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Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict

 
Biblical scholar
04/20/2005 12:17 PM
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Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
St John the Divine (a Greek) referred to the second "Beast" in Revelation 13: 11 as a man whose name has the gematraic number value of "six hundred threescore and six" (666). The letters of the Greek alphabet have the gematraic values:
a (alpha ~ a) = 1
b (beta ~ b) = 2
g (gamma ~ g) = 3
d (delta ~ d) = 4
e (epsilon ~ e) = 5
V (stau ~ st/v) = 6*
z (zeta ~ z) = 7
h (eta ~ e) = 8
q (theta ~ th) = 9
i (iota ~ i/j) = 10
k (kappa ~ k) = 20
l (lambda ~ l) = 30
m (mu ~ m) = 40
n (nu ~ n) = 50
x (xi ~ ks) = 60
o (omicron ~ o) = 70
p (pi ~ p) = 80
J (dikappa ~ q) = 90*
r (rho ~ r) = 100
s (sigma ~ s) = 200
t (tau ~ t) = 300
u (upsilon ~ u) = 400
j (phi ~ f) = 500
c (chi ~ ch) = 600
y (psi ~ ps) = 700
w (omega ~ o) = 800
´ (digamma) = 900*
(* = obsolete letters. Ordinary Greek had only 24 letters.)
To indicate that the letters were intended to represent numerical amounts, a small dash was placed beside the character.

It should be emphasized that the practice of gematria in ancient Greece and elsewhere was not a secret code. It was common. If one examines Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, one may observe that in many cases the page-numbers were marked via gematria (so on page 14 one would find the letters ID¢). In
some copies of Revelation, also, the "number of the beast" is written simply as ´cxV´.

The early Christian writer Irenaeus suggested "Lateinos" and "Euanthas" as possible explanations. He admitted that both of these were only guesses. ("Lateinos" is a substandard spelling of "Latinus," the kingdom from which the Roman Empire gradually emerged. Irenaeus didn´t say what "Euanthas" was.) "Teitan" was another guess. As
you can see by calculating the values of the individual letters in the list above, "Lateinos" and "Euanthas" and "Teitan" add up, individually, to a value of 666.

So, 666 may be the numerical value of the characters in a certain Greek name. Many interpreters believe that the name will belong to a worldwide government, or to the leader of a worldwide government that will emerge in the last days. They usually forget to realise that the text of Revelation was Greek, so it is inadmissable to find English words whose letters add in value to 666. To the original readership of Revelation, though, the "mark of the Beast" was a description of certificates which the Roman government issued to to citizens who had made loyalty-oaths to the Roman Emperor.

These loyalty-oaths involved either a statement that Caesar was God, or the offering of incense to a statue of the Emperor. The description in Revelation 13:16 of "a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads" figuratively describes the act of willfully (that is, with one´s head) and physically (that is, with one´s right hand) affirming that Caesar is Divine. The lack of a certificate would disqualify a person from making business transactions (which interlocks with Rev. 13:17, which says, "... no one may buy or sell except those who have the mark: the name of the beast, or the number of his name").

So, to the original readers of Revelation, the Mark of the Beast was simply a way of describing loyalty-oaths to Caesar which involved the performance of an act of worship to
Caesar. Taking the Mark -- willfully making the loyalty-oath -- was to be avoided at all cost; those who made such an oath could expect to be "tormented with fire and
brimstone" as "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" (Rev. 14:9-11).

It is possible that the loyalty-oaths which the early Christians were tempted to make may be a sort of prototype of a loyalty-oath which Christians in the last days will be tempted to make.

