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Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 34019963
Poland
02/10/2013 08:38 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
I know for a fact he was gay
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31889572


So are you ;

Wannabe Brave,not so great,Dutch van Duck cruise
Nick the Greek
User ID: 33501191
United Kingdom
02/10/2013 09:22 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Before a nation becomes sovereign and independent, it's leaders should first check to see if the name they propose to use for self-determination is going to clash or conflict with neighbours peoples-name and place-names...this course of action would be viewed the most civilized thing to do. In FYRoM's case, the political leadership there took a different course of action, a confrontationist approach towards independence.

FYRoM knew full well and in advance, the reaction of it's neighbours to proclaiming their new Slavic statelet "The Republic of Macedonia," and still went ahead with that ill-judged, ill thought-out decision.

To think that they could get away with having themselves recognized as a NoN-Greek Macedonian country, a Macedonian Nation State peopled by South-Slavs, was only ever in the minds of some Capitalist-Slavists from the diaspora who formed close ties and relationships with some high powered Western political groupings with inteterests in energy supply routes being planned for the Balkans. It must be streesed, FYRoM's recognition as RoM back in 2004 was taken under this backdrop.

With Yugoslavia almost fully disintegrated, split and fragmented into 7 pieces, 6 of them Slavic-States, one of them not...the same fate awaited Greece. Tearing Macedonia away from Greece then joining it to the new RoM would have minimized Greek borders to Thessaly, with Eastern-Thrace becoming completely detached from Hellas proper - Picture the Map, the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula becomes the most divided, the most fractious and fragmented part of Europe, a mosaic of small, useless and unimportant statelets, some them protectorates, some of them not.

The vision above becomes the mother of all nightmares for the Christian-Orthodox countries of the Greek [Haemus] peninsula...with Turkey in-line to become the only beneficiary of such a nightmarish outcome. In this scenario and in the absence of stability in the Haemus - Ottoman Revivalists had visions to bring Turkey back into the Balkans, as the regions policing and stabilizing factor, a partner the West could do business with.

What a nightmare scenario eh! Greece survives all attempts at bringing it down to insignificant level and secures it's place and future in the Euro-Atlantic economic and security area. That Greece is to become an important player in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula is all but assured in the way the Greeks navigated their way out of the chaos and turmoil thrown and placed in front of them.
Nick the Greek
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02/10/2013 02:17 PM
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From since it was initially founded back in ancient times, Macedonian borders were neither stable nor fixed, they were always in flux, changing. The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon differed both in size and shape from the Roman administered Macedonia, and Medieval Macedonia differed from the Byzantine Theme-Macedonia which moved to Thrace. Ottoman Vilayet-Macedonia changed again until in 1913, the Greeks ejected the Turks from the region and returned Macedonia back to Greek hands. The geography of Greek Macedonia today resembles that of the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon during the rule of King Phillip II, it mirrors the descriptions of Strabo the ancient-geographer when he wrote his Book VII Fragments.

[link to penelope.uchicago.edu] If I have proven anything at all, it is this - it's not about the geography but about the name. The name went wherever the Greeks took it.

When the Byzantine-Greeks moved Macedonia to Thrace, they didn't move the turf of the original ancient-Kingdom there - they moved the name there instead...a decision proven to be light-years ahead of it's time because they showed us a fine example of proof of ownership! You know when a name is yours when you take it with you wherever you go. The New World in the Americas is full of people-names and place-names that were transplanted there from the Old-World.
Nobody confuses French-Names with Dutch-Names or mistakes Spanish-Names for German-Names or mixes English-Names with Portuguese-Names.

The Macedonian-name originated under Hellenic skies from Greek speaking peoples using a Centum Indo-European, Hellenic-language - No mistake, No confusion...just fact!
Nick the Greek
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02/11/2013 03:01 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The peoples of FYRoM have been Slavic for 1,400 years and Macedonian for just 68 of them, from since 1945 - What does this tell You!

The peoples of FYRoM have been speaking Bulgarian for 1,400 years and Macedonian for just 69 of them, from since 1944 - What does this tell You!

The Draguvites tribe and the Berzites tribe are FYRoM's closest Slavic relatives their ancestral-forebears, but they hardly get a mention in the history and heritage of this young, recently established Balkan country. From since the top-end of the 6th Century AD until now, many years have passed...for 1,332 of those years, the peoples of FYRoM were perfectly happy to affiliate with the Bulgarian ethnos. For 1,331 of those years, they spoke Bulgarian and unashamedly self-Identified the same. There is no mistake, no confusion and no doubt, the peoples of FYRoM are Slavic in all the ways that matter!

When FYRoM's Slavic ancestors first settled the Greco-Roman world, they did not come in as Macedonians...we know, they came in as Draguvites and Berzites along with the Sagudates and the Velegizites, the Zagorites and the Ezerites, and many more besides.

It took a long time for the Slavic tribes to form nations in their own right - the first such entity to do so was Bulgaria. In all their dealings with Slavs, the Medievil Byzantine Emperors always refered to them as Vulgari meaning Bulgarians.

