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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE3NDQ0XzFFNkQ3NDJB]
We are so very lucky for those who have a great capacity for reason. Think of all of the great philosophers, writers, scientists, artists, from myriad nations who all have that great yearning inside for Truth.

Those who don't believe but contain this marvelous ability to communicate their ideas as well as challenge other's ideas keep us honest. Real Truth is seldom in one person. It's the result of of a long discourse and much struggling like a mother giving birth to a child, but even moreso like the long courtship of Faith and Reason with furtive glances, secret kisses, and lovemaking bring forth a new life into being.

An atheist is not the enemy, nor is an agnostic, nor is a Christian. The Enemy is Falsehood.

Atheists think they have the Truth, but Christians think they possess it solely. Therefore each points fingers and say, "You LIAR!" which is rather silly for rational beings, isn't it?

The reality is far more mystical and compelling. When we struggle literally contend with God (YHWH) then we have an epiphany.
"Jacob Wrestles With God

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and [u]a man wrestled[/u] with him till daybreak. 25 [u]When the man[/u] saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because [u]you have struggled with God and with humans[/u] and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[b] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[c] and he was limping because of his hip." Genesis 32:22-31

[b][color=green]Some people think this is a very unusual Bible verse. Here is a celestial being who is not only an angel, even God, but also a man, that this being that Jacob(Israel) wrestled with was Jesus.[/color][/b]
[/quote]

Original Message Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to

because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.

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