During the Reformation, Martin Luther noted that "Benediktos":
2+5+50+5+4+10+20+300+70+200 = 666
added up to 666 in Greek gematria. He thought it might refer to a Pope named Benedict or to Benedictine monks. We now face the remarkable situation that the new pope has taken the very name that Luther speculated would refer to the Beast 666. The question facing us now is this: do we, like knee-jerk, mindless debunkers, dismiss this as coincidence, or should we take a more sensible, considered attitude than one which requires acceptance of a highly implausible stroke of chance? Roman Catholics will, of course, dismiss the identification out of hand as ridiculous. But then that is to be expected. However, the fact that Luther predicted the very same name for a pope in the end-times that many believe is upon us now requires a more careful, dispassionate discussion. Let´s have it.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
He´s here!!!

scream
Biblical scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Let us assume that is the case. To provide support, we need more than the fact (however amazing) that the pope´s new name in Greek has the number value 666. Does anyone see in Revelation chapter 13 any detail that could possibly be correlated with former Cardinal Ratzinger? What about his having "two horns like a lamb, and speaking "as a dragon"? Make any sense of that?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Martin Luther?!?!?

This is the same guy who threw out books of the bible that were in the Septuagint a century or two prior to Christ existence! The protestant bible was written by Martin Luther...not the Apostles.

Your faith is in Martin Luther or the Church (1 tim 3;15) built on Peter? (Mat 16:18-19)
Biblical scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
I am not interested in focussing on Martin Luther and his theology. This isn´t a Protestant vs Catholic thread. It´s about whether the gematraic value of Benedict in Greek being 666 is more than coincidence.
Bible scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
In view of the lack of comment/interest, I guess no one owns a bible anymore.
paranoid eyes
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
check it out. martin luther was a racist. baptism has it´s roots in paganism. did jesus perform pagan rites just like the heathen catholics. oh my god i´m gonna claw my eyes out.
paranoid eyes
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
heres some LUTHER WAS AN ANTI-SEMITE

Here are some quite shocking quotes from Luther which show that he was a rabid anti-Semite:

"The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves"

"We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."

"The blind Jews are truly stupid fools"

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people."

"eject them forever from this country"

"they are nothing but thieves and robbers"

"What then shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?"

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews"

"They are the real liars and bloodhounds"

"We are at fault for not slaying them."

"I shall give you my sincere advice: first to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them"

"If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs"

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham´."


Martin Luther was not a Christian man, but, instead, he was a brutal man who persecuted the Jews unmercifully.

The word of God calls Martin Luther a liar:

1John 4:20- If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
interestiung quotes from martin luther , man of god
Clio
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Biblical Scholar -

I believe that this is more than coincidence. the other timepieces on the world stage indicate the end is imminent.

The Gog/Magog alliance lacks only a single player, and that player is moving ever closer to entering an agreement with the other four.

The indicators and enablers to allow economic sanctions at the individual level at the point of sale are in place in the US and around most of the globe in all places except the 3rd world nations. All that is now required is the triggering event to force a "mark" of any kind that can also be used to identify those against whom economic sanctions will be enforced.

Clio
Bible scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
I reluctantly begin to feel that I have to agree with you. But I would like other confirmations of this profound discovery, if, indeed, it is that, before accepting it.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
dude...the guy is 78 years old. Come one if he was "the beast" he would have offed JP II a while ago and taken control then. He is a feeble old man physically and seems like a very good guy overall.
Biblical scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Paranoid eyes: My thread is not in support or defense of Luther. I merely mentioned him for the historical fact that he thought 666 would be someone called Benedict.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Well, there were 15 of the Benedicts before this one. Were they all beasts too?
Biblical scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
I will stay sharp but I won´t invent fantasies. 666 is the number of a man. Any other association like the one you give is pure invention.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Since Martin Luther there have been 9 Popes named Benedict.
So I´d give it no merritt.
Bible scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
AC 1684:
No, of course previous Benedicts were not the beast. The issue I raise is whether this one is the one referred to by St John the Divine, especially in view of St Malachy´s prediction. I don´t know. I would like to know what other evidence makes some people here so sure.
Bible scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
AC 3280:
The fact that there have been other Pope Benedicts is irrelevant to the issue of whether THIS one is St John´s ´666.´
ShadowDancer
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
bump

Yes the writings of Luther and St Malachy mirror what can be seen and understood-if one searches, it is revealed.
Trac
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Dear Biblical Scholar:

Where in John´s writing does he use Arabic numerals 666? You´re reading the King James translation, are you not?

