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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:SRT:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5NjE5X0ZFRjA1RjhG] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5NDQ4X0Y3MDQ0RjMy] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4ODU4XzVGQjlFMDcy] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4NTY4XzdDNEMyMEUy] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE2MzM5XzkyNkVFRkIw] So, how the heck can one Christian convince a nonbeliever? It isn't by using the Bible. That's getting the cart before the horse. Many will listen then because we're doing what Jesus said to do. Jesus Saves...not us. We are frail beings and make mistakes. Jesus is undeniably kind hearted and good. Seldom will people say the opposite of Jesus. [/quote] Tell me, why does a Christian need to convince a nonbeliever? If you believe in your own faith, that it's right for you, that's all that should matter to you. But if you need to convince someone else of your faith, then that tells me that you aren't convinced of it yourself. And because you aren't convinced of it, you must use biblical verses in order to make your point. Your religion has forbade you think for yourself so you must let the bible do your thinking for you. You don't realize how weak your argument is because you are on the inside looking out. Buddhists do not go around trying to convince non-Buddhists to believe as they do. They know that their beliefs may not be right for someone else but they are right for them. Hindus do not try to convince others to do as they do. Hindus are concerned with their own enlightenment. Here's a wonderful description of enlightenment from Lynn Forrest: "Enlightenment is simply the falling away of untruths and darkness so that the inner light, that has been there all along, is revealed. It is a process of unveiling, rather than one of attainment." Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want? And what about the bible? Is that really God's word or are they words of Rulers of the Day speaking for God? (The times may change but people never do.) The Old Testament God is a cruel and vicious God who demands obedience upon the threat of death. What kind of God creates humans and then punishes them for being human? Plus the true God knows there is no such thing as death; there's only a change in vibration levels from low to higher. It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth. [/quote] Well of course, we don't need to convince anyone of anything due to Free Will. Christians do it out of caring allegedly just as Atheists allegedly spread their belief too. Are you really going to deny the proliferation of Atheists websites? Come on! We can do that discussion all day long for atheists cannot say they don't equally prosthelytize with equal fervor. Are you seriously going to discuss my statements as being illogical? My arguments were lengthy and full of reason, having spent an enormous amount of time carefully laying them out. Read all of them again, for my own thoughts are even more ordered than your own. Are you going to say that quoting Biblical verses is any different than atheists quoting from the Bible or other famous scholarly writing? Come on! Be intellectually honest in the dialectic. Don't cop out with a change in a very ancient Greek practice of dialogue that has always been in this kind of format. You don't know many Buddhists, do you? You're making a sweeping generalization. Look at the mindfulness training by the very famous and eloquent Thich Nhat Hanh. What about the Dali Lama? What about any number of famous Buddhists in many different nations. You can't be serious. I completely disagree that Hindu people don't also discuss their religion. Of course they do and have with me. Rational people who are spiritual or not often discuss spiritual matters. Then by doing so, some people end up embracing them. You're self-deluded. The question of God being cruel is a very common subject and I believe is the CHIEF reason atheists and agnostics reject God. I agree it seems cruel. Many verses are problematic. You won't get any argument that they are there. Are we arguing that God exists or that God is cruel at times from our perspective as solitary being on a miniscule planet which orbits a small sun, not the largest by any means? Are you saying if God is cruel sometimes that you won't believe in a God who has that kind of VAST POWER? Well if God does have all of that power than you do not believe at your doom, right? If God isn't real, then why are you worried? Your post is not full of your assertions as much as questions for me, and so it would literally take about a hundred posts to even get close to answering them. Rather than do that (while I will gladly), why not propose what YOU believe and ask me one question or two? The interesting aspect is that for an atheist, you're quite judgmental versus me who insists upon your freedom to believe what you wish as well as mostly working to take care of the temporal needs of the poor, which by definition is magnanimous and kind. You have a strange belief in Christians that I can assure you is not either my means of believing nor the way I interact with nonbelievers. [/quote] I never said I was an atheist, you just assumed that. I do believe in God but not the God of the bible, and my beliefs are my beliefs. I have no need to share them with anyone because it doesn't matter to me what anyone else thinks. We all have our own path to travel. All paths lead to God and mine is none of your business. I'm only commenting on yours because you put it on a public forum. I am also not questioning whether God exists or not. My experiences tell me God does exist but not the personal God of Christianity. Another wrong assumption you made was my not knowing any Buddhists. I volunteered at a Buddhist publishing house for a year that published only books by Thich Nhat Hanh. People who wanted to know more about Buddhist thought contacted the publisher for books to read. People who are searching contact that which offers them answers. They are not hit over the head like rabid Christians spouting chapter and verse. I'm not saying that's what you're doing but there are plenty who do. I've met many born-again Christians who are the worst people I've ever known. They were not Christlike even by accident. I also had a very close friend who was a Hindu and he never once tried to convert me to his way of thinking, nor did his Hindu friends. One more thought and then I'm done. What I don't like about Christians is their obsessive focus on Satan. I've been to church services with friends or because of funerals and the emphasis on evil makes me want to puke. Talk about devil worship! Even my own mother's funeral was full of Satan crap. Change the focus to love and you change the world. You attract what you put out there, which is universal law. [/quote] I am a Chistian and i have never focused on satan, my focus every day is on Jesus Christ. I could give a crap about satan. He is just a flea and he will be dealt with. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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