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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE2MjMwX0VBNzAzRDIz] Now here's the problem with using the Bible to prove your assertions as a Christian. For those not reading previous postings I have made, I am a Christian(Christ-follower) but I am momentarily staying neutral out of a sense of philosophy to do not a debate, but a dialectic instead. A debate is largely about having the most persuasive words and less about the search for Truth. Many debates are won by charlatans who merely have the crowd cheering them on. Example: a sole Christian debating an Atheist in a room of 500 Atheists probably will not win a debate and likewise a sole Atheist in a room of 500 Christians is likely not to win a debate either. A debate is a poor means of discovering the veracity of an idea. In a debate, when evidence is presented, then those that are facts are not debated. Facts by definition are true. While someone could debate and say,"The Sun is actually a giant flashlight held by God." and win a debate that way, it's not a fact is it? Other evidence are theories which explain a phenomena. These are repeatable and over time more and more evidence is gathered in the form of facts. At some point a theory is well honed and there's plenty of facts to support it, then it become a Law and is no longer debated. Take the Law of gravity. No one will debate a law, for we know it's true and hence a fact. Now a well meaning Christian holds the Bible in great authority. For them and me, the Bible is God's word and has even more authority than a fact. However to an unbeliever it is merely a collection of literature and holds no authority, none more than say all of the works by William Shakespeare. Both groups can see the undeniable beauty of the language, but there's issues with the meaning of stories. Some elements seem to have a historical basis which can be independently verified. As a matter of fact, it's more authenticated than any other ancient text in history by comparison. Few people would deny that William Shakespeare existed or that he wrote those plays, but many will deny the Bible when there's overwhelming evidence about it by comparison. Hold that thought. Now when a chest thumping Bible believer cites chapter and verse to a nonbeliever, they're hoping against all odds that the beauty of language or the vehemence of the speaker or both will persuade the unbeliever. It doesn't, for the unbeliever has no frame of reference to the authenticity of Holy Scripture. To them, it's a book of literature about a historical group of people in general and no more valid than any other spiritual writing. If this is how you're witnessing to nonbelievers in general, you won't convince many people and are wasting your time. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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