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Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift

 
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Amazingly close to seventy-sevens.(490 years)

Wouldn't you agree?


Daniel 9:24
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. (Dan9)
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Isaac Newton said 'it' would definitely not happen before 2060--which most likely means the exact opposite.

I see 2016, 2017, or 2018 as good years according to the theology that suggests Israel will be re-established and then the 'return' would occur '1 generation' or '70 years' after... but I don't necessarily subscribe to that belief.

I believe that the date is a variable as many judgment prophecies in the Bible have proven to be variable, changable, etc. I believe the 70 sevens and the 42 months is specific but there are other events which occur outside of that...

I believe the French Revolution marks the end of the 42 mo and the rise of the Beast from the Earth with 2 horns which is either France, the USA, or parts of both as well as incorporated into other european countries as well...
 Quoting: GUANO



Thank you for your replies.

And compliments regarding your restraint with 'Mary'.

As you know, we disagree in many areas.

However- we seem to agree that the 70 sevens and 42 months are specific.

Sometimes the scriptures have multiple, congruent meanings.

Wouldn't you agree?



 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Daniel,

You call the mock of the Holy Eucharist, a restraint?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1465764




He apologized...


well I apologise for offending you.


 Quoting: GUANO


Why not turn the other cheek Mary?




?
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
why does Christianity teach Original Sin
 Quoting: Least Servant




Poor teachers.




.
Least Servant

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08/02/2011 10:51 PM
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
why does Christianity teach Original Sin
 Quoting: Least Servant




Poor teachers.




.
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


It's a part of the New Testament...?

What's baptism about then?
:romaflag:
Not enough to fight, too many to die.
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Jesus specifically taught to pray in private, and was constantly ditching the disciples to hit up a mountain top for some meditative relaxation with the Father. Churches and denominations are a good start as is doctrines, etc - but everyone including Paul, Jesus, and the anonymous writer of Hebrews acknowledges the initiate side of the teaching for the spiritually advanced(I definitly believe it relates to light coming into you, somehow through Jesus and Faith establishing a direct line to God/Father/Universal Mind if you will.)

Seriously do Christians read their own Bibles, this is from Hebrews (and is not some secret Scroll or text)

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

-----

It's all about direct experience of God through Jesus, not doctrines and dogma.

Peace!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 822524


These verses are talking about serious commitment. They're saying don't keep starting at the beginning and never get any deeper because you keep slipping back into your old ways.

They're NOT saying to forget the foundations. Simply to continue to grow and build on them.
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
why does Christianity teach Original Sin
 Quoting: Least Servant




Poor teachers.


 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


It's a part of the New Testament...?

What's baptism about then?
 Quoting: Least Servant





30The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me!!





!!
Anonymous Coward
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08/02/2011 11:14 PM
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
...


Isaac Newton said 'it' would definitely not happen before 2060--which most likely means the exact opposite.

I see 2016, 2017, or 2018 as good years according to the theology that suggests Israel will be re-established and then the 'return' would occur '1 generation' or '70 years' after... but I don't necessarily subscribe to that belief.

I believe that the date is a variable as many judgment prophecies in the Bible have proven to be variable, changable, etc. I believe the 70 sevens and the 42 months is specific but there are other events which occur outside of that...

I believe the French Revolution marks the end of the 42 mo and the rise of the Beast from the Earth with 2 horns which is either France, the USA, or parts of both as well as incorporated into other european countries as well...
 Quoting: GUANO



Thank you for your replies.

And compliments regarding your restraint with 'Mary'.

As you know, we disagree in many areas.

However- we seem to agree that the 70 sevens and 42 months are specific.

Sometimes the scriptures have multiple, congruent meanings.

Wouldn't you agree?



 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Daniel,

You call the mock of the Holy Eucharist, a restraint?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1465764




He apologized...


well I apologise for offending you.


 Quoting: GUANO


Why not turn the other cheek Mary?




?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I didn't see GUANO'S apology, if he did, very good. Our
Lord knows.

I still see that awful mock of pic though. Sick humor.


take care Daniel,


Mary
Anonymous Coward
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08/02/2011 11:18 PM
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
These are the hidden sayings that the living Jesus spoke. Whoever discovers the meaning of these sayings shall not taste death.
 Quoting: St. Jude 0


AMEN BROTHER PEACE AN GRACE AND LOVE TO YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!!!
GUANO

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
I actually couldn't agree with you more. But riddle me this...
 Quoting: GUANO


I'll hit this up later. bonghit
 Quoting: Least Servant


1000 years is a long time. I don't see the suppression of the Bible as evidence for the authenticity of Jesus as a particular emanation of the Divine.

I contend that if the Son of God had truly come to Earth, the force of his Will transcending space and time as we know it, there would be no need for the last 2000 years to have come to pass.

Riddle me this: why does Christianity teach Original Sin, if Christ was crucified and was resurrected as the Savior?

Was he not the Savior of ALL men, not just the ones born at this time and before?

These teachings make NO sense.
 Quoting: Least Servant


I don't see suppression as evidence of the Divinity of 'messiah' either. I see it as evidence that the Catholic Church as well as others were opposed to the books contained within the Bible--most specifically the anti-religious sentiment contained therein.

I don't believe that 'all' will be saved although I have played with that theory a bit and some aspects seem somewhat plausible.

