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Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav

 
Inquirer
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 02:45 PM
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Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Is it true.....Alexander the Great was not Macedonian Greek
but Slavik from Slavdoms SouthSlavic collective of peoples.
Observer (OP)
User ID: 931694
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04/01/2010 02:50 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Alexander the Great was a Macedonian Greek, just like Leonidas was a Spartan Greek and just like Pericles who was an Athenian Greek.
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/01/2010 02:52 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Slavs appeared in the 6th century AD.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 696201
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04/01/2010 02:53 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Yep, there`s no such thing as macedonian nation 5a
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 373696
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04/01/2010 02:54 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Prior to Alexander, Macedon was sort of the East St. Louis of Greece (sorry, I don't know a British equivalent.) He was greek, but a pretty low class of Greek.

After they ruled the world for awhile the other greeks looked on them a little differently.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 918596
Ireland
04/01/2010 02:54 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Is it true.....Alexander the Great was not Macedonian Greek
but Slavik from Slavdoms SouthSlavic collective of peoples.
 Quoting: Inquirer 931694


Macedonian = Slavic
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 12306
United States
04/01/2010 02:55 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Mecedonians are Slavic silly.
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/01/2010 02:55 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
OP failed. Two nicknames, different claims lol
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 918596
Ireland
04/01/2010 02:58 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Slavs appeared in the 6th century AD.
 Quoting: Ostria


Yes but they existed as Thracians, Dacians, and Sycthians prior to the term Slav caming into use.
Risto Stephov (OP)
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04/01/2010 03:02 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
I was having a conversation with my relatives the other day and we came to the conclusion that Yugoslavs [SouthSlavs]are the real descendants of Alexander the Great's Macedonians.

If you seriously think about it, Alexander was a Macedonian king and he lived in Macedonia and he spoke Macedonian.

So it becomes perfectly clear, the people that live in the republic of Macedonia must be the desecdants of the ancient Macedonians of antiquity.

Why do Greeks claim Alexander the Great to be one of them ?

I just don't understand the logic, Alexander the Great was Macedonian therefore Yugoslav [SouthSlav].
Ostria

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Greece
04/01/2010 03:08 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Slavs appeared in the 6th century AD.


Yes but they existed as Thracians, Dacians, and Sycthians prior to the term Slav caming into use.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 918596


All these are different tribes. Not Macedonians
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/01/2010 03:09 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
I was having a conversation with my relatives the other day and we came to the conclusion that Yugoslavs [SouthSlavs]are the real descendants of Alexander the Great's Macedonians.

If you seriously think about it, Alexander was a Macedonian king and he lived in Macedonia and he spoke Macedonian.

So it becomes perfectly clear, the people that live in the republic of Macedonia must be the desecdants of the ancient Macedonians of antiquity.

Why do Greeks claim Alexander the Great to be one of them ?

I just don't understand the logic, Alexander the Great was Macedonian therefore Yugoslav [SouthSlav].
 Quoting: Risto Stephov 931694


But you are wrong. The Greeks dont claim anything. The Macedonians always claimed to be Greeks.

Check this Philip coin (Alexanders father)
[link to www.greecetravel.com]
mathetes

User ID: 793782
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04/01/2010 03:10 PM

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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Alexander's mother Olympias was according to Plutarch descended from Achilles.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931724
Canada
04/01/2010 03:33 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Sounds like someone Slavic found a rope and wants to be a cowboy.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 679132
Australia
04/01/2010 03:51 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The modern greeks are not the same race as the ancient greeks (just look at the sculptures of the ancients and you'll see what I mean).
Therefore the modern macedonians are probably different from the ancient ones also.
Lu Min Ati (OP)
User ID: 931694
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04/01/2010 04:07 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
[link to macedonia-evidence.org]

362 International scholars of repute have got together to form a loose academic grouping, a politicised unit ready and willing to speak with one voice in order to protect and defend the boundaries of academic reference points. Academic reference points come first, above and beyond those of poor ill thought out political considerations.

