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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5OTg5XzI0NkVBM0ZC] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4OTk0X0ZCNzg4OTYy] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4NTY4XzdDNEMyMEUy] Your Christian religion has also led you down erroneous religious paths. Jesus did not start the Christian religion; his followers did many years after the fact. Jesus cannot save you; you must save yourself, and you do that according to how you live your life. Jesus did not die for your sins; your sins are your own, not his. He died to show you that there is no death; that is what Lazarus and the resurrection is all about. But your religion does not want you to know that because then they would have no power over you. As it is now, the church holds you in life-long fear that you will rot in hell if you don't obey the church's commands. The CHURCH'S commands, not God's commands. The church commands you by putting words in God's mouth. Is that the kind of bogus faith you want? [/quote] Jesus did begin a religious movement which began as soon as he begin preaching. We know that from the disciples who He immediately attracted. What you're discussing is the state religion of Constantine which I admit happened far later. Prior is was a tiny movement. Jesus by definition by dying on the Cross was done to redeem the whole world. He said it many times. That is the basis for Christianity, and if He didn't come back three days later and ressurected then it wouldn't be a religion. You don't understand much about Christian belief, do you? If you're proposing your own belief system, then instead you should explain that carefully, not interweave Jesus within your idea. You should expand upon this self-saving, for what you say is not clear. Are you a Gnostic, because it sounds like it? [/quote] Tell me where Jesus said he was going to redeem the world from the cross. And by the way, what a terrible image to base a religion on, one of torture and suffering, a man hanging on a cross to die a slow, painful death. I realize that was the accepted way of execution in those days but for a religion to make that an icon is totally absurd. It conveys that you are meant to suffer, that to enjoy life is a sin. Then again, most everything in the Christian church is a sin. There goes that obsession with Satan again ... Jesus did not come to start a religion. He came to show people the right way to live, which consisted to 2 important things: love God and love your neighbor as yourself. He also came to show that death was not the end of life, that our souls go on after the body dies. He appeared 3 days later in his light body, which is the spiritual body (or the heavenly body, if you prefer) made of light. Everyone who dies goes through this same process. Some people's vibrations are higher than others and they can see the light body of people who have died, or their vibrations were high when they died that their light bodies are also high vibration and therefore visible. Jesus had a very high vibration so he was able to appear to his loved ones and others. People didn't understand that at the time. They thought he was God, so they made him God. People weren't too well versed in a lot of things 2,000 years ago, which is why a religion was created. But Jesus did not come to start a religion. I'll say it again: he came to teach people the right way to live. He is very high on the spiritual ladder and is probably the first perfected soul. There are others who are behind him, such as Buddha, Mohammad, and other "teachers" who came to guide/teach us earthlings a more enlightened way of life. Then there's Parmahansa Yogananda, a yogi in India 100 years ago who told the exact hour of his death some time in the future and who died at exactly that hour. His body after 20 days had not decomposed one bit. I wouldn't be a bit surprised but it's still in a perfect state. [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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