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REPLY TO THREAD
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SaveTheLivingEntities v.s. Salt: Transmigration of the Soul fact or fiction. Addressing the arguments
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Original Message
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Salt's questions in RED, the answers in GREEN.
Salt: What is Reincarnation? Before the 1960s, it was called "Transmigration of the Soul". This belief is rooted in Eastern religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntites:Transmigration of the Soul is not rooted in "Hinduism". Hinduism is a generic term. Transmigration of the Soul is explained most expertly in the Bhagavad-gita, a 5,000 year old discussion between Arjuna and Krishna on the Battlefield of Kurukshetra. They belonged to the Vedic Civilization and Krishna was revealed to be God himself. In the Vedas, there is no term "Hinduism". There is only Dharma, the eternal occupation, and qualitative titles such as Brahman, Kshatriya Vaishnava etc. Everyone has Dharma, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, the Dharma is there, it is not a sectarian term.
The term "Transmigration of the Soul" never vanished after 1960's, but simply fell aside to more new age beliefs such as "reincarnation". Reincarnation and Transmigration of the Soul differ in that Reincarnation connotes that you will come back as a human being life after life with no cessation or break.
Transmigration of the Soul suggests that your soul migrates from one form of life to another, and ultimately to your eternal form which liberates you from material bondage.
Salt: What does "Transmigraton of the Soul" teach? Basically it taught that at death the soul would be reborn into another animal, human, plant, or god. According to this teaching, the lowest life form was a clod of dirt. There was only one thing worse than that...being reborn as a woman.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:This is false information. Can you cite your sources? This [i]might be correct in certain sectarian and biggotted Hinduism circles of thought, but taking knowledge from them is akin to taking your drinking water from the sewer when there is a pure flowing spring nearby.
What Transmigration of the Soul REALLY teaches is: There are 8 million 400 hundred thousand species of life.
There are 900,000 species living in the water.
There are also 2,000,000 non-moving living entities such as trees and plants.
There are also 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles.
There are 1,000,000 species of birds.
As far as quadrupeds are concerned there are 3,000,000 varieties.
There are 400,000 human species. (Padma Purana)
A living entity (the individual minute soul who inhabits and gives life to the body) migrates through these different species (not all) until by good fortune, fruitive activities, divine providence, or desire one comes to the Human form of life where one can begin to discover his true nature and inquire about the meaning and purpose of life.
As for your idea that the living entity can take birth as a clod of dirt, have you ever seen a clod of dirt grow? Dirt does not have life. Dirt is dead matter.
Being born as a woman is not worse than being born as a so called "clod of dirt". I have never seen that statement supported in any of the vedanta sutras or other highly respected shastras. A woman is a human form of life, and she can take advantage of spiritual knowledge just like a man can. A human form of life is superior to all other forms of life regardless of sex or race.
Salt: Easterners who believed in "Transmigration of the Soul" would often refuse to kill a cockroach because of their belief that the roach could have been one of their ancestors.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:Another false conclusion. Followers of the Vedas refuse to kill a cockroach because they are an individual living entity just like me or you, who has the unfortunate position of being in a cockroach body. We have no right to kill any living being. It is also against the laws of nature. If you kill something, even an insect, you will have to suffer the reactions of your violation of the law of nature.
Salt: Westerners who believe in "Reincarnation" don't have this same regard for the animal and plant kingdom. Basically, their belief is that we only come back as someone else.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:This is true and due to the "new age" movement. They change knowledge so suit their sense gratification.
But their belief is false. It is clear according to all the different authoritative Vedic literatures that we migrate to a different body based on our desires,thoughts, and mode of thinking at the time of death. There are 3 modes of material nature we are conditioned by. The mode of Goodness, the mode of Passion, and the mode of Ignorance.
As a matter of fact, the whole 5th Canto, Chapter 8 of the Shrimad Bhagavatam ( link provided: [link to vedabase.net] )is about how Maharaja Bharata, a king of Bharata Varsa became attached to a deer, and at the time of his death he was absorbed in thinking of this deer and became a deer in his next life. Due to his devotional service to God, he was able to remember why he became a deer and at the time of his death he was given another body as a human to further advance on his path. There is no loss when it comes to personal worship of God. It continues with you when you die and take birth again.