The peoples of Macedonia have been Greek for >3 Milleniums
and Hellenic for the same - What does this tell You!

It tells me, Macedonians have always been Greek...Greeks from the get-go, and they are still here today the same - What does that tell You!

Who got bottle to stand next to a Greek in order to tell him - FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs have absolute right to name themselves Macedonian in the ethnic-racial sense, and in the cultural-linguistic sense, even though those Identity factors do not bode well with Slavs. Who got the front to stand next to a Greek to tell him - FYRoM has inalienable rights to name their country Macedonia and their nationality
ethnicity and language Macedonian, when it is known, there is Nothing Macedonian about them.

European Names are important to Europeans - more important to the native and indigenous people-groups that originated the name in the first place - What does this tell You!
Nick the Greek
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02/12/2013 02:35 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM the country is Paeonia and Dardania whilst Macedonia, the ancient one, is Hellenic - This is a problem for them because FYRoM's so called Macedonians are Slavic whilst the ancient ones were Hellenic...this is a problem for them as well, because Hellenic-Macedonians are still around today, they can be found living in Macedon, the ancient-Kingdom situated in Northern-Greece. The name they covet for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes is the regiona-tribal name of a neighbouring peoples. Northern-Greeks have self-Identified and self-determined as Macedonians for more than 3 Milleniums whilst FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs from since 1945.

If it Walks like a Slav and Talks like a Slav, then it is, Slavic...how else should we describe them. FYRoM the country
is a synthesis of all the peoples that surround it. The milieu there, at various stages during the past adopted the Slavic way, the language, the culture and tradition - next to the Slavs proper, who just continued to be Slavs.

In the Balkans, we are all mixed...some more than others. So
this statement is true: The Macedonian-name belongs in the Greek domain whilst the Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Those who continue the Greek way have principle entitlement to the name and Identity. Those who continue to follow the Greek way are morally and ethically obliged to keep the name and the Identity Greek. Only those who Walk like Greeks and Talk like Greeks have principle claim to the Macedonian name and Identity.

If in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula we are all derived from the same stuff...a common gene-pool, then we owe it to the Greeks of old - the Macedonians of lore, to keep their name and their Identity Hellenic. Greeks try to do that - Slavs try to ruin that!

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs Walk like Slavs and Talk like Slavs when the Macedonians they want to be, always Walked like Greeks and Talked like Greeks - this is a problem for them!
Nick the Greek
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02/13/2013 04:20 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
On the basis of their Slavic heritage, FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs automatically exclude themselves from the historical legacy of Macedon. The Kingdom of Macedon was an ancient-Greek Kingdom...only Greeks have principle claim to the historical legacy.

The antiquisation efforts undertaken by the Makedonists in FYRoM, to place them on an equilibrium with Greece over the cultural and hereditary rights to the ancient-Macedonian legacy, has proven to be a bit of an embarrassment for them the country the peoples there, and Slavdom - who's name they used in vain, when they proclaimed Alexander the Great - Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

The general consensus amongst analysts and observers of the long running name dispute issue, is that many International political-representatives, historian-scholars, political-scientists and political-journalists have shown themselves to be more sympathetic towards the Greek positions...when before antiquisation, they supported FYRoM's right to use the Macedonian name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes.

Things changed when the FYRoM government erected and put on display gigantic statues of Alexander the Great and his father King Phillip at the center of Skopje...sympathy and support for their cause faded and diminished at a stroke. Both of those characters were important powerful figures for Greeks and Hellenism. Their actions had numerous direct and indirect consequences for Greek culture language and traditions, in all of the eras and epochs during the rise of King Phillip until the death of his son Alexander the Great. There is a cultural-linguistic dimension which bonds all Greeks with their legacy - and FYRoM Rubbished that.

There is no valid reason for the Slavs of FYRoM to Idolize King Philip and Alexander the Great the way they do in Skopje, the reason they do it is to antagonize the Greeks, to watch Greeks squirm at their antics...the thrill they derive from watching Greeks get uptight is worth it for them because they know - only Greeks have legitimate claims to the historical legacy of ancient-Macedon.

FYRoM stands alone in the world...shoved-up a siidng, kept at a distance, at arms length, because what they have done to Hellenism has repulsed the EU, UN, USA, NATO and the International academic community - these bodies do not give FYRoM a second look anymore.
Nick the Greek
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02/14/2013 04:36 PM
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Since the Peoples Republic of Macedonia was the creation of the Communists, the regime in power during WWII wartime Yugoslavia, the Serbian Orthodox Church refused to recognized the MOC on the basis, the Church of FYRoM remains the only Orthodox Church ever, to have been be set-up by atheist Communists - to this day, it remains unrecognized in Orthodox Christendom.

Now the Bulgarians - on the one hand, Bulgaria recognized FYRoM as the Republic of Macedonia, but on the other hand, they do not see the peoples there being different to them, they see the peoples of FYRoM as Western-Bulgarians.

Now the Greeks - Greece never recognized FYRoM as Macedonia in the first place, from the very beginning, on the basis, Greeks see them as Bulgarians.

