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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:simultaneous_final:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkyNTE4X0E3OUNDRTI1] [quote:LSDreamer:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkyMTEzXzM3NDdCRjcx] [quote:simultaneous_final:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxODYxXzhCNkNEQ0ZC] [quote:LSDreamer:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxNzc2Xzc0RjNGMjQ=] [quote:simultaneous_final:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxMjYwX0YxRkM2OUJC] [quote:LSDreamer:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODkxMTc4X0U0N0E2RTkx] > Complains about people arguing about god. > Makes an argument for god. Everyone who enters the god debate knows that there is no final answer, thus making it the argument that never goes stale. It is one of the oldest arguments and one that will never go away. I think you will also find that most atheists have no problem with someones individual belief in god, just what that person does with said belief. [/quote] I used my own experiential data as a falsifiable example. I certainly am NOT arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of a god or gods. If I'm mistaken, then explain how. [/quote] First things first, stop saying you used experimental data, you didn't. Experimental data is a scientific process using measurements, provable test method etc. You joined the argument when you said I believe in god because of X, if you thought no one was going to challenge you on that position, why make the thread? If you don't want to have the argument, why state it? I believe that near death experiences are shown by science to be from the release if chemicals in your brain, or the brains reaction to a sudden onset of extreme stress in the case of near miss car accidents etc. I already explained that everyone who enters the debate knows that there is no end to it, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be debated. [/quote] I believe that my experience was as genuine as any other experience that I've had in normal waking reality due to the similarities in sensory perception making my experience indistinguishable from normal waking experiences. I mentioned the experience as a FALSIFIABLE EXAMPLE of what someone might call "proof". Also, "experiential data" in its strictest sense is data (in my case sensory data) that is subjectively experienced. The only reason for which it can be said that the god/no god debate "should" be had is that it can be demonstrated that NO CONCLUSION CAN BE REACHED. [/quote] Many apologies but I did misread your post as another user pointed out. All I can say to you then is if you believe the whole "we can't even prove we are awake" argument then there is no point in you making this thread, you shouldn't even have an opinion on it. [/quote] The point of this thread is that existence of ANYTHING beyond our own individual moment-to-moment concept of self is UNPROVABLE. That is not a case for solipsism because I don't assert that our individual moment-to-moment concept of self CERTAINLY IS all that exists. Not knowing what DOES exist precludes anyone from knowing what DOESN'T exist. This can be applied to all concepts (save the moment-to-moment self) including gods. This thread demonstrates the futility of arguing the proveability of the existence or inexistence of any one or more gods. Therefore, IT IS USEFUL IN A FORUM WHERE PROOF IS CLAIMED IN THESE MATTERS ON A DAILY BASIS. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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