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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyMDcxXzMyNURGMTU4] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxMzQzX0U3OEREMjAw] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNjkwXzc1NUQ1ODc5] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNDc3Xzc2M0UzNDNB] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5MTk2X0EzRDlERTkz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4NTY4XzdDNEMyMEUy] It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth. [/quote] Actually, while raised a Christian, I am much older than you imagine and have intentionally chosen to believe in Christianity by studying it. I have believed it by using Faith and Reason in a very disciplined way by a mind trained in college and graduate school. I am hardly indoctrinated. Are you indoctrinated? I wouldn't ever say such things, for do you not have Free Will, or are you an automaton? I don't know anyone save those who truly was indoctrinated by going through a starvation process mostly of carbohydrates and went through a long period of sleep deprivation and so became mentally broken through a cult process. Those folks are rare and universally identified, for example like the Unification Church. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Christians only believe because of indoctrination, for in reality they have autonomy and can easily choose what they believe, just as atheists choose what they believe. I agree that some faiths if lived into might lead to a world of harmony. Most faiths in history can get along, although there are periods in which fundamentalists of all religions have persecuted each other. Even Buddhists who are known for being peaceful (which is a stereotype not always bourne out by reality) have engaged in ethnic cleansing. Your model is very simplistic and stereotypical. In Gnostic thought, which seems to be your thought, Lucifer is the lightbringer and so in that religion, the one in which Christians feel is the incarnation of Evil is the last one they'd worship. I hope you're not believing in that discredited spiritual system. [/quote] I am not a gnostic but who discredited gnostic thought? You? Your church? Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and [color=red]the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God[/color]. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation. So you see, your religion's obsession with evil was wrong about Gnosis. The previous paragraph was copied from the Gnosis Archive (http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm). Christianity's mission is to discredit any other religion or philosophy to maintain that Christianity is the only true religion. You have studied your religion but you have not opened your mind to the study of other religions or philosophic thought so you have no right to condemn them or subject them to evil intentions. [/quote] Gnostics believe this, which I believe is PURE EVIL. http://www.theforbiddenreligion.com/lucifer-the-liberator.htm "11. LUCIFER, THE LIBERATOR [color=red]Gnostic myths[/color] relate that Lucifer is the Messenger of the Unknowable God. We had said that this God, the greatest one, unreachable and unknowable, is unable to penetrate this limited universe of impure and satanic matter. But according to these myths, he can send someone, Lucifer. Only with a supreme sacrifice can an incredibly Spiritual and pure being of antimatter fire break through into the infernal world of this universe. [color=red]According to Gnostic legends and myths[/color], the great Unknowable God sent Lucifer, angel of indescribable fire and light, to show man the light and to help him wake up and see his true origin, the origin of his Spirit, which has been perversely imprisoned in this impure matter called body-soul. He is an uncreated being, who came to the created world to bring Light: Liberating Gnosis. The saving knowledge which can wake man up and help him free his imprisoned Spirit. The knowledge which allows him to know who he truly is, why he is here in this world and what he has to do to liberate himself and fulfil his Spirit, which belongs to another uncreated and unknowable plane. We have said that Lucifer came to the world to wake man up, to help him remember his divine origin, the divine origin of his Spirit, and to help him free himself from the body-soul in which he is trapped, and from created time and matter. " [/quote] "Gnostic myths ..." need I say more? Someone, maybe a long-lost angry Christian, may have hung that myth on the Gnostics and it stuck. It does not say they believe it, it simply states what the myth said. Learn to read and apprehend before you shoot arrows at something you know nothing about except hearsay. [/quote] [b][color=green]Let's look at some Gnostic websites and see what they say about Lucifer, shall we? After all, a Gnostic site would be quite authoritative versus a Christian interpretation, don't you think?