Now the Albanians - the fourth neighbor of FYRoM, they recognized FYRoM as Macedonia but see the peoples there as Bulgarians.

Each of FYRoM's neighbours see them as South-Slavs from ethnic-Bulgarian stock, so if their parent-ethnicity is Bulgarian, how can they be ethnic-Macedonians as well!

Ethnicity and it's application in todays modern and complicated world is a very difficult subject to discuss, suffice to say, if the measure of ethnicity was calculated in feelings...then the ancient-Macedonians were fanatic Greeks - wherever they went, they left us their calling-card carved deep into the stones of every city they visited, built or renamed proclaiming their Greekness, as if they knew, that sometime way-off into the future, some Southern Slavs from ethnic-Bulgarian stock would make an attempt, a preemptive strike at taking the Macedonian-name away from it's Hellenic ancestral base.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs are not the Macedonians they think they are, told they are, or want to be...on the basis, everybody lnows them as South-Slavs from ethnic-Bulgarian stock.
Nick the Greek
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02/15/2013 12:04 PM
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There are a many impediments which restrict the peoples of FYRoM claiming direct or partial descent from the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, (i) geography, (ii) language, (iii) culture and traditions. On geography, the Vardar region of extended [Roman] Macedonia, on which FYRoM sits, in no way correlates with the geography of ancient-Kingdom. On language, the language spoken in FYRoM is more similar to Bulgarian than it is to the Hellenic Centum language thae was spoken by Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity. On culture and traditions, well, they are Slavic whilst the culture and traditions of ancient-Macedonians were Hellenic. However, there are very few impediments and restrictions to equate FYRoM with Paeonia and Dardania - these lands were home to the ancient-peoples of the same name. The indigenous native inhabitants of FYRoM constituted Paeonians in the main. FYRoM's ancient history in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula correlates more with Paeonians and Dardanians than it does with ancient-Macedonians, who's name they covet.

[link to www.historyfiles.co.uk] The Greek connection to the ancient-Macedonians transend (i) geography, (ii) language, (iii) culture and traditions. There has been a continuous Greek presence in the historic region of ancient-Macedon from since the days of King Karanus.

[link to www.historyfiles.co.uk] Dardanians were the ancient-peoples of FYRoM.

[link to www.wildwinds.com] Paeonians were the ancient-peoples of FYRoM.

[link to www.historyfiles.co.uk] Macedonians were the ancient-peoples of Greece.

Why do the Slavs of FYRoM covet a name and Identity that is intrinsic to the Greeks and Hellenism, when they connect more to the Paeonian name and Identity and the Dardanian name and Identity...these are more fitting to them than the Macedonian name.
Nick the Greek
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02/15/2013 02:39 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
At all of these levels, geographically, linguistically, historically and culturally - todays Greeks can boast to be the closest related modern-peoples to the ancient ones. The connections transcend biological fraternal ties which bind them to their ancestors. They are as closely related to the ancient-Macedonians as they are to the ancient-Athenians, ancient-Spartans, Corinthians, Thessalians, Ionians and the whole list of Hellenic tribes that constituted the ancient-Hellenic world from antiquity. The path of least resistance flows through the modern Greeks - no other peoples in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula can boast what the Greeks boast.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs embarrass themselves when they tell the world they are more Macedonian than the Greeks...they embarrass Slavdom also, and insult the Greeks and Hellenism in the process.

The Macedonian-name is older than FYRoM's Slavic ancestors arrival to the region. Slavs were newcomers to Macedonia, arriving there at the top-end of the 6th Century AD, almost a millennium after the death of Alexander the Great. Any newcomer that settles an already inhabited region has no relatedness to the pre-existing population there. FYRoM's Slavic ancestors cross-fertilizing [[by force][free will]] with the local population there would still only make them partially-Greek, with partial-Greek rights to their legacy history and heritage.

Slavdom should pull FYRoM to one side and explain to them with whom they are dealing - Hellenism has endured in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula for more than 3 Millenniums. Greek-Hellenic culture has endured Persian excruciations, Celtic invasions, Roman occupation, Hunnic barbarity, Ostro-Gothic treachery, Slavic settlement, Pope inspired crusades, Catholic betrayal and Turkish domination spanning a time continuum of more than 1000 years...Greeks survived to tell the tale. Greeks preserved Hellenism, the Hellenic language and culture into the modern era.

If the Slavs of FYRoM think they can take something from Hellenism, something which never belonged to them in the first place, then truly, they do not know with whom they are dealing.

Greeks reserve the right to defend and protect what is theirs by birthright. Greeks shall defend Hellenism in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks shall protect Hellenism, a culture and a way of life that has endured for more than 3 Millenniums.

Long live Hellas, long live the Greek-Hellenic peoples.
Nick the Greek
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02/16/2013 07:48 AM
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New upcoming emerging country's do have the sovereign right to call themselves by whatever name they like, but common-sense dictates that it must be done within a framework which
does not deprive others from their self-determination rights.

