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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:simultaneous_final:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODk0ODg5XzJDRUE4OTc1] [quote:BossBitch:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODk0NzIwX0E0ODU5RTY2] [quote:simultaneous_final:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODk0NTM4X0IwQzFGMzdC] [quote:BossBitch:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1ODk0NDAyXzdBRkIyMzkx] The flaw in that story is that one type of faith is due to simple logic and evidence, whilst the other type is due to brainwashing. You cannot compare them as equals. By your reasoning, you would have to have "faith" about everything, every second of every day. For example, you will probably plan meetings tomorrow on the premise that you are still going to be alive. You don't know that 100%, but with simple logic and reasoning, you can ascertain that there is a great probability, and therefore can justify your "faith". The other type of faith is blind, desperate, grasping-at-straws belief in something regardless of wether it follows logic and reasoning. For example, the group of people that all commited suicide due to their "faith" that a UFO was coming to take them away. Faith due to brainwashing is not the same as faith due to logic, sorry. What you mean is some of us can use logic and reasoning, and some of us can't. I already knew that though. [/quote] Faith is required every second of every day for any and all people. Also, you assume that religious people have no rational basis for their belief. What of the people who have accumulated experiential data which supports (or even shapes) their beliefs? Take my NDE for example. It may have been a hallucination. I concede that. However, because of the quality of the experience (qualitatively indistinguishable from normal waking "reality"), I choose to have as much faith in its reality as I have in normal waking reality. Perhaps this is a mistake. Perhaps not. Another (but hypothetical) example Suppose a man prays to Vishnu to win a scratch-off lottery ticket. Be wins. Suppose he does the same thing the next week and wins. And again. Would he be irrational (at that point after the third win) to have faith in the existence of Vishnu? My point is that our accumulated experiential data forms what we consider "real". And rightly so. We make logical INDUCTIONS based upon data. But even Aristotle realized that inductions can not be relied upon. A simpler way to say this is "statistics tell us what has been but not what is or what will be". [/quote] If someone wants to believe something, they will be bias against any and all evidence to the contrary.***(1)*** You might say that Atheists do the same, but think about a person with no biases whatsoever. Lets say scientists get ahold of a child, and raise it, and never say a thing about religion one way or the other. They keep all influences, media, and agenda away from it. Do you think that child will miraculously find Jesus through visions?***(2)*** No. Humans are taught what to believe by other humans with an agenda. The default condition is to know nothing, and then to follow logic. If our experimental child did that, what do you think would happen? He would explore facts, science, and evolution, and would not have the faintest idea about deities. Therefore, atheism is the natural state of being. ***(3)***If you would like to prove the existence of a deity, the burden is on you.***(4)*** Just like in court, you don't get indicted for murder because you cant prove a murder didnt take place. Indeed, if someone would like to prove a murder took place, they will have to come up with some solid evidence. And "faith" certainly wouldnt cut it in a court of law.***(5)*** [/quote] Thanks for your reply. (1) That assertion is easily falsifiable. Beliefs are dynamic and subject to change based on the acquisition and processing of additional experiential data. Example: I was an atheist until I had an NDE featuring a god-like being. or Many people are Christians until they actually read the Bible (LOL but true). (2) It's certainly not impossible. You used Jesus as an example but any deity will do--even completely new dieties or beings. It may seem unlikely (to me as well) but it can't be ruled out as a possibility. (3) I agree. But so is complete ignorance about all matters. I'm not implying that atheists are ignorant, mind you. (4) I certainly agree. And that "proof" will always be lacking. It can't be proven beyond ALL doubts. And if such a deity exists, he doesn't seem interested in proving his existence to everyone even beyond a REASONABLE doubt. (5) And yet witness testimony is always taken on faith. Even the judge and jury's respective impartialities are taken on faith. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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