I believe the last 2000 years has come to pass simply to allow us all to live. If you think about polarity you can say that everything has a polar opposite, therefore, before total ecstasy and 'oneness' can be felt and experienced, total chaos and destruction must come to be experienced as such, 'nirvana' is not something that can be attained in full at this point in time. And in that regard, none of that would have ever happened if the 'Rebellion' did not occur. And if 'rebellion' never occurred or never had the opporunity to occur, you can pretty much say that individual consciousness (me and you) would have never come into existance as we know it--and God wanted us to come into existance. Everything would be complete and total harmony, and it (the universe and everything in it) would have been a SINGLE ENTITY and none of us would ever have existed as we know it. Some people claim that this is the case today but it's obvious that it is not. Many of these concepts are best defined in many of the principals of Kabbalah.

I believe that Messiah came, was born of a virgin via divinely inspired rites and ritual performed hundreds of years prior, I believe that he rose and ascended into heaven in the presence of many witnesses and that thorough the rite of his life he conquered death and will re-substantiate in another form through what can only be termed as mass 'faith/belief' that the catastrophic events which are to come are indeed the coming of the ONE who is to rule over all men, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave. I believe that a persons perspective is enough to change or influence matter and that mass witness of catastrophic and 'aweful' events mixed with the collective fear (of Christ) and hope (for Christ) of all humans will manifest in a single event which will separate those who fear from those who hope. That is why 'every nation and tribe and tongue' (every single person alive at a given time) must hear of Christ before this type of 'mass-psychosis' event would be able to come into manifestation.

Riddle me this: why does Christianity teach Original Sin, if Christ was crucified and was resurrected as the Savior?
 Quoting: Least


Wikipedia: Original sin[1] is, according to a theological doctrine, humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man.[2] This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt by all humans through collective guilt.

The deal is this: The Hebrew rites were never meant to actually dissolve sins or atone for them--this is why it is different from other rites/rituals of the time period, and today, it's more like they were meant to eventually and supernaturally manifest someone who would act out all of those things that the rituals symbolized. No human can do anything to atone for sins as 'original sin' is directly sealed to individuality as individuality contains the possibility to make ones own choices and do as ones self wills (rebellion), it is contained in our DNA at this point, being born naturally, the structure of our brains is pre-determined by mitochondrial programming and we are born with great psychological dispositions. Jesus Christ and all of His Disciples, apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. should all have one thing in common, total self sacrifice to the will of God (or at least the perceived will of God). This is how one becomes "born again" and they become a SON OF GOD... a WATCHER if you will... They have retained their individual conscious state as they remove themselves from earth (their bodies) and given their bodies over to 'the anointing' and have only become outside witnesses to the events which transpire to the bodies in which they have given up. As someone who has experienced the power of the prophetic for myself, all I can say is that you're sitting there watching yourself saying things that you have no knowledge of and literally "messiah" has commandeered you're body. All this happens while you're in a state of either ecstasy, or you're in a state of combat against your own doubts and sins--It can actually be pretty violent sometimes and not pretty looking at all LOL.


Was he not the Savior of ALL men, not just the ones born at this time and before?
 Quoting: Least


This is a great and interesting topic and one that God has shrouded in mystery so that His servants will not become too lax.

If all men are saved (transfigured), there will be no equalness according to the Bible, so some may be in a pretty much 'lobotomized' state, but they will be unawares and totally happy...

It also seems that there may be two groups... The first 'resurrection' occurs as Messiah returns and gathers those who were chosen to be His... It appears that He, and those who are His, will rule over the 'survivors of the event' (it's not over yet) and that another great event will take place in order to complete the bond to the Godhead. The 'survivors' will rely on Christ and His people, but the earth will be replenished and the people will begin to see themselves as self-sufficient and many will not like living by the rules that have been established, and since all weapons will be destroyed and there will be no more war etc, they will think they can attack the 'new city' they will all be destroyed along with earth and most likely the whole universe. At that point, every living person will be resurrected and final accounting will be made... it is said that those who are not written in the book of life are cast in to the lake of fire BBQ, but we have previously seen that the Elect have already been redeemed and so this part does not apply to them, so those who are written in the book of life are either a group redeemed out of those who did not believe in christ, or everyone that has ever lived and was not previously redeemed has been written in this book of life and only the things which never actually lived in the first place (like man-made incorporeal entities, religions, worldviews, etc) will be destroyed...

These things are the false gods, they are just delusions formed by man which seem to have power over our lives in a very scary way...

Ownership for example... it's a delusion reinforced by rites and rituals made to honor the false god of 'ownership'...

They package it up, put their symbol on it, they then put it in a guarded building with another symbol on it as if it was ever theirs to begin with... then you pay for it with some-thing that represents your personal merits which is also only a ritual-delusion, and then they give you a piece of paper that, if you knew how to read, would 'tell you' that you own it... and it would be legitimately recognized in the temple-courts as proof of ownership...

All of these false gods, spirits and concepts live inside our brains, this is what i meant by 'lobotomized'... it would most likely be a lobotomy by truth... once 'truth' is actually witnessed in a manifest scenario it changes the makeup of your consciousness...

