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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Ms Sans Serif
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[quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNjkwXzc1NUQ1ODc5] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTIwNDc3Xzc2M0UzNDNB] [quote:Don'tBeAfraid:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE5MTk2X0EzRDlERTkz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 24392638:MV8yMTI2NzkzXzM1OTE4NTY4XzdDNEMyMEUy] It's time to start thinking about what you've been taught. If you've thought about it, weighed its pros and cons, investigated other religions, other philosophies, other ways of living, then you came to your decision on your own rather than being indoctrinated into your religion since birth. Now you won't feel the need to convince others of your faith because it is rock solid within you and it matters not what others believe. Now you can live your faith in peace and harmony, and you realize that if everyone lived their faith in peace and harmony, this world would be a heaven on earth. [/quote] Actually, while raised a Christian, I am much older than you imagine and have intentionally chosen to believe in Christianity by studying it. I have believed it by using Faith and Reason in a very disciplined way by a mind trained in college and graduate school. I am hardly indoctrinated. Are you indoctrinated? I wouldn't ever say such things, for do you not have Free Will, or are you an automaton? I don't know anyone save those who truly was indoctrinated by going through a starvation process mostly of carbohydrates and went through a long period of sleep deprivation and so became mentally broken through a cult process. Those folks are rare and universally identified, for example like the Unification Church. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Christians only believe because of indoctrination, for in reality they have autonomy and can easily choose what they believe, just as atheists choose what they believe. I agree that some faiths if lived into might lead to a world of harmony. Most faiths in history can get along, although there are periods in which fundamentalists of all religions have persecuted each other. Even Buddhists who are known for being peaceful (which is a stereotype not always bourne out by reality) have engaged in ethnic cleansing. Your model is very simplistic and stereotypical. In Gnostic thought, which seems to be your thought, Lucifer is the lightbringer and so in that religion, the one in which Christians feel is the incarnation of Evil is the last one they'd worship. I hope you're not believing in that discredited spiritual system. [/quote] I am not a gnostic but who discredited gnostic thought? You? Your church? Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and [color=red]the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God[/color]. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation. So you see, your religion's obsession with evil was wrong about Gnosis. The previous paragraph was copied from the Gnosis Archive (http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm). Christianity's mission is to discredit any other religion or philosophy to maintain that Christianity is the only true religion. You have studied your religion but you have not opened your mind to the study of other religions or philosophic thought so you have no right to condemn them or subject them to evil intentions. [/quote] Gnostics believe this, which I believe is PURE EVIL. http://www.theforbiddenreligion.com/lucifer-the-liberator.htm "11. LUCIFER, THE LIBERATOR Gnostic myths relate that Lucifer is the Messenger of the Unknowable God. We had said that this God, the greatest one, unreachable and unknowable, is unable to penetrate this limited universe of impure and satanic matter. But according to these myths, he can send someone, Lucifer. Only with a supreme sacrifice can an incredibly Spiritual and pure being of antimatter fire break through into the infernal world of this universe. According to Gnostic legends and myths, the great Unknowable God sent Lucifer, angel of indescribable fire and light, to show man the light and to help him wake up and see his true origin, the origin of his Spirit, which has been perversely imprisoned in this impure matter called body-soul. He is an uncreated being, who came to the created world to bring Light: Liberating Gnosis. The saving knowledge which can wake man up and help him free his imprisoned Spirit. The knowledge which allows him to know who he truly is, why he is here in this world and what he has to do to liberate himself and fulfil his Spirit, which belongs to another uncreated and unknowable plane. We have said that Lucifer came to the world to wake man up, to help him remember his divine origin, the divine origin of his Spirit, and to help him free himself from the body-soul in which he is trapped, and from created time and matter. " [/quote]
Let's get right to it.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.
No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.
All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".
How can I say all this with certainty?
BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.
No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.
Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.
A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.
SO--is there a GOD?
My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.
That's why I believe in God.
But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.
So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
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