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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:simultaneous_final:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxNTYxXzgzQjQ0RkE4] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33543587:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxNDc3XzcyMEVCMUVC] [quote:christian:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxMzY0X0Y3NTNDNzk1] [quote:Anonymous Coward 33543587:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxMzI2XzdEMzE2M0JE] [quote:Anonymous Coward 1518033:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxMTA0X0EyOERCNDdE] Atheists and Christians usually don't argue specifically if there is a God or there is not a God on this newsgroup. We usually argue if Jesus Christ existed at all and if Jesus Christ is God. We argue if the current cannoized Christian Bible is with error or completely without error. Since the Bible is full of contradictions, we know for a fact that it is with error. Did Judas hang himself or did he fall to his death? A Christian appologist might say that he hanged and when he was cut down, his guts burst out. People who believe that the Bible is without error constantly make these kind of contrived appologies. One appology might seem o.k., but when Christians make thousands of appologies trying to say that the Bible is without error and says the same thing, then they are lying to themselves and to us. Now God is a subjective thing. I can worship breasts and bottoms and money. God to many people is a person that has never lied and a person who hates slavery. Well we know from the Bible that Jesus lied. John 7:8-10. A Christian appologist would say he just changed his mind. "but as it were in secret" is pretty deceptive for God. Jesus also said beat slaves even though the slaves didn't know they were doing wrong. Luke 12:47-48. A Christian appologist would say that it is just a parable, a story. But a story teaches, and Jesus was teaching slavery. If he was God, the kind of God I would worship, he would say, free your slaves. Jesus Christ was never even mentioned together before 325 a.d. Jesus wasn't even a person's name before then. In fact, we do know who wrote several parts of the Bible because we can study early versions of it and see how it changed. We can learn a lot of things by what was mentioned early on and what wasn't. For example, the entire New Testament and Christianity is based on Revelation, a book on Astrology by Apollonius, which was never meant to be publically read. We know that Lucius Plutarchus who was a very famous Roman and royal historian, was the original Luke of the Bible because both men have the same personal history, born in the same town, died in the same place. We know that the travels of Paul (Apollonius) were really the conquest paths of Titus. And we know that the religion of Mythras later was turned into the religion of Christianity. [/quote] You bring up sound points and solid arguments. For myself I worship nothing, and believe in much. I am quite positive that there is an afterlife, based on personal experiences. What it is exactly? I am far from sure. But I believe that the essence of what makes us an individual survives on eternally. Is there a God? Yes, but this spirit is not what Christians believe. I believe this spirit we name as God does not control, punish, judge, blame or interfere. We all have free will and choice. How we live our lives and conduct ourselves is choice and can be a gift and a punishment for the soul. I believe God is the Universe, and everything in it, small and large. God is in all of us in the good AND bad we do everyday. [/quote] But what you believe is not Universal truth, it is your opinion, and you made GOD into your image.... [/quote] If you are addressing me, then yes, what I typed is indeed my opinion. I can say this, and yet enjoy and agree with the person I quoted. We do not know what the Universal Truth is. OP likely is lucky enough to know this maybe, but in believing the OP you must have Faith and Belief in what he says. I am simply stating what I BELIEVE. You can choose (choice) to believe whatever you wish, and you can choose to believe that God is an omnipotent being that punishes people if they do not follow exactly as he says, and you can believe that God grants wishes and much more. I have had experiences that tell me things are far simpler and yet far more awesome than most think. [/quote] TRUST ME--OP doesn't "know" shit! I tried to make that clear. I don't even know that I'm not dreaming right now with a head full of fabricated memories. I (and all of us) have to have "faith" just to interact with our supposed day-to-day activities. I didn't mention my NDE to prove anything. I mentioned it because it's my best experiential data indicating the existence of a God but IT IS COMPLETELY FALSIFIABLE AS AN ARGUMENT. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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