[/color][/b] http://gnosticteachings.org/books-by-samael-aun-weor/the-major-mysteries/479-jehovah-lucifer-christ.html " The Major Mysteries, a book by Samael Aun Weor Jehovah, Lucifer, Christ Within the gigantic patios of the temples of ancient Lemuria, men and women united sexually in order to create; at that time the sexual act was guided by the Elohim. Man and woman (sexually united) knew how to withdraw before the orgasm in order to avoid the seminal ejaculation. At that time, the Elohim were utilizing one spermatozoon and one feminine gamete in order to create, since only one spermatozoon and one feminine gamete are needed in order to create. A spermatozoon is so infinitesimal, so microscopic, that it can easily escape from the sexual male glands without the necessity of spilling the semen. This is how the Edenic being sexually reproduces. This is how the children of Immaculate Conception are born. This is what Immaculate Conception means. Lucifer tempted the human being and the human being fell into temptation. Lucifer as a black magician wears a bloody colored tunic and covers his head with a red cap like the Bons and the Drukpas from oriental Tibet. The lustful forces of the Luciferians awoke animal passion within human beings; then men and women started to ejaculate their semen. This is the cause for which the Lemurian tribes were expelled from the temples. Then, in those times of yore, the Kundalini, that was victoriously lifted up in the medullar canal, descended to the coccygeal bone and there it lingered, enclosed within the chakra Muladhara. The lamp of the temple was snuffed out and the human being sank himself into profound darkness. Thus, this is how the Edenic being died and the Luciferian being was born. Then, when the human being ate from the forbidden fruit, the Lord Jehovah said,...." http://www.netplaces.com/gnostic-gospels/the-divine-feminine-ideal/sophias-fall.htm "Sophia's Fall by Meera Lester The story of Sophia's fall begins with the idea of an original and unknowable First Parent (also known as Godhead, Forefather, Unknowable One, Monad, Root, Logos, All Begotten, First Mystery, and Aeon). The Godhead emanated pairs of “lesser” beings, quasi gods, of which Sophia and Christ were the youngest/lowest pair. These lesser gods with the Godhead made up the fullness of Pleroma (heaven). Following her emanation from the Godhead, Sophia feared losing knowledge and the light of the One. She longed to return to it. In her passion and longing, without either the help of her male counterpart or permission from the Godhead, she undertook the action of “emanating” a being — the Demiurge, a formless entity outside of the Pleroma. This is the crisis in the story of Sophia. It came about not because of a sexual creational act but because of a masculine/feminine imbalance. Sophia's action disturbed the harmony of the Pleroma. The early Gnostics, as already noted, considered Christ the masculine counterpart of Sophia. [b]The masculine name for Sophia is Lucifer (hêlêl in Hebrew, which means “shining one”). Some have equated the Demiurge, her offspring, as Satan."[/b] http://usminc.org/gnostic.html "The word "Gnostic" is actually an umbrella term for many different heretical religious sects. These groups arose primarily around 200-400 A.D. Rather than being some kind of "long lost Christianity" or "original Christianity" which you might have read about, this is far from the truth! Gnosticism existed in the Pagan religions of Persia around the 1st Century B.C. Since Gnosticism was a Pagan religion that existed a century before Christ, it is impossible it was somehow the "original" Christianity. It would be like saying Olympian Paganism was the original Christianity. No Gnostic scriptures have been found older than the 5th century A.D. Gnosticism was a rebellion against traditional Christian beliefs and attempted to combine Paganism with Christianity. Some Gnostic groups had beliefs that often contradicted the beliefs of other Gnostic groups. The one thing thay all had in common was that all of these groups departed from the orthodox Christian faith. Some of the various beliefs of these groups included: *A belief in reincarnation * [b]That Lucifer and Christ were brothers[/b] * That Jesus was not the only begotten Son of God *That Jesus was actually the Archangel Michael *That Jesus was all divine and not man *That Jesus and Christ were two separate beings *That the Creator God of the Old Testament was evil * A rejection of all the sacred books of the Old Testament *That John the Baptist was actually the Messiah, not Jesus *[b]That Satan is really Christ’s father and the God of the Old Testament is the Devil[/b] [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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