When you watch a fight on TV... You see a winner... you have witnessed it as defacto truth and thus it is!
Total Protonic Reversal...
GUANO

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Yes! (almost completed)


Not only that.

But...


the difference between 1290 days (Dan 12:11)
and 1335 days (Dan 12:12)

is 45 days

also a time and half time. (30 + 15)
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


that is very interesting indeed.
Total Protonic Reversal...
redlicorice

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
I actually couldn't agree with you more. But riddle me this...
 Quoting: GUANO


I'll hit this up later. bonghit
 Quoting: Least Servant


1000 years is a long time. I don't see the suppression of the Bible as evidence for the authenticity of Jesus as a particular emanation of the Divine.

I contend that if the Son of God had truly come to Earth, the force of his Will transcending space and time as we know it, there would be no need for the last 2000 years to have come to pass.

Riddle me this: why does Christianity teach Original Sin, if Christ was crucified and was resurrected as the Savior?

Was he not the Savior of ALL men, not just the ones born at this time and before?

These teachings make NO sense.
 Quoting: Least Servant


I don't see suppression as evidence of the Divinity of 'messiah' either. I see it as evidence that the Catholic Church as well as others were opposed to the books contained within the Bible--most specifically the anti-religious sentiment contained therein.

I don't believe that 'all' will be saved although I have played with that theory a bit and some aspects seem somewhat plausible.

I believe the last 2000 years has come to pass simply to allow us all to live. If you think about polarity you can say that everything has a polar opposite, therefore, before total ecstasy and 'oneness' can be felt and experienced, total chaos and destruction must come to be experienced as such, 'nirvana' is not something that can be attained in full at this point in time. And in that regard, none of that would have ever happened if the 'Rebellion' did not occur. And if 'rebellion' never occurred or never had the opporunity to occur, you can pretty much say that individual consciousness (me and you) would have never come into existance as we know it--and God wanted us to come into existance. Everything would be complete and total harmony, and it (the universe and everything in it) would have been a SINGLE ENTITY and none of us would ever have existed as we know it. Some people claim that this is the case today but it's obvious that it is not. Many of these concepts are best defined in many of the principals of Kabbalah.

I believe that Messiah came, was born of a virgin via divinely inspired rites and ritual performed hundreds of years prior, I believe that he rose and ascended into heaven in the presence of many witnesses and that thorough the rite of his life he conquered death and will re-substantiate in another form through what can only be termed as mass 'faith/belief' that the catastrophic events which are to come are indeed the coming of the ONE who is to rule over all men, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave. I believe that a persons perspective is enough to change or influence matter and that mass witness of catastrophic and 'aweful' events mixed with the collective fear (of Christ) and hope (for Christ) of all humans will manifest in a single event which will separate those who fear from those who hope. That is why 'every nation and tribe and tongue' (every single person alive at a given time) must hear of Christ before this type of 'mass-psychosis' event would be able to come into manifestation.

Riddle me this: why does Christianity teach Original Sin, if Christ was crucified and was resurrected as the Savior?
 Quoting: Least


Wikipedia: Original sin[1] is, according to a theological doctrine, humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man.[2] This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt by all humans through collective guilt.

The deal is this: The Hebrew rites were never meant to actually dissolve sins or atone for them--this is why it is different from other rites/rituals of the time period, and today, it's more like they were meant to eventually and supernaturally manifest someone who would act out all of those things that the rituals symbolized. No human can do anything to atone for sins as 'original sin' is directly sealed to individuality as individuality contains the possibility to make ones own choices and do as ones self wills (rebellion), it is contained in our DNA at this point, being born naturally, the structure of our brains is pre-determined by mitochondrial programming and we are born with great psychological dispositions. Jesus Christ and all of His Disciples, apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. should all have one thing in common, total self sacrifice to the will of God (or at least the perceived will of God). This is how one becomes "born again" and they become a SON OF GOD... a WATCHER if you will... They have retained their individual conscious state as they remove themselves from earth (their bodies) and given their bodies over to 'the anointing' and have only become outside witnesses to the events which transpire to the bodies in which they have given up. As someone who has experienced the power of the prophetic for myself, all I can say is that you're sitting there watching yourself saying things that you have no knowledge of and literally "messiah" has commandeered you're body. All this happens while you're in a state of either ecstasy, or you're in a state of combat against your own doubts and sins--It can actually be pretty violent sometimes and not pretty looking at all LOL.


Was he not the Savior of ALL men, not just the ones born at this time and before?
 Quoting: Least


This is a great and interesting topic and one that God has shrouded in mystery so that His servants will not become too lax.

If all men are saved (transfigured), there will be no equalness according to the Bible, so some may be in a pretty much 'lobotomized' state, but they will be unawares and totally happy...

It also seems that there may be two groups... The first 'resurrection' occurs as Messiah returns and gathers those who were chosen to be His... It appears that He, and those who are His, will rule over the 'survivors of the event' (it's not over yet) and that another great event will take place in order to complete the bond to the Godhead. The 'survivors' will rely on Christ and His people, but the earth will be replenished and the people will begin to see themselves as self-sufficient and many will not like living by the rules that have been established, and since all weapons will be destroyed and there will be no more war etc, they will think they can attack the 'new city' they will all be destroyed along with earth and most likely the whole universe. At that point, every living person will be resurrected and final accounting will be made... it is said that those who are not written in the book of life are cast in to the lake of fire BBQ, but we have previously seen that the Elect have already been redeemed and so this part does not apply to them, so those who are written in the book of life are either a group redeemed out of those who did not believe in christ, or everyone that has ever lived and was not previously redeemed has been written in this book of life and only the things which never actually lived in the first place (like man-made incorporeal entities, religions, worldviews, etc) will be destroyed...