In the FYRoM case, the Slavs there want to use the Macedonian name for self-Identity and for self-determination
purposes when it is known that Macedonians already exist as a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock.

It must be stressed: Macedonians have existed in exactly the same place, as self-determined Greeks for more than 3 millenniums, from since the days of King Karanus 808-778 BC, whilst the Slavs of FYRoM, from since 1945.

Macedonia is Hellenic like Bavaria is Germanic, like Jerusalem is Israel, like Texas is American, like the Dordogne is France, like Tazmania is Australia...like FYRoM is Slavic - should I continue ?
Nick the Greek
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02/16/2013 10:58 AM
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A Macedonian nation outside of Hellenism has never existed in historical verity, to create one now would be considered anethema, Greeks would simply not permit it, they would view such a venture as an abomination, an anti-Hellenic action, a travesty of the recorded history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

To create a Macedonian nation state now, and then people it with NoN-Greeks, with rights to the historical legacy of the ancient-Macedonians would be a cause for the Greeks to take-up arms.

FYRoM does not have the right to wantonly usurp another peoples regional-tribal name...whilst it does have the right of self-determination, it cannot pick a name that is already in use and known to belong to another peoples, a native indigenous, racially different peoples with land and ancestry ties to the region.

Macedonians have been self-determined Greeks for more than 3 Milleniums whilst the Slavs of FYRoM became Macedonians under dubious circumstances in 1945.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have been Slavic from since the 6th Century AD...for 1,400 years. Their parent-ethnicity has been Slavic for 1, 332 years until it was changed for them in 1945. For 68 years, they have used the Macedonian name self-Identify with.

I say again: Macedonians have been self-determined Greeks for more than 3 milleniums. FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs...from since 1945, and under the strict coercive influences of the Communist-Slavist elite ruling WWII wartime Yugoslavia.
a
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02/16/2013 11:34 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
A Macedonian nation outside of Hellenism has never existed in historical verity, to create one now would be considered anethema, Greeks would simply not permit it, they would view such a venture as an abomination, an anti-Hellenic action, a travesty of the recorded history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

To create a Macedonian nation state now, and then people it with NoN-Greeks, with rights to the historical legacy of the ancient-Macedonians would be a cause for the Greeks to take-up arms.

FYRoM does not have the right to wantonly usurp another peoples regional-tribal name...whilst it does have the right of self-determination, it cannot pick a name that is already in use and known to belong to another peoples, a native indigenous, racially different peoples with land and ancestry ties to the region.

Macedonians have been self-determined Greeks for more than 3 Milleniums whilst the Slavs of FYRoM became Macedonians under dubious circumstances in 1945.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have been Slavic from since the 6th Century AD...for 1,400 years. Their parent-ethnicity has been Slavic for 1, 332 years until it was changed for them in 1945. For 68 years, they have used the Macedonian name self-Identify with.

I say again: Macedonians have been self-determined Greeks for more than 3 milleniums. FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs...from since 1945, and under the strict coercive influences of the Communist-Slavist elite ruling WWII wartime Yugoslavia.
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 33501191



Nick the Greek
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02/17/2013 05:20 AM
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The region where FYRoM is located right now is a place that used to be called Paoenia back in ancient times. To the north of Paeonia lay Dardania. These lands were annexed and incorporated into a much larger extended-Macedonia by the latin-Romans, for administrative purposes - Paeonia and Dardania were never part of the original ancient-Kingdom of Macedon.

FYRoM's attempt to establish itself as a new Slavic country called Macedonia, clashes and conflicts with the geography and with the demographic history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

If FYRoM was ever to be permitted to appropriate and assume total usurpation of the Macedonian name for their new country, nationality, language and ethnicity on an exclusive basis...the Greeks would automatically lose in an instant and at a stroke, something primordially Hellenic - a good causal reason for the Greeks to take-up arms, to fetch back to Hellenism something that was given without their consent or permission.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and those who attempt to establish it as such have the Greeks to contend with.

Long Live Hellas - My Country, My Nation, My Family, My Honour, My Pride...Make Me Proud!
Nick the Greek
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02/17/2013 07:28 AM
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From a regional-geographic perspective, one can fully understand why a South-Slav from FYRoM would want to be known as a Macedonian...however, it is a bit of a stretch for them to project that Identity back to classical-antiquity.

Slavic peoples leap-frogging themselves back to a historical time period their ancestors were wholly absent from smacks of egoism, pseudo-historical egoistic revisionism. FYRoM's anti-Hellenic propaganda in this regard is viewed by the international diplomatic community as being something rather loathsome, something objectionable and something quite distasteful.

FYRoM's desire to monopolize the name flies in the face of what is actually known about Macedonia - that Macedon was an ancient-Greek Kingdom, and that Macedonians are a regional historical people-group of ethnic Greek stock.

Evidently there is a bit of a clash, with what has been recorded in the mainstream historical narrative and a bit of a conflict, regarding FYRoM's Slavic parent-ethnicity.

