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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyNzU2XzlCNDAxMEZD] [quote:AgnosticDeity:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyNjUyXzlERUZCRUQy] [quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyMjUyXzlBRTYxNjBF] [quote:AgnosticDeity:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyMTU3X0U4Q0E1Q0Q4] [quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyMTE5XzZCMUVCNERC] [quote:AgnosticDeity:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIyMDMwXzIxMzYwNENB] [quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxODA0XzExRDA2RDQ2] [quote:Anonymous Coward 17551129:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxNTc4XzVGRkYyNEY5] [quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIxMjI5XzUwQzBGNkFG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 17551129:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwOTE4X0I4MDMxRDdF] [quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNDc4X0U2ODEyOUFC] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5OTg5XzI0NkVBM0ZC] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4OTk0X0ZCNzg4OTYy] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4NTY4XzdDNEMyMEUy] Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want? [/quote] Jesus did begin a religious movement which began as soon as he begin preaching. We know that from the disciples who He immediately attracted. What you're discussing is the state religion of Constantine which I admit happened far later. Prior is was a tiny movement. Jesus by definition by dying on the Cross was done to redeem the whole world. He said it many times. That is the basis for Christianity, and if He didn't come back three days later and ressurected then it wouldn't be a religion. You don't understand much about Christian belief, do you? If you're proposing your own belief system, then instead you should explain that carefully, not interweave Jesus within your idea. You should expand upon this self-saving, for what you say is not clear. Are you a Gnostic, because it sounds like it? [/quote] Tell me where Jesus said he was going to redeem the world from the cross... [/quote] Here -- one where he clearly points back to the prophecies of the Old Testament. There are more. [u]Luke 24:44-48[/u] He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. [/quote] You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind... But, for me, I see a big scam going on... Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS... A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm... Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source... For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable... My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert... [/quote] So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ? Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel? If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch? As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real. [/quote] Essentially, yes I would discount them... I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works... Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you... But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you... If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up... Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried... [/quote] Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence. I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world. [b]God is perfect love. God is perfect justice.[/b] How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10 [/quote] How can anyone honestly believe that God is love and justice??? This is one of the biggest fallacies involved with christanity. Your god is a voyeur. He watches his creations suffer and deal with injustice every day. How does this display his love and justice? Children beaten, raped, and starved. Where is his love and justice in that? [/quote] So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement! Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love. [/quote] Actually he paid the same price we all eventually pay. He died just like each and every one of us will. My question is how can you preach about gods love when there is absolutely no evidence of it? [/quote] All you see is the darkness. The light dispells the darkness, but that requires letting the light in. [/quote] Maybe I'm not communicating my point well enough, so I'll use an example. I have 2 children were I ever to see either of them in danger, or suffering, I would do whatever was in my power to end that suffering. Your god turns a blind eye to the suffering of the billions of his supposed children. Now where is the love in that example? Will my children suffer hardship that I cannot help them with? Absolutely. The difference is that I am not an omnipresent omnipotent all powerful being. Because if I were the answer to my previous question would be not a damn chance. [/quote] I'll attempt this, but I'm exhausted so you might have to wait for a reply. Supposed that God decided, "I will set things in motion for Humanity to be stewards of my Creation. That's what I set in motion as the covenant between us in the Garden of Eden. They possess all they need to care for one another. They have two hand to hold, two legs to move, a highly advanced brain, eyesight, a mouth to communicate, etc. Because of Free Will, I cannot directly intervene, for to do so would violate that Law. I sent my Son to intervene as a ransom for All Time. They chose to crucify Him as I foresaw it. Now they must fix the mess that they're in. I will watch and affect the Universe, but the problem of suffering is theirs to solve, for by doing so, they will understand the difficulties of Love and Discord, Good and Evil, and I cannot explain it all any more than I already have done so. In fact, because of grace, they can accept eternal life simply by believing in my Son and accepting grace since they cannot stop sinning." This is one reason suffering might exist. Who can know? Remember, how do you feel about an amoeba? Do you think twice about one? Yet God loves people through time (for the most part save the enemies of Israel). Who is more loving, one single being who cares for their own children, or God? [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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