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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTM1Mjc1Xzk2MDNGMDI2] “In a foxhole, there are no atheists.” The Reverend William T. Cummings (Bataan) I'm not sure if most of you know what Bataan means. It was a horrific event that happened in history during WW2 to POWs captured by the Japanese. “The Bataan Death March which began on April 9, 1942, was the forcible transfer by the Imperial Japanese Army of 60-80,000 Filipino and American prisoners of war after the three-month Battle of Bataan in the Philippines during World War II.All told, approximately 2,500–10,000 Filipino and 100-650 American prisoners of war died before they could reach Camp O'Donnell. Death tolls vary, especially amongst Filipino POWs, because historians cannot determine how many prisoners blended in with the civilian population and escaped. The 128 km (80 mi) march was characterized by wide-ranging physical abuse and murder, and resulted in very high fatalities inflicted upon prisoners and civilians alike by the Japanese Army, and was later judged by an Allied military commission to be a Japanese war crime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQWdETwFACs[/youtube] I'm not preaching here. If you've read my posts, there's free will. What you believe is entirely up to you. I understand that many of you have issues with Christianity. That's OK, I equally have issues with one religion in particular. We are human and we all have things which we dislike and even loathe. Rational people are rare. Most people argue like children. Many people lack the intellectual capacity to either debate or use the dialectic to discover truth. Others cannot write well, though they have great ideas. Others don't care and they simply post nonsense as evidence , because they've never debated anyone before, and can't be bothered to learn how to debate or discuss things rationally. We will never ever convince anyone to become an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian by reading a post on GLP. All people will either like or feel neutral or dislike a post and then respond in silly ways. Much of that is a terrible time-waster. Instead, what would really help you, whether young or old, would be to open some books on philosophy or spirituality, and then learn to read what others have written. Then being educated in your passionate beliefs, and then having contemplated what YOU think, then YOU can decide what you think. In seminary, a lot of Christians have a very very difficult time. Some seminaries challenge folks to prove all of their assertions. It's not enough to say, “I believe this and so it is so.” Rational people, believe it or not, exist among Christianity. Rational people believe it or not, exist among Atheists and Agnostics. If we can find common ground then we could eliminate a ton of discord around us. We are not the enemy of each other. I write mostly from a prepper background. I'm not a paranoid person, but from my youth I saw the beauty of Nature from a Native American perspective on the connectedness of all species. That made me very aware of God, but I also intentionally took classes on those skills and practiced them in a rural community. I think many of you feel concerned about how life is changing. Things are less secure than they were six years ago. There's been a decline in the standard of living as well as a commensurate increase in the cost of living as well as the loss of jobs in many nations. All is NOT well. When we see the active signs of Entropy around us, the gradual decay of relationships, items, cultural phenomena, war, drought, famine, etc then the best way to deal with that is to chose life-affirming ancestral skills. When you grow things or find wild edibles in Nature, when you hunt, trap, or fish, when you raise animals, then you feel the heartbeat of Nature in all species. Some of that is hard to understand for vegans for they dislike using animals. I understand that and respect your choices. By reading and discovering what you belief or disbelieve and becoming a better communicator, then you hone your mind and spirit. When you grow things... then you hone the body, mind, and spirit. If you risk doing both, you might find that there is a connection between those very different things. Journal your Odyssey of the Mind. Write down what you think and then re-read what you think. Then see how far you've come. Don't just live like flotsam floating down a river. Don't just follow everyone else who are drifting along. Worse, some people stare blankly at the sky above as they drift and are entirely obtuse to the other's drifting. It's why we don't feel connected to each other's suffering. Paddle your canoe instead and YOU chose which way to go. As things continue to decline, doing the above will strengthen and empower you. You might have to rely upon those skills instead of shopping at a grocery store. Even if you never have the disaster of facing an extended ice storm, you probably will face unemployment, divorce, death of spouse, etc at some point in your life. Having done those two things above, you might cope better. When faced with a crisis, most people will find a measure of belief. It might be encountering God for seldom will your own strength of character be suffice within a terrible storm. Real understanding comes through suffering. When we suffer, some people are so immersed in it, that they can't see that their neighbor is also suffering. If they become cognizant of the suffering of the Other, then they often will think, “They are like me. They suffer too. Their suffering is worse than mine. I have some skills, maybe I could ease their suffering? Maybe they know a way to ease mine? We don't agree about much, but at least we share this much.” If you can do that with those you disagree with, and that process often happens as you get older, some of us become more altruistic. Altruism is a natural aspect of any spirituality. If there isn't any altruism in your spirituality, then chances are instead of sharing love and friendship, then your love become rape, a warped evil criminal practice instead. Altruism is a natural aspect of any philosophy. Because you “woke up” by deep contemplation, you want others to “wake up” too. Make sure that's tempered by altruism or not forcing your ideas on others...that's also rape. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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