These things are the false gods, they are just delusions formed by man which seem to have power over our lives in a very scary way...

Ownership for example... it's a delusion reinforced by rites and rituals made to honor the false god of 'ownership'...

They package it up, put their symbol on it, they then put it in a guarded building with another symbol on it as if it was ever theirs to begin with... then you pay for it with some-thing that represents your personal merits which is also only a ritual-delusion, and then they give you a piece of paper that, if you knew how to read, would 'tell you' that you own it... and it would be legitimately recognized in the temple-courts as proof of ownership...

All of these false gods, spirits and concepts live inside our brains, this is what i meant by 'lobotomized'... it would most likely be a lobotomy by truth... once 'truth' is actually witnessed in a manifest scenario it changes the makeup of your consciousness...

When you watch a fight on TV... You see a winner... you have witnessed it as defacto truth and thus it is!
 Quoting: GUANO


Anyone smoking bong needs more time to absorb it all, due to relaxation.
Writer's Block
GUANO

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
lots of bad grammar in the above but just try to best to bear with me haha.
Total Protonic Reversal...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
I thought for sure Jesus said: "Get the fuck off my property and next time bring a warrant, asshole!" I can't remember the bible verse but I'm quite sure it's in there.
GUANO

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Original Sin is not an Old Testament teaching, therefore it is not entirely relevant.
 Quoting: Least Servant


'Original sin' is just a term used to define groups of logic contained in the scriptures.

I believe the main concept is echoed throughout the Bible, I'll have no problem finding many OT scriptures which seem to point out it's existance.

However, there are many sub-theologies/doctrines within it which is why I try to steer clear of officially recognized 'christian terms' as they encourage profiling, conscious or unconscious.

I don't think I have ever used the term original sin myself other than repeating it for the sake of others.


"Original Sin" as defined today was created by the Catholic church which I strongly oppose. There are very, very slight doctrines within 'original sin' doctrine that i do not agree with... Along with pretty much all of the others...

Last Edited by GUANO on 08/03/2011 12:12 AM
Total Protonic Reversal...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Original Sin is not an Old Testament teaching, therefore it is not entirely relevant.
 Quoting: Least Servant


'Original sin' is just a term used to define groups of logic contained in the scriptures.

I believe the main concept is echoed throughout the Bible, I'll have no problem finding many OT scriptures which seem to point out it's existance.

However, there are many sub-theologies/doctrines within it which is why I try to steer clear of officially recognized 'christian terms' as they encourage profiling, conscious or unconscious.

I don't think I have ever used the term original sin myself other than repeating it for the sake of others.


"Original Sin" as defined today was created by the Catholic church which I strongly oppose. There are very, very slight doctrines within 'original sin' doctrine that i do not agree with... Along with pretty much all of the others...
 Quoting: GUANO


I, I, I, oh how personal opinion messes you up. I'll decide
the meaning of and whether I'll accept God's revelation.

We all have the stain of "original sin", Baptism removes
"original sin." You receive the grace of God in your soul
at Baptism.

GUANO, I hope and pray you were baptized, it is the beginning of God's presence in your soul. Water baptism
in the name of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A couple of paragraphs, not all, on original sin from
the Catechism.

+ + +

Man's first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279



+ + +
GUANO

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
I, I, I, oh how personal opinion messes you up. I'll decide
the meaning of and whether I'll accept God's revelation.

We all have the stain of "original sin", Baptism removes
"original sin." You receive the grace of God in your soul
at Baptism.

GUANO, I hope and pray you were baptized, it is the beginning of God's presence in your soul. Water baptism
in the name of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A couple of paragraphs, not all, on original sin from
the Catechism.

+ + +

Man's first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279



+ + +
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1465764


I was baptized via full immersion at the age of consent, it was in the "Foresquare" denomination which is an offshoot of the Pentecostals. However, I've always considered myself non-denominational.
Total Protonic Reversal...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
I, I, I, oh how personal opinion messes you up. I'll decide
the meaning of and whether I'll accept God's revelation.

We all have the stain of "original sin", Baptism removes
"original sin." You receive the grace of God in your soul
at Baptism.

GUANO, I hope and pray you were baptized, it is the beginning of God's presence in your soul. Water baptism
in the name of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A couple of paragraphs, not all, on original sin from
the Catechism.

+ + +

Man's first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279



+ + +
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1465764


I was baptized via full immersion at the age of consent, it was in the "Foresquare" denomination which is an offshoot of the Pentecostals. However, I've always considered myself non-denominational.
 Quoting: GUANO


hearts Thanks for your kind reply GUANO. I hope the words were
spoken in your full immersion baptism since I've never
attended one. In the Name of God the Father, Son and
Holy Spirit as Jesus said to do.

Baptism is a requirement for Salvation. Much Scripture
here and a help for some to understand infant baptism.