To ask from the learned peoples of this world - the international academic community and the international diplomatic community to accept FYRoM as a Macedonian Nation and the [ex-Yugo] Slavs there, as the legitimate heirs and inheritors of the ancient-Macedonian legacy is asking for the impossible.
Nick the Greek
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02/17/2013 10:04 AM
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Those who know Macedonia know Hellenism has endured in Macedonia and the Haemus [Greek] peninsula for more than 3 Millenniums.

Greek-Hellenic culture has endured...

1 - Persian excruciations
2 - Celtic invasions
3 - Roman occupation
4 - Hunnic barbarity
5 - Ostro-Gothic treachery
6 - Slavic settlement
7 - Pope inspired crusades
8 - Catholic betrayal
9 - Turkish domination

...covering a time continuum spanning many thousands of years.

Greeks survived to tell the tale...Greeks preserved Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic language and culture into the modern era.

Who got the front, the gall or the bottle to Rubbish This:

The Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans or the Hermans Jurgens and Gunthers!
Nick the Greek
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02/17/2013 11:02 AM
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FYRoM's one-time Western backers sponsors and supporters were the same ones who employed some Runt(s) to script these
words.

The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.

Whoever scripted these words about Greeks was absolutely right...

...the Greeks are the most anarchic and the most difficult peoples to tame - the last amongst the European Millieu of Peoples to take freedom seriously.

To the Runt(s) who put these words together I say This: Molon Lave!
MKD
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02/17/2013 11:07 AM
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Nick, you are a piece of jewelery. Remember this: Anti-propaganda is the best form of propaganda.
Keep doing your job in promoting the greek insecurity about Macedonia. For that effort, I congratulate you!
a
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02/17/2013 07:16 PM
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Nick, you are a piece of jewelery. Remember this: Anti-propaganda is the best form of propaganda.
Keep doing your job in promoting the greek insecurity about Macedonia. For that effort, I congratulate you!
 Quoting: MKD 34608602


cool2
Anonymous Coward
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02/17/2013 07:18 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Nick, you are a piece of jewelery. Remember this: Anti-propaganda is the best form of propaganda.
Keep doing your job in promoting the greek insecurity about Macedonia. For that effort, I congratulate you!
 Quoting: MKD 34608602


applause2
Nick the Greek
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02/18/2013 03:58 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Why do the modern-peoples of ancient-Paeonia try to pass themselves off as Macedonians and their land as Macedonia ?

Here we are talking about FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs. They attempt crudely, to usurp the Macedonian-name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes even though it is known, that they are neither Macedonians nor their land Macedonia.

The lands North of Mount-Barmous and Mount-Orbelos is where ancient-Paeonia lay, where the ancient-Paeonians lived...to their South they faced the Greeks from Macedonia, and to their North they faced the Illyrians from Dardania, where Kosovo is situated today.

Paeonia was a country that was peopled by NoN-Greeks. King Phillip II of Macedon, Alexander the Greats father took control of Paeonia in 359 BC and Hellenized the area over the course of time.

Paeonians were probably an intermediate peoples somewhere between Thracian and Illyrian, who along with the Hellenes formed the 3 autochthonous root-races that were native and indigenous to the Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

Thracians Illyrians and Hellenes...their sub-groups, sub-sets and derivatives peopled the Haemus peninsula during antiquity and probably from primordial inception - Paeonia is the place where they blend
amalgamate and coalesce.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs speak Slavic now, but they may have spoken Paeonian before Hellenization. Their ancestral forebears from since 359 BC, learned to walk like Greeks and talk like Greeks courtesy of King Phillip of Macedon until the coming of the Slavic tribes to the Haemus, when they had no option but to Slavicize under the sheer weight and numbers of the newcomers.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs do have a past in the Haemus...not as Macedonians, but as Paeonians. The genes they carry with admixture prove native to the Haemus - they speak Slavic but look Mediterenean, not that dissimilar from their immediate neighbours.

Thracians Illyrians and Hellenes - in any combination, formed the ancient-peoples of the Haemus...elements from them and remnants of them can be found in todays modern-peoples, the ones that live their now.

If it is true, that all of us stem from the same common Haemus gene-pool, then we owe it to the ancient-Greeks who brought us together under their cultural-linguistic space and influence.

Paeonians were neither Greek nor Slavic - they just learned to walk that way and talk that way...like the peoples of FYRoM do today.
Nick the Greek
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02/19/2013 05:01 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Nation building aka FYRoM style is probably the crudest most shabbiest example ever undertaken by a peoples wanting one, since the concept of nation-state became the entities of choice for the replacement of expired, defunct Empires.

FYRoM's attempts at acquiring a brand-name can be likened to a comedy of errors, where the central theme of mistaken-Identity is seen to lead to somewhat comical but catastrophic consequences. It's funny watching FYRoM construct the building blocks of nation with the artifacts of mistaken Identities...funny but catastrophic in the long run.

FYRoM's attempts at acquiring a history for their new Slavic-country is likened in the same manner - a comedy of errors!

