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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
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[quote:AgnosticDeity:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE2NzAxX0IwOTE5QzlE] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE2NDQ1X0QxRDYyM0Q5] Well some atheists don't believe at all? Some Christians get frustrated with that. Well that's a tiny minority, so why are you so frustrated? Do you really want to convince them by reason? If so, then you must use a frame of reference that is logical, and philosophy is probably the best way to witness to those kinds of nonbelievers. I think you'll find a true atheist is very very rare. Most people see Nature and well awestruck by the enormous beauty of it. That means the preponderance of them are not atheists but agnostics. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f5ST7FDyRI[/youtube] They think it's possible, not plausible that God exists. However the main stumbling point is not that God exists, it's the existence of Evil and the way God in the Old Testament does very brutal things. Please watch this, even if an atheist or agnositic, for I think you'll at least feel a sense of wonder at Creation, and it's not that preachy or condemning like you're used to Christians being. He makes a mistake and mispronounces Rigel, but that's not a big error. A lot of agnostics who become friends with Christians who then discuss in calm ways, the existence of God, they are far more receptive to seeing this and talking gently about Creation. In reality, we own an enormous debt to scientists for helping us understand God's Universe because of their devotion to Reason. They are not the enemy. They are potential believers who know more than we do and if won over, then powerful Christians. [/quote] Well said. As an Agnostic I am open to the idea of a creator. I've always said that there is no such thing as a true atheist. While there are only 20 major religions there are millions of minor ones, and to be a true atheist you would have to discount those as well. It's easy to just lay out a blanket statement and say that all religion is bunk, but then you fall into the same category as a religious person who discounts all other religions out of hand because they believe in this certain god. I think that we could all agree in an infinite universe that there are infinite probabilities. And with those infinite probabilities the existence of some form of creator not only becomes highly likely, but a near certainty. Militant atheists piss me off almost as much as militant christians. When someone says they don't believe as you do, let them be... You'll not win them over by badgering, belittling, and cajoling them. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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