physically.

I'll add 'trust fund kid' to the elaborate and quite bizarre list you guys have made up for me. Lets see,according to the 'list', I'm a government agent, a paid shill of the government, a paid shill of the Southern Poverty Law Center, a paid shill for something called 'quatloos', an 'elite', a Jew (they were a little vague on the spelling), a member of the Illuminati, a communist, a socialist, or lawyer, a domestic terrorist, an IRS agent and oh wait.... a trust fund kid.

You sovereign citizen types do love your labels.

And folks are persuaded by my argument because it makes sense. The law and the courts are more authoritative on the law than you are, citing yourself.

And done!

Its persuasive because its true. The fact that its simple and self evident is just gravy.
 Quoting: J 34504191

No labels... just ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you break the law, we will punish you. So be careful who you may steal from. Also don't give me it's a legal form of transfer of wealth.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/16/2013 01:40 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No labels... just ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Clearly Title 26 doesn't say what your ilk think it does. As you consistently lose in court.

As yup, you are required to pay taxes.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/16/2013 01:47 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No labels... just ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Clearly Title 26 doesn't say what your ilk think it does. As you consistently lose in court.

As yup, you are required to pay taxes.
 Quoting: J 34504191

Are you labeling me? You sound like a walking contradiction.
We catch you breaking the law we will punish you.
J
User ID: 34504191
United States
02/16/2013 02:01 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No labels... just ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Clearly Title 26 doesn't say what your ilk think it does. As you consistently lose in court.

As yup, you are required to pay taxes.
 Quoting: J 34504191

Are you labeling me? You sound like a walking contradiction.
We catch you breaking the law we will punish you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185


Seems you recognize that the law is authoritative, and you citing yourself aren't.

You can be taught!

Just remember that if ever the 'sovereign citizen' folks try to find a new sacrificial lamb to test out their latest pseudo-legal gibberish. As these guys are *big* into bold declaration and false bravado....on the internet.

But they won't actually test these theories themselves in the real world. They might try and convince you to test them in their stead however.

Its probably not a good idea to let them talk you into being another Ed or Elaine Brown, another Schiff, Brown or Carr. As these poor, stupid bastards aren't diggin' prison.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32235185
United States
02/16/2013 02:17 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No labels... just ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Clearly Title 26 doesn't say what your ilk think it does. As you consistently lose in court.

As yup, you are required to pay taxes.
 Quoting: J 34504191

Are you labeling me? You sound like a walking contradiction.
We catch you breaking the law we will punish you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185


Seems you recognize that the law is authoritative, and you citing yourself aren't.

You can be taught!

Just remember that if ever the 'sovereign citizen' folks try to find a new sacrificial lamb to test out their latest pseudo-legal gibberish. As these guys are *big* into bold declaration and false bravado....on the internet.

But they won't actually test these theories themselves in the real world. They might try and convince you to test them in their stead however.

Its probably not a good idea to let them talk you into being another Ed or Elaine Brown, another Schiff, Brown or Carr. As these poor, stupid bastards aren't diggin' prison.
 Quoting: J 34504191

Don't steal or you'll be in their with your friends, Ed, Elaine, Schiff, and oothers.
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 02:25 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
Here is an interesting fact;

The U.S. has the distinction of being the NUMBER 1 country, that has the highest percentage of their population behind bars...

For a so-called freedom formed country, the record tells a different story...

There is plenty of profit obviously, in keeping the majority of the country dumbed down, while those in the know, reap the benefits...

A very unbalanced state of affairs...
J
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United States
02/16/2013 02:26 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
on't steal or you'll be in their with your friends, Ed, Elaine, Schiff, and oothers.

Yeah, those poor stupid bastards. Folks like me tried to warn them that all the made up nonsense forwarded by the 'sovereign citizen' folks was useless flotsam.

But they didn't listen. And this morning they had their breakfast served to them through a slot in the door.

While the 'sovereign citizen' folks may believe that whatever silly theories they come up with somehow binds the courts......the courts don't. And this is the grand disconnect. Between what the sovereign citizens *say* is the law. And what the law *actually* is.

The record of failure is so overwhelming, that most of the 'sovereign citizen' folks who are so brave in their declarations *online*, won't dare test their theories in real life.

But they might try to convince you to test the theories for them....knowing full well that you'll most likely go to jail.

But better you than them, right?
J
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United States
02/16/2013 02:30 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The U.S. has the distinction of being the NUMBER 1 country, that has the highest percentage of their population behind bars...

For a so-called freedom formed country, the record tells a different story...

There is plenty of profit obviously, in keeping the majority of the country dumbed down, while those in the know, reap the benefits...

A very unbalanced state of affairs..


You know what...that's a reasonable criticism of the US. And it didn't require a secret handshake, a special code, a certain font type or some secret status.

Nice. See guys...its entirely possible to have a reasonable discussion about the state of affairs in the US without taking a long, desperate draught of conspiracy hooch before you do.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
02/16/2013 02:34 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
No labels... just ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Clearly Title 26 doesn't say what your ilk think it does. As you consistently lose in court.

As yup, you are required to pay taxes.
 Quoting: J 34504191

Are you labeling me? You sound like a walking contradiction.
We catch you breaking the law we will punish you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32235185


i haven't paid taxes since 1998...and why would I?

