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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5ODczXzQyRTEzQzFE] [quote:Adventus Domini:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5NjM4X0JCQzEwRDlC] Is there evidence of God? Science is required to assume things to clarify a picture of what is in the natural world. They take the present, measurable data, and apply assumptions that resolve conflicts in the data set. So here are some puzzling facts about life that create conflict in the evolutionary data set. [u]The Cell[/u]: Evolution explains the transition between life forms. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself. So how did we get a cell? [u]Constants in Nature[/u]: Evolution depends on constants being in place -- our existence here is dependent upon and extremely fine-tuned Universe. [u]Evil[/u]: Evolution cannot explain the depth of human evil. Evolution presumes cruelty and harshness, but it is out of necessity. So how do you explain this human evil that far exceeds necessity and reaches depths that are unfathomable? [u]Rationality[/u]: Evolution cannot account for rationality because evolution says we are programmed in the world to survive and reproduce. Our minds are organs of survival. They are not organs of truth. So if we believe in rationality we require something outside of evolution to account for that. [u]Morality[/u]: Evolution cannot account for morality -- from the little things, to deeds of heroic greatness. Both the person who offers up his seat to an elderly woman to the person who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies Ė both are operating outside the scope of evolution. In both cases there is no advantage to be gained. What is the evolutionary explanation for morality? [u]Art[/u]: We sing, dance, sculpt, cook, etc., etc. We encapsulate our emotions into these practices to create something of meaning that provides no evolutionary advantage. I ask you to consider the God explanation. Why do we have a cell that shows the structure of complexity? Because, the cell has been intelligently designed by an intelligent designer. Why does the universe show complexity? Same answer. Why is there rationality? Because those are characteristics of the designer. Why is the depth of human evil so deep? Because our lives are a drama in which good and evil are in constant struggle (the Christian story). Why is there morality in the world, or why do we all feel, even when it works against our advantage, a moral law within us? Because there is a moral lawgiver who gave it to us. Why do we exercise our creative ability in the form of artistic endeavor? Because we are created in the image of a creator. When you put it all together, the presupposition of God resolves the errors in the data set. Suddenly the light comes on with respect to these mysteries Iíve listed above. It provides an explanation. Now, there may be a better explanation, but I have yet to hear one. [/quote] This is a remarkably eloquent and yet also succint post, one written by a true apologist of the faith of the believers of Jesus the Christ as well written by an heavy weight intellectual. :clappa: [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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