+ + +


"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

Some Christians claim that according to the Bible, we do not need to be baptized in order to be saved, i.e. go to heaven. They claim that accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior is enough (sufficient) for our personal salvation. Even some consider the Catholic Church a cult for teaching on the necessity of baptism for salvation. On a similar issue, some object to infant baptism, claiming it to be invalid since an infant is too young to willfully accept Jesus.

To address these issues on baptism, we need to begin with the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. First in John's Gospel, Jesus said:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit (i.e. baptized), he cannot enter the kingdom of God." [John 3:5; RSV]

In Mark's Gospel just before Christ ascended into heaven, He told His disciples:

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." [Mark 16:16]

At the end of Matthew's Gospel, Christ commanded the Apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [Matt. 28:19] This command from Jesus would be a waste of time if we were saved by merely accepting or trusting in Him.

In the second chapter of Acts, the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit. St. Peter stood up and addressed the crowd. After telling them that God made Jesus, whom they crucified, both Lord and Messiah, they were shakened and asked "what shall we do?" St. Peter answered:

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to Him." [Acts 2:38-39]

It is interesting to note that baptism and repentance are both connected to the forgiveness of personal sins - a key step towards salvation. Also noteworthy, this promise includes children; no age requirements are stated. The only requirement stated is "every one whom the Lord our God calls to Him" and not whoever is old enough to accept Jesus. Later St. Peter also wrote:

...in the days of Noah,...eight persons were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,... [1 Peter 3:20-21]

This Bible passage explicitly states that baptism "now saves you."
St. Paul also taught on the importance of baptism for salvation. In Acts 16:25-34, the jailer of Paul and Silas asked, "Men, what must I do to be saved?" [Acts 16:30]. Paul and Silas verbally replied:

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." [Acts 16:31]

However, almost immediately during the midnight hour, Paul and Silas continued their answer not by words but by action:

...and he (the jailer) was baptized at once, with all his family. [Acts 16:33]

Now these baptisms were performed with a sense of urgency. If baptism were not necessary for salvation, then why did St. Paul baptize the jailer and his family almost immediately during the midnight hour? Since baptism is a one-time event for a person, it was more expedient for St. Paul to simply baptize the whole family than to tell the jailer that baptism is necessary for salvation.

This particular passage leads into the second issue: infant baptism. Even though the Bible does not directly address the issue of infant baptism, it does record the baptisms of three different families. As quoted above all of the jailer's family were baptized (Acts 16:33). Also the family of Lydia (Acts 16:15) and the family of Stephanas (1 Cor 1:16) were baptized. Typically a family includes children. These three passages infer infant baptism, even though they may not explicitly indicate the baptism of children. There are no indications that only adults were involved. Now it is possible that a family may be childless; however, the chance that these three families had at least one young child is greater than the chance that all three had no children. A Christian, who objects to infant baptism, must interpret these three Bible passages with the assumption that each family had no young children.

Some may object to infant baptism since they claim that a person receiving it should be able to believe or have faith in Christ. Supposedly infants and young children cannot believe in Christ. Christ actually makes reference to little children who believe:

...but whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin... [Matt 18:6]

Elsewhere Jesus said:

"Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it. [Luke 18:16-17; also see Matt 11:25]

According to Jesus little children not only can believe but can have a faith superior to adults. Finally heaven may belong to children but we can still hinder their encounter with Jesus.

It should be stressed that nowhere in the Bible does it condemn infant baptism. Likewise nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state that only adult baptisms are valid. St. Paul in Col. 2:11-12 actually compares baptism to circumcision - an important religious ceremony for infant boys. (Jewish circumcision is anatomically inappropriate for girls.) St. Irenaeus in 190 A.D. acknowledged infant baptism in his book, Against Heresies (II 22:4). The custom of infant baptism dates back to the time of the Apostles as witnessed by Origen in the third century. St. Cyprian of Carthage in the third century and St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century encouraged infant baptism. It should be noted that during the third century, Christians were still dying for the faith and did not tolerate any novel teachings. Finally some may still object since the Bible does not record an actual infant baptism. However it should be remembered that St. John admitted to the fact that not everything Jesus or the Apostles did or taught were written down in the Bible (John 20:30; 21:25; 2 John 12; 3 John 13-14).

Now what happens to infants who die unbaptized? The answer to this question has not been revealed by God; however, we can be confident in God's justice and mercy that they are not condemned to hell. The "Limbo of Children" is theological speculation and has not been defined as doctrine by the Church.

It must be rightfully understood that we are saved by grace - a free gift from God due to Christ's death on the cross (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8). We are not merely saved by accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior (Matt 7:21-23). Our faith in Christ, our acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior, our good works and our repentance of personal sins are the fruits of actual grace - God working through us but respecting our free will (Phil 2:12-13; John 15:5; 2 Cor 6:1). Through baptism we are born again by receiving sanctifying grace which makes us right with God (1 Cor 6:11). Whether we are baptized as adults or our parents baptized us as infants, salvation is still a free gift - an inheritance (1Cor 6:9-10).