Sure, the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is petty, until that is, it is your name that is being used without your consent, and in ways which undermine your fraternal links to it, your historic-rights also. A dispute over a name may seem petty, trivial, ridiculous and unimportant, but only to the Ignorant, because only Ignorance gives way to expediancy. FYRoM attempts to usurp the Macedonian-name in order to apply it to Slavic-speaking peoples who's Serbo-Bulgarian ancestors did not know this name when they first settled the Greco-Roman world at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D.

Nation building aka FYRoM style - shall go down in history as the worst, most crudest anti-Hellenic action ever undertaken by a Slavic country against Greece...it shall go down in history as the worst case example, building a Nation from a disparate-mosaic of differing ethnic-groups.
Nick the Greek
User ID: 33501191
United Kingdom
02/20/2013 02:36 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM's Theme-Park approach to advancing National-Identity at the internal domestic level, brought out some home grown critics of the venture, but it was at the regional level where it had the most effect.

The conversion of Skopje into a Balkan style Disneyland Wonderland had mixed reactions across the region, with Greece being the most vocal and the most disapproving. At the International level, FYRoM's efforts in the
construction and display of some gigantic statues of ancient-Greek hero's were viewed with some dismay and discomfort. International support for FYRoM faded in an instant, it diminished quite significantly.

At the domestic-level, regional-level and International-level...FYRoM's attempts at projecting and marketing their National-Identity by the construction of giant plinths to house potent and powerful figures associated with another-peoples, namely ancient-Greeks and Medievil-Bulgarians, were criticized at all of them.

FYRoM's mix and match approach to marketing their much covetted Macedonian National-Identity, on the basis of that modern Skopje Theme-Park model...projects them, as a somewhat intermediate-peoples, a cross somewhere between ancient-Greek and Medievil-Bulgarian, which is not that far removed from the biological and demographic reality.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs maybe the resulting amalgam of some interaction [[by force][by free will]] between Greco-Romans wanting to protect their Byzantine Empire from the invader, and the Slavo-Bulgarians wanting to settle it. That scenario of events may have produced an intermediate population there, where FYRoM is situated right now - a cross somewhere between Greek and Slav, with consciousness and collective-memories to both ethno-linguistic cultures.

One thing we know for sure though, actually it's two things:
(i) The Macedonian-Name belongs in the Greek domain and (ii) Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage...these are the two main principle anchors, two principle academic reference points that cannot be undone, on the basis, there is abundance of accumulated material evidence scattered internationally which tie the Macedonian name to Greeks and Hellenism.

FYRoM's partial-Greek and partial-Bulgarian connections have their limitations!
Nick the Greek
User ID: 34931361
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02/22/2013 12:48 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
I would say that most peoples in most nations really do care about maintaining tradition. I would say, most peoples in most countrys really do care about matters pertaining to cultural-inheritance, historic-rights and cultural-heritage.

I would say that most peoples in the world today, really do value their ages-old ways and traditions...unique-customs, belief-systems and behavioural patterns developed in the past but passed-on, generation to generation from their immediate ancestral maternal-paternal forebears.

I would say, maintaining tradition is important for national-pride and social-cohesion, when in the face of strong political pressures to dismantle them for multiculturalism, the host-culture gets trampled-on in the name of modernism cloaked under globalism.

Under immense pressures, the Greeks try to maintain as much of the old ways as possible, jealously guarding their national-history and heritage...a cultural-inheritance passed-on from their immediate ancestral forebears. Greeks are not the only ones that overtly defend and protect their ways, culture and traditions: Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Hindus, Persians, Chinese and Japanese do it too.

Like the Greeks...Armenians, Jews, Hindus, Persians, Chinese and Japanese could be cited as examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, certain key identifying components - name, language, customs, religious community and territorial association - were broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia. Source: Anthony D. Smith British Professor Emeritus of Nationalism and Ethnicity LSE, Nationalism and Modernism, 2003, Cambridge University Press.

There has been a Hellenic presence in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula from since the primordial beginning. Greek culture and traditions have been passed-on from generation to generation for milleniums.

FYRoM's attempts at taking from the Greeks, elements from their cultural-heritage in order to pass those elements off as their own, riles the Greeks - as it would rile any peoples, any country, any nation that jealously guards their national-history and cultural-heritage.

Most peoples in most nations see the Greek positions holding the moral ethical and academic higher ground. FYRoM is seen internationally as the usurper of Greek history - something which has done them much harm.
Nick the Greek
User ID: 34931361
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02/23/2013 06:26 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
If one considers the Greek civil war 1946-1949 was fought over the question, the geographic-region of Macedonia would fall to the Soviet block in the Communist east, federated into Yugoslavia...the Greeks could be forgiven for having concerns that today, FYRoM might, in the future, lay claim to the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon which is part of Greece and constitutes a large part of Northern-Greece. The Greeks did not have to waite very long before those concerns manifested themselves. Flags and Maps of Greek-Macedonian territory were displayed incorporated into the national boundaries of FYRoM under the heading OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

It should be noted here, that FYRoM by itself is no threat to Greece but becomes one, when the Slavs united in Ideology agitate for more territory. After the devastations of WWII, Greece entered straight into another War - an Ideological War termed the Greek Civil War. More Greeks died in this War than in the previous one. Greeks witnessed Slavs from neighbouring country's penetrate Greece, surreptitiously to aide the Greek Communists tear
Macedonia away from Greece and place it into the Slavic camp. United Communist Ideology Greeks proper, and Greek citizens from Slavic-heritage plotted together to fight against the legitimate Royalist government of Greece and lost!