FYRoM was recognised as "Republic of Macedonia" [RoM] in haste and under false pretenses. Greece has recognised historic rights over the ancient region of Macedonia.

Today's Greeks are the sole and legal modern representaives of that Hellenic legacy. No other modern people on this planet are closer to the ancient Macedonians and their Hellenic legacy, than today's modern Greeks.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 929725
Turkey
04/01/2010 04:10 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
its rather hard to assess.

first, greece has always been invaded and immigrated to by people from north :

mycenians were indo european immigrants to greece, who adopted minoan lifestyles.

then dorians conquered greece, enslaved whomever remained after mycenians fled (who fled to many places and also to eastern anatolia, aegean coast, to set up ionia there - where democracy was first invented in proper form)

these people came from north. maybe they were from south balkans, maybe from even more north. but logic is they should be geographically close.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 929725
Turkey
04/01/2010 04:11 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
one thing i always wondered though is who the fuck sea peoples were. still noone knows for sure despite a lot of speculation about.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 04:11 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The Greek Character, having formed over millenia is best summarized as being multi faceted. Most people would firstly consider Greeks as being Mediterraneans, but theres more.....

1....Mediterranean: Greeks could be clustered together with Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the French, within the context of a greater Greaco-Roman civilization.

2....Western European: since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization.

3....Eastern European: since Greeks baptized christianized and civilized the Slavic Tribes into the Greek Orthodox Religion.

4....Middle-Eastern: since the Greek expansion into Asia ensured prolonged ties with the Oriental Eastern Cultures.

5....Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this term, Greeks prefer Southeastern European.... anyway, a Balkan Identity similar to Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians exist's. There are common elements, contributions from the Eastern Roman Empire and from the Ottoman Empire bears testament to shared attributes.

The Greeks have always been an International People since time immemorial!
The Greek Character is Multifaceted, drawing in, embedded experiances from 5 different geographical locations.
The Greeks were never Restricted to one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border's in ancient times.
Greece in ancient times could be visualized as spanning from the far West of Spain.....to as far East as Georgia.

There was never a country called Greece in ancient times, instead there were Greeks inhabiting Many regions....from Spain to Georgia.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931755
United States
04/01/2010 04:13 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Prior to Alexander, Macedon was sort of the East St. Louis of Greece (sorry, I don't know a British equivalent.) He was greek, but a pretty low class of Greek.

After they ruled the world for awhile the other greeks looked on them a little differently.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 373696

You don't need to grovel to the Brits. Who the fuck are you? Obama?
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:14 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Ancient Macedonians were one of 230 known Greek Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms. The ancient Macedonians belong to the Hellenic collective of peoples, the Greek family of Nations. The ancient Macedonians were at the northern extremity of the Greek world. The Greek northern frontier was protected and defended by the ancient Macedonians. The ancient Macedonians protected Greece from barbarian invasions and attacks, they learned new military skills and used that military power to take over and Govern Greece as a unified Nation of Hellenes.

Ancient Macedonians under Alexander the Great unified the fractious Greeks into one Nation and proceeded to spread the Greek language and culture to the far reaches of the known world. How do we know all this....it was written down and recorded for posterity, as if the ancient Macedonians knew that one day into the far and distant future their Greekness might be questioned, so they took out an Insurance policy.....

Wherever the ancient Macedonians went, they left their "Calling Card" carved into stone for all to see their Greekness.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931755
United States
04/01/2010 04:15 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
its rather hard to assess.

first, greece has always been invaded and immigrated to by people from north :

mycenians were indo european immigrants to greece, who adopted minoan lifestyles.

then dorians conquered greece, enslaved whomever remained after mycenians fled (who fled to many places and also to eastern anatolia, aegean coast, to set up ionia there - where democracy was first invented in proper form)

these people came from north. maybe they were from south balkans, maybe from even more north. but logic is they should be geographically close.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929725

Alexander kicked Turkish dupah, didn't he?
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 04:17 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Ancient Macedonians were one of 230 known Greek Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms. The ancient Macedonians belong to the Hellenic collective of peoples, the Greek family of Nations. The ancient Macedonians were at the northern extremity of the Greek world. The Greek northern frontier was protected and defended by the ancient Macedonians. The ancient Macedonians protected Greece from barbarian invasions and attacks, they learned new military skills and used that military power to take over and Govern Greece as a unified Nation of Hellenes.