Whether adults or infants, we cannot accept Christ or even salvation without God's grace. However as adults we can freely reject God's grace and salvation through sin. Baptism does not earn or guarantee our salvation. Even though eternal life in Christ Jesus (salvation) is a free gift, we can still earn death (damnation) through serious, willful sin (Rom 6:23; Heb 10:26-27; 1 John 5:16-17; Gal 5:19-21; 1 Cor 6:9-10)
Anonymous Coward
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08/03/2011 04:26 AM
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
"It should be stressed that nowhere in the Bible does it condemn infant baptism. Likewise nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state that only adult baptisms are valid. St. Paul in Col. 2:11-12 actually compares baptism to circumcision - an important religious ceremony for infant boys. (Jewish circumcision is anatomically inappropriate for girls.) St. Irenaeus in 190 A.D. acknowledged infant baptism in his book, Against Heresies (II 22:4). The custom of infant baptism dates back to the time of the Apostles as witnessed by Origen in the third century. St. Cyprian of Carthage in the third century and St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century encouraged infant baptism. It should be noted that during the third century, Christians were still dying for the faith and did not tolerate any novel teachings. Finally some may still object since the Bible does not record an actual infant baptism. However it should be remembered that St. John admitted to the fact that not everything Jesus or the Apostles did or taught were written down in the Bible (John 20:30; 21:25; 2 John 12; 3 John 13-14)."

I don't understand the protest about infant baptism? You
see above, it was the custom of the first Christians.

Why would anyone want to wait for their child to receive
the grace of God in their soul?

just wondering....rose
GUANO

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08/03/2011 04:57 AM
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
"It should be stressed that nowhere in the Bible does it condemn infant baptism. Likewise nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state that only adult baptisms are valid. St. Paul in Col. 2:11-12 actually compares baptism to circumcision - an important religious ceremony for infant boys. (Jewish circumcision is anatomically inappropriate for girls.) St. Irenaeus in 190 A.D. acknowledged infant baptism in his book, Against Heresies (II 22:4). The custom of infant baptism dates back to the time of the Apostles as witnessed by Origen in the third century. St. Cyprian of Carthage in the third century and St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century encouraged infant baptism. It should be noted that during the third century, Christians were still dying for the faith and did not tolerate any novel teachings. Finally some may still object since the Bible does not record an actual infant baptism. However it should be remembered that St. John admitted to the fact that not everything Jesus or the Apostles did or taught were written down in the Bible (John 20:30; 21:25; 2 John 12; 3 John 13-14)."

I don't understand the protest about infant baptism? You
see above, it was the custom of the first Christians.

Why would anyone want to wait for their child to receive
the grace of God in their soul?

just wondering....rose
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1465764


I don't think there is inherently any power in 'ritual' or 'rite', the 'thing' happens is within the psyche of the participant and it is just more 'convincing' if a physical event is tied to it (just like it is more convincing that you 'own' something just because you have a piece of paper that says you do--that is also rite/ritual meant to influence the psyche). In that regard I think baptizing an infant may have undesirable effects in 'some' cases... The child may be impacted via the expectations the parents set upon their child and in a way it can become more of a curse. I find that PK's (Pastor's Kids) and typically any kid that is a child of someone devoutly religious typically has very serious rebellion issues, drugs, sex, and other immoral behaviors. Many of these things are the parent's fault as they did not trust God and effectively demonstrate the virtues of Christ in order to really impact the child, but rather pushed their will onto the child. You see this in secular culture as well... Devout businessmen expecting their children to follow-suit but their kids usually end up as some of the worst people... this is not always the case, but quite often.

I do not decide what others can do with their childeren. I just will not do it with mine and I trust that they will make the conscious decision to give their lives over to Jesus Christ instead of being 'sold' before they ever even knew about it...

Similar to Social Security... I would rather that my mother have baptized me as an infant than signed me up for that evil program created by the workings of the Devil.

Last Edited by GUANO on 08/03/2011 04:59 AM
Total Protonic Reversal...
GUANO

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
The 'Grace of God' is something that is imparted to the child via the parent's behaviors, words and actions. Not sprinkling with holy water... Just my opinion though...


What is the "grace of God"?


Grace:

Simple elegance or refinement of movement.
Courteous goodwill
An attractively polite manner of behaving
The condition or fact of being favored by someone

Grace (religious)
The free and unmerited favor of God (or the parent in this case), as manifested in the forgiveness of sinners and the bestowal of blessings

A period officially allowed for payment of a sum due or for compliance with a law or condition, esp. an extended period granted as a special favor



So... To bestow the Grace of God onto your child, one simply should behave in a righteous and virtuous manner-like that of Christ. Forgiving offenses and trespasses and bestowing blessings upon them...
Total Protonic Reversal...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
The 'Grace of God' is something that is imparted to the child via the parent's behaviors, words and actions. Not sprinkling with holy water... Just my opinion though...


What is the "grace of God"?


Grace:

Simple elegance or refinement of movement.
Courteous goodwill
An attractively polite manner of behaving
The condition or fact of being favored by someone

Grace (religious)
The free and unmerited favor of God (or the parent in this case), as manifested in the forgiveness of sinners and the bestowal of blessings

A period officially allowed for payment of a sum due or for compliance with a law or condition, esp. an extended period granted as a special favor



So... To bestow the Grace of God onto your child, one simply should behave in a righteous and virtuous manner-like that of Christ. Forgiving offenses and trespasses and bestowing blessings upon them...
 Quoting: GUANO


water sprinkling as in a SHOWER cleanses the aura, that is likely where that came from. As in baptism, forget it. Dunking baptism doesn't provide time to cleanse the aura, a bath however does. The behavior demonstrated by parents is much more valuable.

