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Why God must exist
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Anonymous Coward 8685274:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1NzkzNDcyX0VDMjU4MUM0] [quote:Amilius:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1NzkzMjI4Xzc1MEFFMDJE] [quote:Anonymous Coward 8685274:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1NzkyOTU2XzY5MUFEMzY5] [quote:Amilius:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1NzkyNzUzXzEzRUUwQUVD] [quote:Anonymous Coward 8685274:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1NzkyNjg5XzQ3NTdGNzg4] This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. [/quote] This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God. [/quote] With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be? [/quote] My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science. [/quote] On what basis can you claim that the universe is subjected to time, rather than time being a property of it? Your claim of god being outside of time can just as easily be attributed to the universe itself. If I understand you correctly, if something is outside of time, you don't have to explain how it came to be, as that would not make any sense. So what I am essentially proposing is that this property can also be attributed to the universe. How you attribute this property does not really matter. Off the top of my head, I'd say the big bang/big crunch hypothesis would suffice. Or, the universe itself is all that exists, and within that existence, we observe evidence of a big bang. However, the material that came from the big bang may not be all that exists, rather, just a bubble emerging from a greater existence. Time only exists within the bubble, or multiples thereof. [/quote]
The fine tuning argument says there must have been a god. It was said that if the universe has had a change by 1 in 10^100 the universe wouldn't exist or would not be habitable for life. Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. So in order for the universe to exist and be so finely tuned there must have been an incorporeal first cause that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. Those are the characteristics of a god.
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