Ancient Macedonians under Alexander the Great unified the fractious Greeks into one Nation and proceeded to spread the Greek language and culture to the far reaches of the known world. How do we know all this....it was written down and recorded for posterity, as if the ancient Macedonians knew that one day into the far and distant future their Greekness might be questioned, so they took out an Insurance policy.....

Wherever the ancient Macedonians went, they left their "Calling Card" carved into stone for all to see their Greekness.
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694

Is that why they turn barstools upside down?
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:17 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses. On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of ex-President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized FYRoM as the “Republic of Macedonia” totally disregarding World Academia and Balkan political history.

Macedonia(n) when this name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of World Academic [The World Body of Knowledge].

The Advisors to ex-President Bush issued ill thought out, poor substandard and flawed Advice, totally disregarding World Academia, they went ahead with recognition at the expense of upsetting Greece, a staunch and loyal long time member of Nato. These Advisors based their ill thought out, poor Advice on political and geo-political strategic considerations which today are No Longer Applicable.

Human rights and the rights of modern people to self express as they wish is no longer considered viable or even appropriate in the face of strong academic arguments in favour of the rights of existing Indigenous peoples that already use the Macedonia(n) name in the regional geographic context. The People of FYRoM declaring themselves "Macedeonians" is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have been residing in that same region from the beginning, since time immemorial.

FYRoM has a Choice......Choose a Name which Properly Reflects and Distinguishes SlavMacedonians from GreekMacedonians. The Difference between the Two are Considerable, for example:

GreekMacedonians are the modern heirs and Inheritors of the Hellenic legacy, which Includes Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians of Antiquity. World Academia (The World Body of Knowledge) Endorse and Support the Greekness of the Macedonians.

FYRoM has to differentiate itself from Hellenism by using a Prefix / Suffix in their New Name.....This is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians are expecting and this is what the world is waiting for!

Macedonia(n) by Deception is NOT Macedonia(n) at all!
Macedonia Void of it's Hellenic Elements is NOT Macedonia at all!

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......Today's Greeks can Prove This at any Legal Setting.

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 04:18 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
ONLY ONE MACEDONIA

MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS -- NOT GREEKS!


let's try some EVIDENCE, shall we...


Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).


Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.
[link to www.eupedia.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 04:19 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
from same link as above post

The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).


ancient Macedonian Infantry National headdress (Phrygian):
Nick the Greek (OP)
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United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:20 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM [Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia] uses that Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses. Individuals are free to Self Identiify, Declare as they wish.....within legal constraints and common sense parameters.

As an "Individual", one has the right to self express and declare as they wish, providing that it is within the necessary legal parameters and criteria, and of course by doing so, you do not liable yourself or Other's in that due process. As an Individual you can allocate yourself any Name you wish. FYRoM as a Nation does Not have the same rights befitting an Individual.

Human rights and the rights of modern people to self express (Nationally) as they wish, is no longer considered viable or appropriate, in the face of strong academic arguments in favour of the rights of existing indigenous peoples, which already use that Macedonia(n) name in the regional geographic context.

The People of FYRoM declaring themselves Nationally as Macedonians, is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have been residing in that same region and they have been using that same Name since time immemorial...Modern Greeks can Prove it!

FYRoM's Nationality, Language and Ethnicity shall have to find a Suitable Name....One that will properly describe and Identify it's people and their history in today's modern and complicated world.

Macedonia(n).....when this Name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia (The World Body of Knowledge).
Greeks can Prove that Macedonians have always been Greeks, from the dawn of time untill the present.
The Greek Nation can Not Allow a NoN Greek People to Adopt or Usurp Greek Hellenic Names, Symbols, History and Heritage!

