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Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
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[quote:A_Historian:MV8yMDc1NjkwXzM1MDEzNjk2XzFFMjQ1NzlE] [quote:Dutch 1568275:MV8yMDc1NjkwXzM1MDExOTg0XzQ4NjQ4ODQ2] [quote:A_Historian:MV8yMDc1NjkwXzM1MDA0Njk4XzU5MkI2Qjkz] [quote:Dutch 27260028:MV8yMDc1NjkwXzM1MDAyMjc2XzI3MjlDMUE=] [quote:A_Historian:MV8yMDc1NjkwXzM0OTk3NDYyX0EzM0ZERENG] I had to go out shopping but I am back. So, now you want me to prove an event did not happen? The standard version? The one where evil Nazi's can magically cremate a body in 20 minutes when today it still takes over an hour? No Dutch, it is up to you to prove that fantasy is real. Start by refuting this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation Modern crematory fuels include oil, natural gas, propane, and, in some areas like Hong Kong, town gas. However, coal and coke were used until the early 1960s. Modern cremators have adjustable-control systems that monitor the furnace during cremation. These systems automatically monitor the interior to tell when the cremation process is complete, after which the furnace automatically shuts down. [b][u]The time required for cremation varies from body to body, and, in modern furnaces, the process may be as fast as one hour per 45 kg (100 lb) of body weight.[/u][/b] Once you can prove how the German's managed to pull that off we can go on to oh....gas chambers or something. [/quote] Hahaha, this is like having a discussion with a 6 year old. Read again. Nowhere in my earlier posts have I asked you for proof of an event that according to you didn't happen. Nowhere. All I have asked you is to tell us then what you do believe happened. No proof needed for your theory for now. Just start by telling us what, as you so boldly stated earlier, really did happen (to the Jews). Then we can work from there. Now, to refute your argument about the crematoria. Like so many revisionists you very cleverly use data from civilian now-a-day crematoria, which job is to cremate one body at a time IN A COFFIN, with industrial crematoria used by the Germans. This data cannot be used to compare. Maybe you should read the work from Jean-Cloude Pressac. From Wiki: Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps. Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2] Here is a link to the whole book for you to read. Especially interesting are all the original documents he found for orders of gas-thight doors, the number of times he found original documents with the word gaskammer in them etc. http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/ Now I am off to bed, it's past midnight here. Looking forward to your answer, and finally your opinion on what really happened to the Jews. Were any of them killed according to you? [/quote] Pressac was a pharmacist who was hired by the Klarsfeld Foundation to do what was termed the definitive study of Auschwitz. Why they chose him is beyond me as he had no special training in the area of forensics or even history. His work contained many conclusions that did not support the mainstream court historians position so consequently his work is not cited as fact anymore. Everything you could possibly want to know about the imaginary gas chambers of Auschwitz can be found on Fritz Berg's website. It is one of his unique areas of study. http://www.nazigassings.com/ As far as the cremations go. Are you really claiming that 70 year old coke fired ovens can cremate a body faster than modern computer controlled gas fired incinerator type crematory ovens? Really? Not only faster but in 1/3 of the time? Did they even have blower motors? Now as to where the Jews went. I think all can agree that Germany wanted them out and had worked toward that end all the way back to the Haavara Transfer agreement and the Rublee Wohlthat Agreement. When the Germans and Soviets co-occupied Poland the majority of the remaining Jews migrated to the Soviet sphere of influence via an open border policy with Germany. Some joined the Red Army, others assimilating into Soviet daily life and still others into the Gulag system. When the German Soviet agreement ended, Jews could no longer cross back into the German side. Therefore statistically, they were gone and the easiest way to account for them is to claim the Germans killed them rather than their having become ultimate prisoners of the USSR. [/quote] If you read the reports of experts on the German crematoria ovens, you can see that - apart from being industrial ovens instead of civilian every day ovens - you would know the following. First of all, to start the oven, and the first body / bodies, would indeed take longer. But the thing about continiously using the ovens, the heath from the previous cremated bodies, would accelerate the process, and demanding less and less fuel to keep the ovens going. Contrary to now a day ovens, where an oven is used to cremate 1 body at a time, the Germans used to cremate several bodies at the same time. So that also explains why on they could dispose of more bodies in the same time compared to the normal crematoria. And finally you'll find that the Germans, unlike the rules in normal crematoria, wouldn't wait untill the whole body was completely cremated before putting the next body in, again speeding up the process. Attached a link to an official war time document from Topf and sons, the company who made the ovens, about their capacity. http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/topf-8-9-42.jpg http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/ And regarding your answer to where the Jews went...for An Historian you would be better off studying again if that is your explanation. The first mass deportations from Jews from Germany and the occupied countries didn't start till the end of 1941. Well recorded, not only by the Germans, but also by the occupied countries. By which time the Germans had already invaded the Soviet Union, thus making migration to the Soviet Union impossible. [/quote] The cremation ovens at Auschwitz were typical crematory ovens. My comment about bakery ovens was merely to indicate that they are of the same basic style. As far as operation…they were designed to cremate a body not in a coffin, which would be inserted onto a kind of grille and be reduced to ash and bone by indirect superheated air created in another part of the oven. These bodies were not cremated by incineration such as some today’s modern