Salt: What the belief in Reincarnation does do is that it denies any form of judgment after death. [..]
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities: This is entirely false also. Mentioned many times all over the Shrimad Bhavatam, which is called The Spotless Purana by the most advanced Vedic scholars, is Yamaraj the Superintendent of Death.
Yamaraja as the superintendent of death, has to judge the criminal living entities who have committed sinful activities throughout their life at the time of each death. Consequently Yamaraja is expected to be most expert in judicial matters. Although Yamaraja is a controller, he is only a departmental controller of a few living entities. There are other demigods who control many other departments, but above them all is one supreme controller, Krishna. Krishna is a qualitative term for God which means "He who is ALL attractive".
He is in charge of your judgement at the time of death. This also doesn't clash with the bible verse.
Salt: Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed unto man to die once, then judgment." Since the Bible is God's spoken word to man, then this verse should emphatically prove that reincarnation is a myth.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:I've seen this verse from the Bible quoted many times and I never see an issue or conflict with this verse if taken from the correct context of Transmigration of the Soul.
"It is appointed unto man to die once, then judgement". Yes, this is true. Humans die only once, and after that death they are judged by Yamaraja the Superintendent of Death. After that judgement, they are placed into another body by the material energy according to their past deeds.
This next life could be in a body that is in Heaven the abode of Indra, it does not mean they have to take birth here again on Earth.
Salt: What are some other Bible verses that plainly show "Reincarnation" to be a lie. How about Second Corinthians 5:8 which says We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. What does this mean? That at death, believers in Christ are immediately in the presence of God..their bodies go to the grave but their spirit and soul go to God. Non-believers go to a place to await judgment.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:In the proper context of Transmigration of the Soul and the understanding of devotional service, this verse again does not disprove or conflict with Transmigration of the Soul.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
In context to Transmigration of the Soul, this is the ultimate goal. This means that one should be willing to give up his material body forever, and obtain his constitutional position as a part and parcel of the Lord. When one is in his original position, he no longer takes birth in this material world in a material body. He has attained perfection and has a spiritual body that is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. This is the ultimate goal of Devotional Service to God.
Salt: The goal of reincarnation is to work off all bad karma until the "sound of silence" (the primordial state of the universe) returns once more. But there is a problem here. To believe that souls are working off their bad karma and gathering good karma, assumes that people are learning and improving. Things are getting better and each succeeding life is more enriched. By every rotation of the wheel, souls are getting closer to Nirvana. That is false.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:False. The goal of Transmigratino of the Soul is to end the cycle of karma. You cannot end the cycle of karma by working off the bad karma and gather good karma. Lifetime after lifetime, one accrues good and bad karma, and you have to suffer or enjoy the fruits of your activities. This is called Karma-vada philosophy.
The only way to end your karmic cycle is to Transcend good or bad karma by partaking in Devotional Service to the Lord and his pure devotees. You can render devotional service to Jesus and his pure devotees and derive a greater benefit than trying to render pure devotional service to God himself. He is pleased more when you try to render devotional service to his devotees than when you try to approach him directly.
Karma and Transmigration of the Soul does not connote that your life is getting better and better after each life, and that you are getting closer to some "Nirvana". Actually, one should not aspire for Nirvana. Nirvana is a voidistic philosophy by which one ceases all his suffering by giving up any form of body and remaining in the void. But one cannot remain in the void forever because one has spiritual senses and these senses always desire gratification. By this process, one can fall down into the material world and take on another material body.
Salt: To forever disprove that theory, all we have to do is visit India. That is the nation where reincarnation has been taught so forcefully for the longest period of time. There is where bad karma has been worked off and good karma has been building for centuries. Millions of people should be living easier and easier lives as they climb to higher life forms. Are they? No. India bears tragic witness to the failure of such a philosophy. Instead of being a glowing light for the world, India agonizes in rampant poverty, starvation, suffering and chaos. Its suffering increases daily. Millions of poor souls quietly despair and prepare to die, hoping that something better will be found in the next life.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities: This argument is pretty weak in the context of the true understanding of Transmigration of the Soul and Karma.
As previously mentioned, you cannot " work off " bad karma by building up "good karma". One commits acts that reward good and bad karma throughout their entire lifetime. You simply suffer or enjoy from each of those different reactions in the next life.