I think to have a celebration with perhaps a naming ceremony for a child is wondrous and worthy as a celebration of life. Baptism is a silly ritual not required by God. NONE of these silly rituals are required by God that man seems to like. Just because a bunch of ignorant people thought they were, does not make they required by god.

Grace should nearly always be demonstrated. There are times to not do so also. My kids got no grace when they were little and pulled out on my hand into the street, they got a whack to their fannies. And a stern lecture. Safety comes before "grace" in that regard. They got no grace when they egged cars, or committed certain crimes.

As to grace, they were generally allowed to experience their own consequences of other behaviors, good or bad with discussion at times as, did that work ok or not. You must teach children introspection and so must the churches if you are going to attend those monstrosities.
Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
...


The whole purpose of church, especially Catholic Mass, is to participate in the remembering Jesus. Believe it or not, you may know Jesus and his two commandments, but humanity will forget without ritual. How did the message get from 2000 years ago to now? Through ritual. Try passing a message around a classroom by whispering it to the next person. The message is severely distorted after 15 to 30 people.

What I say above is the PRIMARY purpose of going to Mass or a church service. You may personally never forget the message of Jesus, but for the person who hates the way their parents went about forcing them into a religion, the subsequent generation may never be taught about Jesus. Without a foundation of where behaviors originated and why, the beautiful message of Christ could be lost within 100 years. This is very hard to believe, but it is possible. A group of people who are willing to admit that human memory is fallible should find it their duty to continue the rituals and sacraments that keep Jesus Christ in our collective memory.

Study the origins of Christianity (The Way), and you will find that God did incarnate on this Earth. I know this because powerful, corrupt men can co-opt a great idea, but they cannot create it and then run it. Think about that for a while. A miracle occurred 2000 years ago, and it is our responsibility to make sure it is never forgotten. If you can think of a better way to hold the memory in humanity's mind than others then go for it because we should all try our hardest to keep Jesus alive in our minds and hearts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1010794


Were YOU there? I dont think so,You only know what you have been told,Generation after generation.Have you ever researched your religion,I have,It's DARK and millions died.Try a little research even though your told it's sacreligious to do so. I promise lightning will not strike you.
 Quoting: JimBomB


You miss the point. I make reference to the corruption through the ages which makes it even more amazing that the message of Christ lives on today.

Do you think the owners of the Federal Reserve could come up with the ideas of Christ (assuming they were not known yet)? Then do you think they could carry them forward 2000 years. In no way am I condoning corruption and death by what I am writing. Men will always co-opt a big idea for their advantage and then the killing begins. It does not mean that it stays that way.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1010794


Point taken but,The JESUS Illusion itself is what I mean. Grant it most People in general need some type of physical identification to be able to grasp almost anything.Jesus may have been here and may have been very well spoken and charezmatic,who really knows? I have had two Profound experiences in my life,nieither of which led me to believe it had anything to do with jesus or the bible.
 Quoting: JimBomB


If this (Life) were nothing more than a Shakespearean Tragic Comedy, wouldn't that make the bibles nothing more than props, in this elaborate production played for our Mother, who never gets to play but rather, stays home all the time and minds the Kitchen We call the Universe? hmm

Ribbit tiphatsmiley

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
These are the hidden sayings that the living Jesus spoke. Whoever discovers the meaning of these sayings shall not taste death.
 Quoting: St. Jude 0


Most people are too petty and fearful to obtain the truth of the divinity within us all. Your must first kill your ego and persona before you can begin to live in the light of truth. We all have the potential of becoming like God but people would rather cling to this childish notion that going to church and eating some crackers will send them to heaven.

It take A LOT more work than that to free yourself from this swine pit. Fortunately for most people, they like rolling around in shit.

Solve et Coagula

"You" must die before You can live!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1457857






Ribbit dance6

"To pee or not to pee, that is the question!" - Old Toad Proverb

“Unbeknownst to most, Kindness is not a STD, so pass it on!” – Old Toad Proverb

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Even God has a God.
 Quoting: SickScent


There is only one Almighty God who created it all. Without beginning and without end. No one is above Him.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1433617


There is ONE that is above Him and She is the TRUE God. crazygurl

Ribbit chuckle

"To pee or not to pee, that is the question!" - Old Toad Proverb

“Unbeknownst to most, Kindness is not a STD, so pass it on!” – Old Toad Proverb

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
why is a boring religious thread from 6 years ago pinned?
 Quoting: nexuseditor


No Doom! crybuckets

Ribbit badhairdaze

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
The Bible is a book. A bunch of paper wraped in a cover. It has been rewritten and passed down so much that who knows what is true and what is not. Even though they read it and truly believe it, they are to drowned in their own perception to keep an open mind and relise that it is just a book and we can't honestly say that it is the true word of god.
 Quoting: Harsesis 822519


The bible IS the word of God, Passed down since the creation of Man. The only problem is those who have been in power have tried to distort the truth through erroneous translations using outdated language in order to confuse people. Those who earnestly seek the truth from God become disillusioned with a book that's hard to understand and thus fail to grasp the true meaning.