Show me a Serious Minded Modern Politician, who will put at Risk his / her's Political Credibility and Integrity, Arguing against the teachings of World Academia over the use of a Greek Hellenic Name, by a NoN Greek People fantasizing about their biological closeness to Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.

Macedonia(n) by Deception is NOT Macedonia(n) at all!
Macedonia Void of it's Hellenic Elements is NOT Macedonia at all!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 902591
United States
04/01/2010 04:21 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Didn't Alexander have something growing out of his head?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 04:21 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
nice little map: note the elevated concentration of haplogroup R1a1 corresponding almost perfectly to the borders of ancient Macedonia:

[link to upload.wikimedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 04:23 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
nice little map: note the elevated concentration of haplogroup R1a1 corresponding almost perfectly to the borders of ancient Macedonia:

[link to upload.wikimedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 221865




In Southern Europe R1a1a is not normally common but it is widespread. Significant levels have been found in pockets, such as in the Pas Valley in Northern Spain, areas of Venice, and Calabria in Italy.[24] The Balkans shows lower frequencies, and significant variation between areas, for example >30% in Slovenia, Croatia and Greek Macedonia, but <10% in Albania, Kosovo and parts of Greece.[15][25][26]
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:23 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
It is a recorded fact....Propaganda has been used in order to pervert distort and corrupt established recorded mainstream European ancient history. Everything that was ever written about Macedonia, both old and new....and deemed relevant to the ongoing name dispute issue, has been collated and filed for posterity and for obvious legal reasons.

Propanda must not be rewarded, it must be exposed confronted then corrected, all of those found perpertrating propaganda, whether internal or external should be bought to justice. The coming together of a significant number of international scholar's, forming a loose academic grouping, a politicized unit ready and willing to speak with one voice, in order to challenge flawed political considerations should they ever be given credence above and beyond those of established academic reference points. Academia versus ill thought out political consideration!

[link to macedonia-evidence.org]
Academic Clout over Political Expediency. Global policians are aware of the Power of Academia [The World Body of Knowledge].

Todays Greeks are the modern Representatives of the Hellenic legacy.....Spanning Ancient Hellenes, Greek Romioi, Greek Byzantines. The Greek claim is legitimized by the last speech of the Eastern Roman Emperor Constantine XI Paleologos here: [link to rumkatkilise.org]

The last Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, martyred by the forces of Sultan Mehmet during the assault on The City on May 29, 1453. Blessed Constantine, whose feast is celebrated on May 29. The last Emperor of Byzantium addressed Greeks (Hellenes) Venetians and Genoese (Greeks and Latins) Orthodox Christians and Catholics united in the face of Adversity and impending doom, Christians of both persuasions standing shoulder to shoulder in holy union in order to fend off the advances of the barbarian Turk.

Modern Greeks take seriously their moral and legal obligations towards Hellenism, it is for this reason Greeks jealously guard their history and heritage from any perverse and corrupt distortions which may enter and contaminate established mainstream history as we know it. The Hellenic Republic reserves the right to defend and protect it's historic rights, using all the necessary political and academic tools at it's disposal. Today's Greeks are determined to keep Macedonia Greek.

Macedonia.....it's history and it's heritage is impregnated, scratched into the Greek Hellenic Collective Consciousness and psyche. Modern Greeks will not share it with NoN Greeks. Todays' Greeks can Not allow a NoN Greek people to adopt or usurp the Macedonian Name for Language use, Ethnicity use, or Nationality use.

Macedonia(n)....when this name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia (The World Body of Knowledge).
Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people, since the dawn of time untill the present.

Most learned people support the Greek position on the Name dispute issue. Most learned people do not understand the Reasons or the Motives, why a NoN Greek people would even want to consider the use of a Greek Hellenic Name to self declare with in order to Identify themselves.

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......Today's Greeks can Prove This at any Legal Setting.

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!

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