Millions of people in India do not believe in Transmigration of the Soul because they understand the science, but because it's cultural tradition just like in America we have cultural and family traditions of being one religion or one political party or another.
95% of the people who claim to be "Hindu" are actually atheists because they believe in so many different Gods instead of one Absolute and Supreme God which is clearly stated in the vedas.
It is also stated in the Vedas that one who worships demigods as the supreme god is no better than an atheist. Therefore, most people are still accumulating good and bad reactions from Karma.
You must go to the parts of India where the pure philosophy of the Bhagavad-gita and The Shrimad Bhagavatam are being kept in their spotless condition to see any purity or beauty or lack of poverty.
Places such as Vrindavana, the Land of Krishna [link to en.wikipedia.org] and Mayapura the land of Shri Krishna Chaitanya [link to en.wikipedia.org] here is a beautiful photograph of how spotless these areas are. [link to en.wikipedia.org]
Salt: Reincarnation is Illogical: A young man proudly announced to an older man, "I am a firm believer in reincarnation. It has all the answers for me." "Really?" asked the older man. "Tell me about it so I can believe it too. How many times have you been reincarnated?" "Uh, I don't know," stammered the youth. "What were you before you got to this point?" "I don't know." "What will you be next time?" "I don't know." How many more times must you go around before you are perfected?" "I don't know." "Where can you go to get the answers?" "I don't know." "Then how can you say it has all the answers?" asked the older man. "It doesn't have any answers. I will just stay with the Bible. Its truth is clear, plain and invites investigation. It has all the answers for everyone."
In reincarnation there are no answers. And where is the proof? The explanations that it offers us are totally lacking. The brain just cannot logically accept some of the things it teaches.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:Another weak argument using a false story. Why would a young man who has no knowledge of the answers of Transmigration of the Soul be an authority? You wuoldn't ask a 3rd or 4th grader about Calculus or Trigonometry would you?
There are advanced answers that are easily provided. I shall address each of your talking points brought up in your fictitious story.
"How many times have you been reincarnated?" I have Transmigrated from one body to another since time immemorial due to my forgetfulness of the Lord and my ignorance. I have had an innumerable amount of bodies in one of the 8 million 400 thousand species of life in this universe.
"What were you before you got to this point?" As a conditioned living entity, I am hampered by 4 defects, one of which is forgetfulness. I cannot even remember what I had for dinner 1 week ago, much less another life in another body. I forget where I place my keys for my car sometimes. How could I remember what I was in a previous life without the divine grace of the Lord who resides in my heart and watches me throughout my whole journey? I can only accept the word of the shastras and tell you that I was one of the 8 million 400 thousand species of life in this universe. It is likely I was a human in my last life because I have been so fortunate to come into contact with this supreme spiritual knowledge and take shelter of the Lord.
"What will you be next time?" I am not a psychic or a master vedic astrologer so I have no sure way of knowing. My goal is to end my cycle of birth and death and attain a spiritual body in the eternal abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This spiritual body is Eternal, full of Knowledge and full of Bliss. I can only attain this goal by rendering devotional service to the pure devotees of the Lord and by chanting the holy names of the Lord. Otherwise my body will be decided by my mode of material nature, and my thoughts and desires at the time of death.
"Where can you go to get the answers?" The answers are all provided for by God himself, in the revealed scriptures known as the Shastras, such as the Bhagavad-gita, the Shrimad Bhagavatam, and the Chaitanya Charitamrita. I cannot manufacture an answer myself, I have to go to someone who possesses perfect knowledge. The only people who possess perfect knowledge are those who accept perfect knowledge from God himself and transmit it down unchanged through an unbroken line of Disciplic succession with the goal of preserving the pristine condition of knowledge.
"Then how can you say it has all the answers?" I didn't answer " I don't know " for any of the questions. I have perfect clear and concise answers for those questions.
Salt: For example, reincarnationists teach:
For example, reincarnationists teach:
*That the world's population is basically stable. One Hindu writer said, "As one dies, another is born to take his place."
*Even when war or natural disaster reduces the population in one place, other places are experiencing prosperity and population growth. Thus overall, the world's population remains stable.
*There will, therefore, always be just enough souls to be reborn into all infant bodies, for there is a corresponding number of deaths and births.