This is the backdrop scenario under which the FYRoM - Greece name dispute should be considered. The Slavs of FYRoM have reason and motive to despise Greeks...a large number of them had to flee after the Civil War or face criminal proceedings, charges of treason and crimes against the state. They have deep issues with Greece for not allowing them, Greek-citizens from Slavic-heritage to return back to their homes in Greece. The peoples of FYRoM are bitter with Greeks, Greece and Hellenism, they have reason to be, some are the progeny of disloyal Greek citizens who fought for a foreign power against Greece, their own country of birth. Greeks could never trust them ever again.

Communists ruined Greece - Greeks-proper and Greek-citizens from Slavic-heritage were willing to see Greece break apart for Communist heaven...where the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon would be incorated into a Communist Slav-Macedonian State, legitimized by a token Greek presence there to fascilitate the scripting of a history and a heritage connecting Macedonians to both Greeks and Slavs. The whole proto-Slavic Macedonian psuedo-historical narrative was scripted to Trash Greeks and Rubbish their history.
Nick the Greek
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02/23/2013 08:35 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Along with the Armenians, Jews, Persians, Hindus, Chinese and Japanese - Greeks share more in common with their ancestral forbears than say, the vast majority of modern people-groups do with their avowed ancestors. Take FYRoM for instance - the peoples there are undoubtedly Slavic, akin to Serbians and Bulgarians...socially-engineered and ethnically-manipulated to call themselves Macedonians, but Macedonians that have nothing in common with their ancient name-sakes.

The ancient-Macedonians were a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples, the modern-ones the same...yet the peoples of FYRoM have been brainwashed to self-Identify and self-determine as Macedonians in the ethnic-racial sense and cultural-linguistic sense, when it is known, those Identity factors do not match with the ancient ones. On language, on geography, on race, on ethnicity, on culture - FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs have nothing in common with the ancient-ones.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs have been brainwashed by the state,
Indoctrinated on Makedonism, an outdated Slavist based expansionist Ideology which teaches young Slavic children there to see themselves as Macedonians and to see ancient-Macedonians as Slavs.

FYRoM's so called Macedonian-Identity is an Indulgence, it
rests on the twin alters of deception and revisionism, the foodstuffs which nourish and sustain their existence - without them, the FYRoM cause withers and dies into obscurity.

It is a deception to name FYRoM to Macedonia...when the geography there is Paeonia to the learned scholarly academic
world.

It is a deception to name a Serbianized Bulgarian language to Macedonian-language...when it is Serbo-Bulgarian to the learned scholarly academic world.

It is an Indulgence to name a South-Slavic peoples ethnic-Macedonians...when it is known they are Slavic and foreign to Macedonia.

Residing in Paeonia for 1,400 years, from since the 6th Century AD, does empower any Slavic peoples to name themselves Macedonians in the ethnic and racial sense.

Macedonians have been Greek-speaking Hellenic-poeples from since the primordial beginning - we No share our regional-tribal names with Greek-hating peoples.
Nick the Greek
User ID: 34931361
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02/23/2013 10:32 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Greeks are Macedonian by geography and by heritage, by language and by culture - Hellenic one and all...FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs cannot boast these connections and expect to be taken seriously. On geography they are Paeonians, on heritage they are Slavic, on language they are Serbo-Bulgarians and on culture, they share the same one with the rest of the South-Slavs. They became Macedonians in 1945 on the sheer will of those Communist-Slavists who demanded it.
Initiated during the last years of WWII by Soviet era expansionist policies, Makedonism continues to this day, perpetuated in FYRoM by the hapless, simple-minded, poorly educated, largely indoctrinated descendants of raw Communists, who had eyes for Greek coastal waters that would give them access to the Aegean Sea. To this day, the mindset in FYRoM is that of, Macedonia is Slavic land and the Greeks only set-foot there in 1913. They believe Macedonians were proto-Slavic peoples, they also believe that their Serbo-Bulgarian language is the same one spoken in antiquity by Alexander the Great. Macedonians for them have always been Macedonians and never Greeks.

These peoples are dangerous...not to Greeks but to their own children pupils and students who walk the streets thinking Greeks stole their land, their history and their heritage. For them, Greeks are the enemy!
Nick the Greek
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02/23/2013 02:37 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Five major conflicts were fought in the greater-Macedonian region from the turn of the past century. On each occasion the Slavic peoples there tried to take Greek territory by standing on the shoulders of stronger Allies: First with Bulgarians, then with the Central Powers, consisting of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians and Bulgarians [link to en.wikipedia.org] then with the Axis Powers, consisting of Germans, Italians and Japanese,
[link to en.wikipedia.org] and then finally with Tito's Yugoslavia, consisting of federated South-Slavs.
The United States and the free democratic European powers always stood by Greece in these conflicts. So it came as a huge blow to Greeks when in November 2004, the GW Bush administration recognized FYRoM as RoM, breaking with the tradition of supporting Greece and making American foreign policy appear double-sided and vulnerable to criticism, opening up questions over the integrity and credibility of that decision. Later, it was put down to poor, substandard ill thought-out advice but the damage had already been done.

