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sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
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[quote:Dr. Astro:MV8yMDc3MjU5XzM1MDcxMjcyXzMwREYxQ0M0] [quote:Anonymous Coward 29871220:MV8yMDc3MjU5XzM1MDU1NTc3X0IwNTgzQUY5] [quote:Dr. Astro:MV8yMDc3MjU5XzM1MDUzMTczXzk1NTcwOUUw] [quote:Anonymous Coward 29871220:MV8yMDc3MjU5XzM1MDQ2NTQ5XzUzMThDMjYz] This brings up an issue that, without expertise in the field of astronomy, I have been wondering about Hydra. Not sure what your background is or if you can answer this but the question is: There is much discussion of 'everything being exactly where it is supposed to be'. But when astronomers take measurements on the position of celestial bodies, aren't they made in comparison with other celestial markers? In other words, are the measurements being made of only what's going on in the sky or are they actually accounting for how the sky relates incrementally to earth markers? [/quote] As Hydra pointed out, permanently polar aligned telescopes depend on the earth's physical orientation. And indeed, the celestial markers themselves can be measured with respect to the earth's rotation: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2072491/reply34897909 When done properly, it is clear that the earth's orientation is normal. A similar method can be used to measure the sun's position as well, and indeed I'll give that another go this weekend. [/quote] Thank you for joining in to clarify this Astro. I think I’ve got it now: The North Celestial Pole (NCP) is the point in the sky around which all the stars appear to rotate. The location of NCP is dependent on the polar axis of earth: if the polar axis of earth changed, the NCP would also change. [/quote] Correct! [quote:AC] Therefore, measuring the NCP against other celestial markers CAN determine if the earth’s polar axis has moved. And your threads [i]“Axial rotation measurement anomaly *Update on pg 21 - Problem Solved*”[/i] and [i]“There is no physical "pole shift." (Update: There is still no physical "pole shift.")”[/i] do appear to show that NCP is in the same place as always in relation to other celestial bodies. We haven’t had an earth ‘tilt’ or shift’ based on this data. [/quote] Bingo! [quote:AC] I also understand that the sun has not moved position in the sky relative to other celestial bodies from your research posted in the threads [i]“The sun is right where it should be in the sky!”[/i] and [i]“The sun is still right where it should be in the sky!”[/i]. [/quote] Three for three! [quote:AC] If, for a moment, we could use Occam’s Razor here and assume that just [b]one[/b] of the thousands of people across the planet reporting a change in the sun’s position relative to a fixed earth marker like a window is actually observing accurately, we would indeed have a new and fascinating hypothesis to explore. Scientists base hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with available scientific theories. Is it not possible, then, that there is data and theory yet to be examined that could explain the observations being made by so many about the sun’s change in position? We know through work like yours Astro what is [i]not[/i] causing the phenomenon, but the question remains – what [i]would[/i] cause it? [/quote] Well let's look at a specific example from recent history. In January 2011, the sun appeared to rise two days earlier than expected in Greenland. This was reported by multiple news sources and appears to be a genuine report. As I said at the time (beating the media by several days - they were all saying it was "ice melting lowering the horizon" which was BS), the sun's apparent position when it is rising or setting is greatly affected by atmospheric refraction. In fact, under normal conditions, atmospheric refraction is half a degree at the horizon and the sun itself is half a degree wide, so every time you see the sun just touching the horizon it is actually completely below the horizon in reality. The only reason you see it is because of the atmosphere, and because atmospheric refraction rapidly decreases with altitude over the horizon the sun appears "squished" when it is rising or setting (the top of the sun experiences less refraction than the bottom of the sun). Of course, atmospheric refraction depends on atmospheric conditions, so normal conditions do not always apply. It is known that atmospheric conditions at polar locations can cause the sun to appear to rise as early as two weeks, a phenomenon known as Novaya Zemlya. This has been noted as early as 400 years ago: "In the next place, Gerrit de Veer states explicitly that he and two of his companions "saw the edge of the sun" on the 24th of January, and that on the 27th of that month they "all went forth and saw the sunne in his full round-nesse a little above the horizon"; and again, that on 31st they "went out and saw the sunne shine cleare"; and lastly, on the 8th of February, they "saw the sun rise south-east, and went down south south-west." On the intervening days, the weather being cloudy or otherwise unfavorable, they had no opportunity of observing the sun." page cliii of "The three voyages of William Barentz to the Arctic regions" That was 400 years ago, and at de Veer's location, 75 degrees 45 minutes north latitude, the sun's upper edge wasn't even supposed to be seen until February 9th. This is why I make my measurements of the Sun's position relative to the stars and with the Sun at least a few degrees above the horizon; to eliminate the effect of atmospheric refraction as a variable. I'm interested in showing that the sun is not out of place either relative to the stars and that the stars themselves (and by extension the sun) are not out of place relative to our axis of rotation. Abnormally high levels of atmospheric refraction can cause reports like the one in Greenland. Compared to the historical account, the incident in 2011 was actually mild. Whether or not the incidence of Novaya Zemlya is increasing in frequency is another question, but I do not believe there is enough data yet to say for certain one way or another. I leave that to the weather experts to figure out, but it is at least consistent with anecdotal reports of "increased twilight" at polar locations as well as the Inuit thinking the earth is tilting because sunrise didn't occur exactly when/where they expected it to on the horizon. What I [i]can[/i] conclude is that it was another case of Novaya Zemlya, not a case of the sun actually being "out of place" in the sky in any physical sense. Sadly, that's not exciting enough for GLP, so I was almost universally rejected even though I called it days before the media, and in fact the "mainstream conclusion" actually [i]changed[/i] from the ice melting BS to exactly what I said days later. [/quote]
Original Message
ok so i was putting the rubbish out for recycling and looked up to see the sun rising over the horizon...beautiful, stood freezing my tits off for a min looking at it when i realised that it was not in the east...
dont all start shouting at once, im probably wrong put it was def south east not east....i know where north is as i had an app on my last phone but i also have an old fashion compas too so ran into look for it and couldnt believe it...even got 17 y/o son to check it as he would understand it better as hes done 3 yrs at cadets and agreed...
please explain the mistake i made to me as i have always been one to poohoo the whole sun moving pole shift stuff but got to say...im more than alittle shocked!!!
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