*The human soul is not created but is eternal. Thus no new souls are being created to enter the cycle of rebirths.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:This is not true. God is unlimited. He has unlimited parts and parcels, and we are those parts and parcels, the individual living entity. If God could not produce unlimited Souls, then how great would he really be?
It is stated in the Chaitanya Charitamrita that even if God liberated all the Souls in this universe and brought them to him in his Spiritual abode, he could immediately fill the universe back up with more living entities.
Population will rise and fall based on how many people get a chance to be a human in this life. But you cannot count the population of all the SOULS on the planet because every non moving living entity such as tree and plants, every insect and reptile, every bird and quadreped, and every human has a Soul that migrates after their death.
One cannot even count the hairs on his head, how would he know what the population of all the souls are on this planet? Only God knows.
I want to single out this specific point here also:
*The human soul is not created but is eternal. Thus no new souls are being created to enter the cycle of rebirths.
There is no "human soul". There is only a Soul, a living entity. It has no material designation. It is purely spiritual. A Soul IS eternal and is not created. But there is no term to describe how we enter into being correctly.
God is so powerful that he can make it seem as if we have existed for eternity, even if we have not. We are manifested into eternal existence. This is his inconceivable power.
Salt: *When a soul is sufficiently purified, it is absorbed back into "being" (out of our world into Nirvana).
The problems in such teaching are obvious: First, if no new souls are being created, yet the number of old souls are being absorbed back into "being," it should follow that the world population is decreasing. This is not true. Instead there are more people alive in this present generation than in any previous one.
Response
SaveTheLivingEntities:I believe I have already addressed this issue further up in another response, but I'll reiterate it again.
In the Bhagavad-gita Chapter 2 text 12 (BG 2.12 [link to vedabase.net] Krishna says "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."
In the purport it further states: In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanishad as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanishad, it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities.
Innumerable means without number, uncountable, infinite, unilmited.
It doesn't matter if 1 soul or 1 million souls are leaving. There are innumerable amounts of living entities in our entire universe, which covers more than just our planet. Maybe they are on earth at one time, and maybe not. We do not decide population.
Salt:Reincarnation is Unjust: Reincarnation says that, in life, each of us is responsible for our own actions. Yet we are not. In death, the personality is extinguished, and a new personality comes back into the world to pay the burden or karma. The new personality knows nothing, but has to pay for everything. This is unjust.
[...]Let's assume that in 1960 (after a few short lives as a bug, a snake, three mice and a dog) Hitler is reincarnated as a crippled baby girl in New York City named Ruth Jones. Ruth has no idea that she is really Adolf Hitler reincarnated or that she is suffering for the crimes of the Nazi Fuhrer. It is at this point that karma justice breaks down completely. Hitler is gone, and his personality actually ceased to exist in 1945. Little Ruth now bears the massive burden of Hitler's karmic debt. She did nothing wrong, but karma strikes here anyway!
And little Ruth is only the first in a series of 60 million miserable lives spawned by the evil of Hitler. Ruth has to die in distress to let the next body pay for more karma. Now Hitler has affected the lives -- not just of 60 million who died in the war, but 60 million reincarnated people who are paying for the past deeds of their predecessors.
Response:
SaveTheLivingEntities:This argument is also very weak. A person suffers or enjoys according to his or her activities in their past life and this life.
Just because little baby Ruth who was Hitler in a previous life doesn't remember she committed all those atrocities doesn't mean she shouldn't suffer or enjoy the reactions of those activities.
An example is: If you break the Law and steal a car or bike but you honestly didn't know that stealing was bad, you can still go to jail or prison even if you were ignorant of the laws.
Similarly, just because you don't remember that you broke the laws of nature doesn't mean you shouldn't be punished for your misdeeds. Pleading ignorance is not a valid excuse. Even though she may not remember the personality of Hitler, the individual soul who committed the misdeeds is still the same living entity, and still carries over his or her spiritual qualities.
That's it for now. I'll address more of your comments and concerns if you decide to reply back. Please note that I'm not trying to belittle you in any way shape or form, I'm just trying to refute your arguments which you believe are unanswerable or the ones you have gross misconceptions about.
Thank you for taking the time if you read this.
Your friend and lowly servant of the Lord, SaveTheLivingEntities
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