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JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
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Original Message
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Thank you for checking out this thread and please forgive the initial "wall of text"!
This thread is the result of my invitation to, what appears to me, to be a JW apologist i met on DGN's thread:
"Re: Are God's people organized or scattered and confused?'
Initially I had asked DGN the following question:
"DGN, could you please show us where Scripture teaches us that Jesus is the Archangel Michael?"
DGN did not reply, however what appears to me to be a JW apologist did answer. I asked this person (Anonymous Coward 10858311) to join me in a public debate regarding our doctrinal differences...to wit: this ac accepted my offer!
My hope is to employ a spirited but certainly *respectful* exchange. PLEASE, all, if any, who would like to join the exchange are more then welcome to share your facts and opinons...but PLEASE, may I ask that courtesy and respect be used by all at all times...just because we have differences does not mean that we can't employ a gracious and considerate attitude to one another.
Ok, well start with our last exchange on DGN's thread:
__________________
ac - please answer this reply:
"we are explicitly told in Hebrews 2:5 that the world is not (and will not be) in subjection to an angel. .... Christ the glorified God-man will reign supreme (Revelation 19:16). Now, if no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5), then Christ cannot be the archangel Michael, since Scripture repeatedly says Christ is to be the ruler of God's kingdom ..."
Quoting: jdb
I've seen Michael the Archangel brought up before, always with the same hint of 'taunting', yet never once felt moved to do research about Michael the Archangel. It's obvious there's not going to be much we're going to be able to find out about him, isn't it? Look what any of the scanty Bible mention of angels has given rise to in the way of fanciful portrayals in art, etc. Because we know so little about angels, many feel a need or at least feel free to lavish them with imaginary details. Why don't you take on that phenomenon about which to straighten the record? Is it because you wouldn't want to offend anybody or mess with their fond delusions unless they were a Jehovah's Witness?
So if we're going to "debate" this, i'm going to feel free to take all the time I need to research or whatever. You sound like you think you have the smoking-gun-issue of your Watchtower -hating dreams, And besides probably only have to cut and paste stuff you've already posted before.
It seems like kind of a straw-man issue. On one side we have the implication that the whole wt theology is based on M. the A. and will come crashing down with the removal of that 'linchpin'. On the other hand, there's the implication that anyone else out there actually gives a rip whether someone is 'in error' over the 'famous', and 'pivotal' Hebrews 2:5.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311
Thank you for your reply ac and I understand your terms - for now I will start a new thread and copy and paste the aforementioned questions and then begin with an answer to this reply.
Thank you very much for committing your time and effort to our search for Truth!
_______________________ Begin
Again, Thank You ac for your reply and thank you for committing your time and effort to our mutual search for The Truth!
I would like to note right up front, that I am committed to communicating with you and everyone else, with a spirit of respect and humility. I believe with all of my heart that pride is the worst thing that can happen to a person! I will guard against such, but if you ever receive anything I say as arrogant, please try to give me the benefit of the doubt…but also, please do bring it to my attention and I will do my best to change my tone or approach!
As for taunting you...NO! I did not nor will not deliberately taunt you for any reason!
As for researching Michael the Archangel…I agree, since Michael is only mentioned a handful of times…there’s not a lot of research we can do on him, however, this begins to highlight my contention, that perhaps the watchtower, in light of what little information there is about him in The Bible, has made him out to be more than he is…an Archangel! Nevertheless, you move on from your mention of Michael to pointing out fanciful portrayals of angels (rightly so) and noting that:
“many feel a need or at least feel free to lavish them with imaginary details.”
I contend (respectfully) that this is exactly what the watchtower has already done with Michael by turning him into Jesus!
Again with respect, I don’t think our current point of contention requires us to take on the imaginary details of the angels proper! I do, as it relates to my efforts to please The Most High God in pursuing holiness and righteousness worry about offending people, whether they are JW’s or anyone else…saved or not! I try but know that I do fail…but I won’t stay there…I will confess, ask forgiveness and move on!
I understand that you may require time to research your answers…as I am sure I will as well! Can we agree that after we take time to research questions that we “ping” each other with a message so we know the other has responded?
Your comment: “[that] I think I have the smoking gun issue of my watchtower-hating dreams…” is a bit unfair – if I didn’t care for you or any reading this thread, I wouldn’t bother!
As for cutting and pasting…YES…why not? It seems the presupposition is that because I cut and paste passages or answers from text somehow voids an answer doesn’t make any sense to me! The words are the words…as well as a huge time saver!
There is no “straw man” argument taking place on my part! Nevertheless, the issue of Jesus and Michael the Archangel *is* an enormous as it relates to the watchtower *and* as it relates to all JW’s, because my contention is that unless one acknowledges and receives Jesus for Who He said He Was/Is – salvation cannot be ascertained! So…it is the “linchpin?” I don’t know…but I do believe that the truth of that one particular issue in and of itself could devastate membership of the watchtower…so yes, it is a very important issue!
Regarding Hebrews 2:5 and whether anyone could “give a rip”…I (respectfully) think is very telling! The Word tells us in Hebrews 2:5
“For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.”
And then as it rests next to Rev 19:16
“On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”
Makes it clear that Jesus will Reign! Angel(s) will *not*!
I think we both must agree that the Ultimate and Final Standard to which we much measure our answers to, is The Word of God! Yes?
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