The best advice I can give is seek the literal translations, so far I've had good luck with the English Standard Version, everything makes sense. Second, read it along side the other versions of the same story. In other words, while you're reading the bible, study along with historic events to get a true scope of the word, and if it helps, also read along with the works of Zecharia Sitchin, which many may not know is based on what is probably the origin of some of the biblical texts.

Hopefully God wont be angry for mentioning books not written by him but the Lord's word is Good. May God bless the one's who seek him and accept him into his heart.
 Quoting: Cristo_Dentro 1489307

Please don't give any advice to anyone, since you know knot what you speak of. naughty

All bibles are trillions of years old, written for the original Earth Endgame Matrix, and reused in every edition since then. chuckle

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
God warned us about "the knowledge of good and evil".

Why don't we realize this meant DON'T JUDGE.

TPTB use our judgment to create hell on earth. War and conflict.


Also...

FEAR GOD and Ignore Jesus' teaching of compassion.

Just worship. Ignore everything else. That's OK!

Forget about compassion and understanding. That's all BS for wimps.




Believe that death is final and you are stuck in hell forever... (reincarnating until you learn THE LESSON - LOVE.)
 Quoting: Who I AM 1485307


There are NO lessons to be learned from this Game. chuckle

forsalesmiley

Ribbit pieface

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
If you want answers...

Ask YOURSELF!

Don't let anyone between you and God.

Especially Organized Religion.

Seriously!!!
 Quoting: Who I AM 1485307


smileyclap

+199

Ribbit smileyholdingsmi

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Butt Ugly Toad

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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
people would rather cling to this childish notion that going to church and eating some crackers will send them to heaven.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1457857


fatfree
 Quoting: GUANO


The wine isn't bad either. tounge
 Quoting: Least Servant


[link to www.trekkelly.com]

Ribbit chuckle

Last Edited by Butt Ugly Toad on 08/04/2011 03:53 PM

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“Unbeknownst to most, Kindness is not a STD, so pass it on!” – Old Toad Proverb

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Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
Even God has a God.
 Quoting: SickScent


There is only one Almighty God who created it all. Without beginning and without end. No one is above Him.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1433617


There is ONE that is above Him and She is the TRUE God. :crazygurl:

Ribbit chuckle
 Quoting: Butt Ugly Toad


wrong on all counts people and you ones are the Gods helping to create the creation. OK. There is the FATHER and then there are the Creator Sons. REad the UB. Generally the FAther sits on his tutti, I don't mean that badly. HIS SONS DO THE WORK and CREATING. Get used to the idea, you ones are sons of God.

The father of "Jesus" is also YOUR FATHER. Still not comprehended on this planet and HE TAUGHT THAT and I have no idea truly if that is in the NT or not. I don't think so. His own apostles did not fully understand that either.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift
The Bible is a book. A bunch of paper wraped in a cover. It has been rewritten and passed down so much that who knows what is true and what is not. Even though they read it and truly believe it, they are to drowned in their own perception to keep an open mind and relise that it is just a book and we can't honestly say that it is the true word of god.
 Quoting: Harsesis 822519


The bible IS the word of God, Passed down since the creation of Man. The only problem is those who have been in power have tried to distort the truth through erroneous translations using outdated language in order to confuse people. Those who earnestly seek the truth from God become disillusioned with a book that's hard to understand and thus fail to grasp the true meaning.

The best advice I can give is seek the literal translations, so far I've had good luck with the English Standard Version, everything makes sense. Second, read it along side the other versions of the same story. In other words, while you're reading the bible, study along with historic events to get a true scope of the word, and if it helps, also read along with the works of Zecharia Sitchin, which many may not know is based on what is probably the origin of some of the biblical texts.

Hopefully God wont be angry for mentioning books not written by him but the Lord's word is Good. May God bless the one's who seek him and accept him into his heart.
 Quoting: Cristo_Dentro 1489307

Please don't give any advice to anyone, since you know knot what you speak of. naughty

All bibles are trillions of years old, written for the original Earth Endgame Matrix, and reused in every edition since then. chuckle

Ribbit hunter
 Quoting: Butt Ugly Toad


No responding to Toad here but to the one where I bolded above. MAN HAS BEEN ON THIS PLANET since the times of the dinosaurs. There was never any first man on this planet, per se. The ADAM and EVE story was completely corrupted and they were here 38,000 years ago as it was.

Man that EVOLVED on this planet, showed up almost 1,000,000 years ago, when he was still living in trees, that is when the Father Fragments began to show up here. There were folks who migrated from other worlds here LONG BEFORE THEN. Do you think the earth was planted with man only a few thousand years ago? NO< but it was cleansed of most men after Atlantis. The 144,000 folks in the bible are ones who came to restart man on this world after that. And it does say, correctly in genesis, even though most of it is messed that man should REPLENISH the world. Because he had been cleaned from it. That is why there is little evidence of man before a certain time, it's mostly under the oceans, etc.

Adam and Eve were here long before the last cleansing. And then even after the last cleanse there was the era of the great flooding when man brought down the firmament. The 40 days of rain thing. This was an act of war against God. God did not do that. YOu ones have got to stop accepting the very messed up bible as 100% truth. It is not. And it is the story of only one tiny group of people on this planet at that.