To recognize a Slavic country like FYRoM as a Nation of Macedonians, when it is known, Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples was a major blow for Greeks,
but what has it achieved in the long run - other than to bolster the ego of the Slavs there to go for the Cherry and claim the Illustrious history and heritage of Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...now look at the Mess we are in!
Nick the Greek
User ID: 34931361
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02/24/2013 05:52 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Greeces Western-partners and European-cousins backed FYRoM for one thing and one thing only - to integrate the young fledgling country into the Western-worlds most prestigeous economic and security structures of the EU and NATO...the Idea would have fascilitated stability in the Balkans and paved the way for the planning of future energy-routes that were being mapped to criss-cross the peninsula from sources originating in Central-Asia. The Greeks in their wisdom, allied themselves to Russian energy-routes which aided the FYRoM cause further, in the eyes of the West. From the Western-perspective, Russian dominance in the energy sector
would have placed Western-Interests in the region at a disadvantage.

FYRoM's Western-backers, sponsors and supporters were willing to see Greece suffer the consequences straying away from the Western [NATO] Track. Greece had to go through the
Indignation of having to defend it's National-Character from the barrage of insults being aired and sent to print in Western Press and Media circles. The assassination of the Greek National-Character went into full swing - the Greeks went from being Friendly and Welcoming, God-fearing, Church-going, Family-orientated Southern-Europeans to Loathsome-peoples, Lying, Cheating, Lazy Southern-Europeans.

Greeks watched their National-Chracter being assassinated in Western Press-Media circles before their very eyes. On the back of the name-dispute with FYRoM, every Greek-hating Man and his Dog contributed something anti-Hellenic to put the Greeks down.

The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.

Looking back...the attacks on Greeks and Hellenism were carried out in the name of globalism - to get the Greeks to Conform to the plans Western Mind-Architects had in store for the Balkan [Haemus] Peninsula. When things were not going to plan, going too slow and too cumbersome, Greece was attacked in a different way - fiscally. In a concerted effort, the Greek economy became the target of the Prospectors and the Speculators, the now Politicized Banking Fraternity went for the Greek Jugular, they Fleeced the Greek economy to ruination in the name of Conformity.

But look now - that Greece is now wired-in to the new vision for Europe, given the loans it needs to build anew...means Greece has reached a level of conformity deemed suitable for the West to keep the country on-side and on-track. As for the Greek peoples, well, they have always been anarchic and difficultu to tame - the last of the European Millieu of peoples to take freedom seriously.
Nick the Greek
User ID: 34931361
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02/24/2013 07:46 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
This is true for both Greeks and Slavs - Macedonia and Vardarska-Banovina are both regional place-names attributed to administrative-districts. In this context they are quite acceptable, but they are unthinkable as sovereign state-names...Macedonia for the Greeks and Vardska-Banovina for the Slavs. FYRoM finds Vardaska-Banovina undesirable for sovereign state-name whilst Greece finds it disrespectful that a newly established neighbour-country should want to usurp a Greek-Hellenic regional-tribal name for sovereign state-name.

The peoples of FYRoM have absolute inalienable sovereign-right to name themselves the way they want, the way they wish, and the way they see fit, but one could argue that it is an abuse of that right to take the name of another-peoples, a name that is already in use and attributed a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock.

Considering past sensitivities and the historical baggage the two peoples have over the region, the decision to opt for the Macedonian-name appears to be opportunistic. In the Greek view, FYRoM's attempt at usurping the Macedonian-name for country-name, nationality, language and ethnicity is seen as a form of vindictive payback...one upmanship for the perceived wrongs inflicted on them from since the turn of the last Century.

FYRoM went for the Macedonian-name because it had the opportunity to do so - under the cover of the UN charter of human-rights.

To equate Macedonian-Identity with any peoples other than Greeks, is being mischievous, unless specifically stating their affiliation or parent-ethnicity alongside the term Macedonian. Greeks are Macedonian on the basis, they were the original creators of the name...Macedonians for Greeks are part of the Hellenic collective of peoples, their name cannot apply to racially different peoples in the ethnic-sense, or cultural-linguistic sense.

Are the Greeks being unreasonable - I dont think so!

Are the Slavs of FYRoM being Mischevous - I think so!
Wei Wu Wei

User ID: 34151321
Macedonia
02/24/2013 07:48 AM

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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Nick, you are a piece of jewelery. Remember this: Anti-propaganda is the best form of propaganda.
Keep doing your job in promoting the greek insecurity about Macedonia. For that effort, I congratulate you!
 Quoting: MKD 34608602


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