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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
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[quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxMzg2XzNCNTI2OTgz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 17551129:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxMjIyX0M3MTIyRjI3] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxMDgyXzNFNzkxM0Mz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33674751:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxMDA1XzY4QzQwQzY4] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwOTExX0MxREZBNURB] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33674751:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwODczXzc4NDkwOTQ3] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNzc3Xzc0Nzg4QTYz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33674751:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNDc5XzkxODYxOTNE] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwMzYxXzgzMDlCNkNC] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33674751:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwMTYyXzE5ODQzMzFG] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwMDI5X0VCRjg0NUE0] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33674751:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5OTgzX0M0QkI0QUU1] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5OTU0X0VGNzFBMTBC] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33674751:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5ODgzX0M1NzkyMEQy] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5NzczXzQ5QkQ3QjIw] You mean you're willing to criticize my beliefs and then not discuss yours? That's strange and also unusual for you to engage me and openly put me down for all my spiritual failings than fail to discuss yours! :SmileyWink: Come come, don't be such a coward. Let's talk about your beliefs too. We should talk about Thich Nhat Hanh then, for it is undeniable that he's both a brilliant man as well as a devout spiritual man. Regardless even that system recognizes some sense of spiritual attainment in which people evolve into a bodhisattva or higher. So you're denying the existence of God per se. Some Christians. My gosh there are a billion of us. You're making a really huge dishonest stereotype.[b] I don't know any two that are the same,[/b] not many but the extreme sort of fundamentalists who spend a ton of time on Satan's presence. The problem with only love is that it isn't defineable and is so loose as to be almost meaningless. It's a bland idea discussing universal love, and unattainable. It's like saying, "See if everyone would just love each other, then everything would be perfect...." which is admirable and noble and hopelessly naive too. [/quote] It might have been a good idea to leave that line out. Talk about meaningless drivel. You are ALL exactly the same. Not a shred of difference. I can pick a "Christian" out in two seconds flat, and it isn't because they are so spiritual and good either. Some of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard come from the mouths of most Christians. I should know, I was a devout Christian for 25 years and left because you people are ALL, yes every single one of you, the same. The endless contradictions and hypocrisy were two other reasons. That book and subsequent religion is full of SHIT! [/quote] Well that's just your subjective opinion, isn't it? You don't offer any intellectual discourse whatsoever. It's very lazy writing. Why not write instead about what YOU think, rather than resort to puerile slander like "That book and subsequent religion is full of SHIT!"? That's not how rational people talk, but how fundamentalists talk. So you've simply exchanged your probably once balanced spirituality for some domgmaitic kneejerk response. How is that better? [/quote] Funny how you picked that one line out amongst everything that was said in that post. You're a Christian, aren't you? See how easy that was? See ya. :hi: [/quote] Note unlike you I didn't say something equally perverse. It's not the mark of an intelligent person, [b]only a jerk. [/b]It's pathetic, and not the way to debate, but rather the actions of a spoiled child. [/quote] Or, well studied in "Christianity". Name calling, how Christian-like. See? You're all the same. Hypocrites, every one of ya. [/quote] HA! I scoff at your remark. Calling you a jerk is so tame and mild versus saying that Christianity and the Bible are full of SHIT! Come now, that's no comparison! Are you saying it's fine to call a billion people, their religion, and their beliefs, and their sacred text full of excrement? You're absurd and too sensitive....and a JERK of the 1st magnitude! [/quote] I'm the sensitive one? :lmao: Mirrors suck, eh? [/quote] Hahahahah I'm laughing at you. [b]The comparison of a billion souls covered in excrement because you're a sad little man and unhappy with Christians it too much. You got upset with being called a jerk. Talk about oversensitive![/b] :rofl: [/quote] That doesn't sound like the words of someone who is having a good time to me. No, those are the words of butthurt. [/quote] See that precisely what I mentioned. It's the sign of a total lack of decorum. If I use baby words like butthurt x 3, do I win? Huh huh? Pathetic loser. Be the intellectual you claim to be, if you dare. [b]I am totally mocking you and laughing. [/b]Not because you are brilliant, but because you're so weak. [/quote] I've already won. [/quote] That's the sad part. I've discussed multiple angles to having a dialogue with a rational person about their belief system, followed that from a Christian perspective to other Christians on why quoting the Bible won't persuade any nonbelievers. Discussed how they might better witness effectively. Then discussed a real philosophical proof of God, one that NO ONE has yet bothered to analyze or rebut. [b]Followed a second famous proof on the status of Jesus Christ, which no one has bothered to rebut either[/b]. The only thing you have "butted in" about is excrement and pejoratives....which is extremely low class. [/quote] See bolded... I am sorry if I missed it... I am interested in seeing this proof... [/quote] As posted before: [b]Is there evidence of God?[/b] Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set. [u]The Cell[/u]: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell? [u]Constants in Nature[/u]: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe. [u]Evil[/u]: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable? [u]Rationality[/u]: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that. [u]Morality[/u]: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies – both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality? [u]Art[/u]: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage. I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator. When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries I’ve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one. [b]Is there proof that Jesus existed and was who he said he was?[/b] From: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html [i]Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following: The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44). Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18). Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper. The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy. Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods. Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers. Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus. In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger). There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.[/i] [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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