systems as shown here. http://www.deep-six.com/deathweb/page223.htm So the claim by some holocaust supporters that fat generated by the bodies’ acts as fuel to further burn new bodies is wrong as it is impossible for the fat to reach the flames. True, there were probably attempts to put multiple bodies into each muffle - perhaps two or three at a time, in no case would the dimensions of these particular muffles allow for more. But if it takes X amount of time to burn one body, it will take 3X the amount to burn three. If it takes 30 minutes to reduce a body to ash and bone, 30 minutes with three bodies will not produce three groups of ash and bone. True also is the fact that while the fat from burning bodies will allow the middle stage of cremation to proceed more or less on its own. It will not assist the end. High heat is required at the beginning of the cremation cycle, to ignite, and at the end, to reduce the remainder of the body proteins (minus the burnt off fat) to ash. According to a study done by the Cremation Society of Great Britain, Cremations take longer than incineration. Their data states that it takes 40 minutes to reduce a body to bone, and another 20-30 minutes to reduce the bone to ash. What also needs to be taken into account is the massive piles of coke that would need to be on hand to continue the so-called constant burning of Jews. In the other thread I created regarding the Nazi death marches, there is a link to over ninety images of the Auschwitz camps. Nowhere in any of those images do we see any large stockpiles of coke or coal that would have been needed to keep the flames belching continually. Here for example is an aerial image taken in August 1944 which would have been at the height of the gassing and cremation of the Hungarian Jews that began arriving in May, 1944. http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/imint/images/09-1305a.jpg Do you see anything out of the ordinary? Lines of prisoners headed to the gas chambers or massive piles of coke? Now let’s address your statements regarding Jewish losses. Here is your reply to my post: [color=blue][i]And regarding your answer to where the Jews went...for An Historian you would be better off studying again if that is your explanation. The first mass deportations from Jews from Germany and the occupied countries didn't start till the end of 1941. Well recorded, not only by the Germans, but also by the occupied countries. By which time the Germans had already invaded the Soviet Union, thus making migration to the Soviet Union impossible.[/i][/color] I see what ya’ did there and I am sure the readers did as well. You are either unaware of or chose to forget all the efforts that the Germans made to help resettle the Jews as early as 1933. For the best reading on that particular topic I would suggest both you and the casual observer read Ingrid Weckert’s “Jewish Emigration From the Third Reich which is available online here. http://www.scribd.com/doc/33501821/Jew-Emigration-From-3rd-Reich-Ingrid-Weckert As far as where the Jews who migrated into Poland ultimately ended up I offer this paper by Prof. Tomasz Strzembosz, Polish historian and Professor of the Catholic University of Lublin and the Institute of Pblitical Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN). Author of many publications regarding Polish and Soviet relations. http://www.antyk.org.pl/ojczyzna/jedwabne/strzembosz.htm Brief quotes from his work… TREASON IN THE DAYS OF DEFEAT The Polish population, apart from a small group of city communists and an even smaller one of village communists, received the Soviet aggression and the system brought by it in the same way as they had received the German invasion. This is confirmed by literally thousands of various testimonies. The participation of Polish peasants in the so-called selsoviets (village councils) does not mean anything, because these were purely "decorative" bodies. The real power rested with the executive committees, and especially with their supervisory party and police apparatus. On the other hand, the Jewish population, and especially Jewish youths and the city poor, participated en masse in giving welcome to the invading army and in introducing the new order, also by violent means. This is confirmed as well by thousands of Polish, Jewish and Soviet testimonies; there are official reports of the C-in-C of the Association for Armed Struggle [ZWZ, later the Home Army],General Stefan Grot-Rowecki, there is the [famous] report of the emissary Jan Karski, there are accounts written during and after the war. After all, even the [earlier] works of Jan T Gross speak about these facts; Gross based his clear and undisputable conclusions on the materials preserved in the Hoover Institution in the States. The Soviet Army was welcomed with enthusiasm not only in the territories occupied formerly by the Wehrmacht, but also in the Eastern Borderlands, where the Germans never arrived. What's more, those "guards" and "militias", growing like mushrooms right after the Soviet aggression, consisted in the main part of Jews, And not only that. Jews undertook acts of rebellion against the Polish state by taking over towns, organizing there revolutionary committees, arresting and executing the representatives of the Polish state authority and attacking smaller or, sometimes, quite large (like in Grodno) units of the Polish Army. And here is a quote from [b]War History Online[/b] http://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured-article/jews-in-the-gulag-after-wwii.html Jews who found themselves behind the Iron Curtain, especially in Russia, now found themselves under a completely different type of oppression – an oppression in many ways as dark as German oppression. To Stalin anyone who had contact with the virus called “the West” was sent to Siberia. Even Russian soldiers who fought for Mother Russia, but had the misfortune of being captured by the Germans – and who somehow survived that misfortune (only 20-40% of Russian prisoners survived; 3.3 million died) — were sent to Siberia by Stalin. [/quote]
Original Message
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link to en.wikipedia.org
]
Yeah, I know I'm quoting Wikipedia here but come on you morans...there are still idiots out there that deny the Holocaust even occured?!
So I'm thinking, what makes these people think this way? Are they nasty and unpleasant or are they uneducated, uninformed?
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