The Government isn't so much as protecting Me with those taxes as ensuring my compliance to a suicidal imperialistic system.

well, sales taxes i do pay except i kind of consider that a Salad Bar Grazing Fee when i shop at Whole Foods or Contribution to a Dumpster Diving Licence when i frequent Trader Joe's or just a Loss Prevention Penalty Fee for Five Finger Discounts such as Vitamins Batteries Chocolate and Merlot and the Stuff I Return with found sales receipts, etc.
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 02:35 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The U.S. has the distinction of being the NUMBER 1 country, that has the highest percentage of their population behind bars...

For a so-called freedom formed country, the record tells a different story...

There is plenty of profit obviously, in keeping the majority of the country dumbed down, while those in the know, reap the benefits...

A very unbalanced state of affairs..


You know what...that's a reasonable criticism of the US. And it didn't require a secret handshake, a special code, a certain font type or some secret status.

Nice. See guys...its entirely possible to have a reasonable discussion about the state of affairs in the US without taking a long, desperate draught of conspiracy hooch before you do.
 Quoting: J 34504191
Don't steal you won't go to jail!
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 02:41 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
The U.S. has the distinction of being the NUMBER 1 country, that has the highest percentage of their population behind bars...

For a so-called freedom formed country, the record tells a different story...

There is plenty of profit obviously, in keeping the majority of the country dumbed down, while those in the know, reap the benefits...

A very unbalanced state of affairs..


You know what...that's a reasonable criticism of the US. And it didn't require a secret handshake, a special code, a certain font type or some secret status.

Nice. See guys...its entirely possible to have a reasonable discussion about the state of affairs in the US without taking a long, desperate draught of conspiracy hooch before you do.
 Quoting: J 34504191


OK, but, the question remains - why did it get that way ???

IMO, for those answers, we have to go down the conspiracy trail... It cannot be answered by examining law documents, tax codes, etc...

It does not just happen by chance...
J
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United States
02/16/2013 02:41 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

i haven't paid taxes since 1998...and why would I?

The Government isn't so much as protecting Me with those taxes as ensuring my compliance to a suicidal imperialistic system.


If you're earning more than say, $4000 a year or so, you're required to pay taxes. If you are earning that much and haven't paid...you're most likely committing some pretty serious crimes.

So if you're ever caught, I wouldn't fall back on the 'imperialist America' argument or any of the inane babble offered by the sovereign citizens regarding taxes. As they really don't know what they're talking about. And the prison terms for those following their counsel are generally quite long.
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 02:46 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

i haven't paid taxes since 1998...and why would I?

The Government isn't so much as protecting Me with those taxes as ensuring my compliance to a suicidal imperialistic system.


If you're earning more than say, $4000 a year or so, you're required to pay taxes. If you are earning that much and haven't paid...you're most likely committing some pretty serious crimes.

So if you're ever caught, I wouldn't fall back on the 'imperialist America' argument or any of the inane babble offered by the sovereign citizens regarding taxes. As they really don't know what they're talking about. And the prison terms for those following their counsel are generally quite long.
 Quoting: J 34504191

And if you earning more than $100,000 a year, hope you didn't steal it because transfer of wealth won't work in the courts. Please don't use legal mumble jumble gibberish.
J
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United States
02/16/2013 02:47 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

OK, but, the question remains - why did it get that way ???


My opinion? Two things: The drug war and a shift from rehabilitation to simple incarceration.

We have *way* too many harmless pot heads or addicts in our prison system. The war on drugs just hasns't worked. Its cost us more in blood and treasure than it has saved us. I'd probably recommend a wholesale shift from incarceration to treatment. As even a dozen times through rehab is the fraction of the cost of the prison terms we're handing out.

And we've seen a steady climb in the recidivism rates....where we don't give ex-convicts many options but crime once they leave prison. No particular skills, laws that make it really hard to get hired, and a culture that doesn't really offer much in terms of second chances.

If I had the money and unlimited time, felons would be my primary focus. Children, dogs and dolphins have plenty of advocates. But who takes the time to try to help felons become productive members of society and live a full and fulfilling life?

Too few if you ask me.
J
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United States
02/16/2013 02:48 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?
nd if you earning more than $100,000 a year, hope you didn't steal it because transfer of wealth won't work in the courts. Please don't use legal mumble jumble gibberish.

I think the only one who's talking about 'transfers of wealth' is you. So any other strawmen you want to knock the stuffing out of, buddy?
Anonymous Coward
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02/16/2013 02:50 PM
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Re: Sovereign citizens: Is this an accurate portrayal?

OK, but, the question remains - why did it get that way ???


My opinion? Two things: The drug war and a shift from rehabilitation to simple incarceration.

We have *way* too many harmless pot heads or addicts in our prison system. The war on drugs just hasns't worked. Its cost us more in blood and treasure than it has saved us. I'd probably recommend a wholesale shift from incarceration to treatment. As even a dozen times through rehab is the fraction of the cost of the prison terms we're handing out.

And we've seen a steady climb in the recidivism rates....where we don't give ex-convicts many options but crime once they leave prison. No particular skills, laws that make it really hard to get hired, and a culture that doesn't really offer much in terms of second chances.

If I had the money and unlimited time, felons would be my primary focus. Children, dogs and dolphins have plenty of advocates. But who takes the time to try to help felons become productive members of society and live a full and fulfilling life?

Too few if you ask me.
 Quoting: J 34504191

Well then those people who are in prison who didn't have any victims can go after the people who profit and stole their life. Right?





GLP