I believe if you read the original writing he uses the character of 6 from three different languages, VI, S and A or more correctly "VISA", the mark of the Beast, meaning the Beast is global usury and the world banking system which some consider satanic and controlling of all social energies. He explicitly stated that one could not buy or sell without this mark. How much more obvious could it be?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Hmm...a lamb speaking and a dragon..
I would say that maybe he is going to ally himself with China.
mbk
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
This is madness. You call yourselves Christians, and yet you trade in nothing but prophecies, none of which men can ever hope to understand.

You ignore the whole point of Jesus dying for you. To you it´s just a game of numbers, Kabbalism.

You have trashed Christianity for occultism.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
What about his having "two horns like a lamb, and speaking "as a dragon"? Make any sense of that?

Hmm; speaking "as a dragon"...
The Latin and Latin based languages have an outstanding "S", which has the most words in Diction and is the largest in the Encyclopedia set. So Says SerpentSssss!

and like a lamb with horns...
A Great American Bison ("Buffalo")!!!
Or maybe its literally "extentions" as protrusions -so the last 2 states Northward and Westward Alaska and Hawaii!
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
Two horns? Look at his hat.
.
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
damned
willow
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
pretty interesting OP, these days I question everything..
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
the original book of revelations would have been written in either ancient hebrew or aramaic, correct? if that is right, then wouldn´t the numerical values attributed to the letters be different?
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
maybe it´s his past,
... a lamb with two horns.
speaks to/with dragons,
that´s easy enough.

cowKD

sheep
avatar too nli
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
indeed, was the original written in greek?... or was it hebrew or aramaic or somesuch?... i was wondering the same thing...

interestingly, ´benedict´ = 62 in the ´alvin fernald gematria´

he looks fairly harmless to me... maybe he´s a secret agent cyborg mutant reptilian peter pan type of being... who knows?

i mean, what IS in the catacombs of the vatican?

woo woo
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
"You have trashed Christianity for occultism"

occultism:

"The doctrine or study of the supernatural, and practices purporting to achieve communication with things hidden and mysterious."

Wasn´t ´occultism´ practiced way before Christianity?

In this day, is there anything wrong with wanting to ´achieve communication with things hidden and mysterious?

Aren´t the real answers to our existence ´hidden´ from us? and ´mysterious´ to us?
Biblical scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
TRac 514:

"Where in John´s writing does he use Arabic numerals 666? You´re reading the King James translation, are you not?"

Yes, I use that translation. John does not use explicitly the Arabic numerals. He says:" Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred three score and six" (Rev. 13:18). This is the number 666. The fact that John does not write the number in its Arabic form is irrelvant. The original Greek text expresses this number as its translated text. It does NOT express it as three characters. So your theory is plain wrong. Besides, the ´mark´ of the Beast is not the same thing as his number. You confuse the two, and John does not say what the mark looks like. If he had meant the gematraic number of the name of the Beast, he would surely have said so. Your interpretation is a non-starter - just one of many that people have offered. None of them convince me. If this prophecy is true, the symbol has yet to appear, as far as I am concerned.
Hebrew scholar
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Martin Luther thought the ´beast 666´ would be a pope called Benedict
avatar too nli:

"indeed, was the original written in greek?... or was it hebrew or aramaic or somesuch?... i was wondering the same thing..."

As far as uncovering the identity of the Beast is concerned, it does not make any difference in what language the text of Revelation was originally written. Just think for a minute. What matters is what was the native language of John the Divine. Scholars agree that he was Greek, possibly also Jewish. If he had heard the name of the Beast in a prophetic vision, he would have phonetically spelt the sound in his own language (Greek) and then encrypted the name with gematria, as was the custom then amongst learned and pious people. As the name is not spelt out, only its gematraic value, it does not matter whether John wrote the text of Revelation in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. There are many reference works that list the gematraic values of Hebrew and Greek letters. The list of numbers I gave is the standard one.

One other thing: The fact that I cited Wynn Westcott - a recognised authority in the 19th century on the religious aspect of numbers - does not have the ludricrous implication that I believe in the Occult simply because he uses the word "occult" in its proper sense of meaning "hidden"!

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