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Why God must exist
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Anonymous Coward 8685274:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1Nzk1NTI0XzVDOThFNTVG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33154487:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1Nzk1NDQzXzk1NjRCRDRE] [quote:Anonymous Coward 8685274:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1Nzk1MDk5X0M3MTY4MkMy] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33154487:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1Nzk0OTY5X0Y3RTNDMkU3] [quote:Anonymous Coward 8685274:MV8yMTIxNTQyXzM1NzkyNjg5XzQ3NTdGNzg4] This is the same old argument (the most popular) repackaged. I observe x, x is strange and I cannot find a logical explanation (yet), therefore god exists. X is the apparent fine-tuning of the universe. All we know for certain is that the universe is fine tuned for life as we know it. I'd like to offer a counter argument. This counter argument applies to your argument's many faces, including; (1)look at the beauty of the universe, therefore god exists. (2)How could something exist? Why not nothing? Therefore god exists. (3)Living things appear designed, therefore god exists. etc Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence. So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be. You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything. [/quote] Asking this question poses the problem of infinite regress; it is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4AHFBft2L8 [/quote] I don't believe infinite regress addresses my argument based on the fact that I am not saying a god exists only if you can explain who created him, and who created the creator's creator etc. I am saying that attributing the property of being outside of time to god as a cheap way of avoiding explaining his existence means that you can also attribute this to the universe itself, thus avoiding the need to explain how it got here. I am atheist and don't engage in assumptions about the universe (or god) without evidence, but the OP seems to have no problem with this. I am just asking why he/she specifically cannot imagine the universe being outside of time. [/quote] Touche! None of us knows how He came to exist, but, in the end, based on what we know about ourselves and the universe, it is not absurd to conclude that there is a deity greater than ourselves. It isn't cheap if we are using the only viable evidence available and even using scientific tools and ideas. People cried when Christians tried explaining with just their own experiences and the world is still boohooing when intelligent and educated men and women search out God in the physical and scientific realm. There just seems no winning for those who see intelligent design behind our existence, but the real bottom line is neither can evolutionist truly prove otherwise. Even those who know nothing about Christianity or science have come to the conclusion of a Creator or deity greater than themselves for millennia and from a variety of cultures with no way of being tainted by the other. Having these cultures validate what the Christian God tells us in the Bible, that we would be able to find Him by just looking around us sort of clenches that it is a possibility, wouldn't you think? [/quote] I don't think it is reasonable to think that anyone should have to prove or believe how the universe came to be. We simply don't know. The fact that you cannot prove god does not exist is not evidence that god exists. Also, could you go into detail about why you think that since many cultures believe in a deity, it means that a deity exists? [/quote]
The fine tuning argument says there must have been a god. It was said that if the universe has had a change by 1 in 10^100 the universe wouldn't exist or would not be habitable for life. Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. So in order for the universe to exist and be so finely tuned there must have been an incorporeal first cause that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. Those are the characteristics of a god.
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