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Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav

 
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:25 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Macedonia(n)...when this name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia (The World Body of Knowledge).
Other's wanting to usurp this name exclusively should at least properly fully explain their reasons and their motives, why a NoN Greek people should be given the rights and entitlements for it's use.

FYRoM has not properly explained to the world, it's reasons and it's motives for wanting to usurp that name [exclusively] for Ethnic use Language use and Nationality use. Global politicians and the International academic fraternity remain unconvinced and Suspicious, they have not been fully persuaded by FYRoM's positions on the matter.

For those people who for one reason or another, find Hellenism Repugnant should at least have the common courtesy to face and accept this fact, that todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of that Hellenic legacy. No other modern people on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes and their legacy, than today's modern Greeks.....today's Greeks will protect and defend this position, both Legally and Morally.

Todays Southernmost Slavs want this name for exclusive use in order to describe their language, ethnicity and nationality, disrespecting world academia and the teachings of recorded established mainstream European ancient history.

Macedonia.....it's ancient history is impregnated, fused, scratched into the modern Greek Hellenic peoples Collective Consciousness like a lazer beam burning a latent image deep into the surface of plexiglass or photoreceptive materials. Macedonia is inextricably attached to Hellenism,
No serious minded scholar would risk doing damage to his or her's academic integrity and credibility arguing against the teachings and intellectual clout of world academia.

After almost two decades.....global politicians have been fully briefed on the backround and the historical use of the Macedonian name. They have become learned on the matter, they are aware of it's Greek Hellenic origins and attributes.

The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country, it's people their ethno origins and their history....and Most importantly a Name for all of it's people to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......The global community can see right through it!

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:27 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Today, circumstances dictate that FYRoM is faced with having to take the political decision of it's life. Name change will result in the end of a long running Name dispute, it will enure that FYRoM will cease to be and in it's place shall emerge a New Country with a New Name.

This is a very real prospect, analyst's predict that resolution of the long running Name dispute could materialize sometime during this year 2010.

Since it's conception, FYRoM has been troubled with having to find a place for itself in a region of the world well known for it's contributions to world history. FYRoM has been troubled with having to "script" itself an acceptable and believable history and heritage without clashing or conflicting with it's neighbour's, a history and heritage that is original consistant and meets the criteria and compatibilities of established recorded boundaries of mainstream norms.

FYRoM's rogue scholar's, pseudo-historians and specialist propagandist's ignored world academia, they went ahead and "scripted" themselves a history so inept and so perverted, so distorted and so corrupted, so unbelievable they forced the International academic fraternity to get together to form a loose academic grouping in order to defend the virtues of recorded and established academic reference points.

FYRoM was recognized as RoM in haste and under false pretenses, ex-President Bush was issued poor ill thought out substandard advice based on flawed
political considerations which today are no longer applicable.

We are at an Impasse, a quagmire, the only way of escaping this mess and starting afresh is with the help and assistance of close friends and associates. The International community is ready to assist.

FYRoMs explanations for wanting to use a Greek Hellenic Name for language use, ethnicity use and nationality use have not been fully understood. FYRoM's Reasons and Motives remain Suspicious!

Global politicians are being polite when they say, the Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country it's people and their history....and Most importantly a Name for all of it's peoples to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......Today's Greeks can Prove This at any Legal Setting.

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 04:30 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
this genetic map from the university of leicester will show a post-glacial re-expansion of R1a from the Balkans. r1a is the dominant haplogroup in today's slav-speakers. post-glacial = THOUSANDS of years ago:

[link to www.le.ac.uk]



AND more genetics:


DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidence Written In The Y-Chromosome, Part II: Walking the Map

Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 5(2):217-256 2009

Anatole Klyosov



excerpt:

The mapping of the enormous territory from the
Atlantic through Russia and India to the Pacific, and
from Scandinavia to the Arabian Penisula, reveals that
Haplogroup R1a men are marked with practically the
same ancestral haplotype, which is about 4,500 - 4,700
years old. through much of its geographic range.
Exceptions in Europe are found only in the Balkans
(Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common
ancestor is significantly more ancient...



The Balkan Ancient Branch: The Oldest Trace of Haplogroup R1a in Europe?


These results suggest that the first bearers of the R1a1
haplogroup in Europe lived in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo,
Bosnia, Macedonia) between 10 and 13 thousand
ybp. It was shown below that Haplogroup R1a1 has
appeared in Asia, apparently in China or rather South
Siberia, around 20,000 ybp. It appears that some of its
bearers migrated to the Balkans in the following 7-10
thousand years. It was found (Klyosov, 2008a) that
Haplogroup R1b appeared about 16,000 ybp, apparently
in Asia, and it also migrated to Europe in the following
11-13 thousand years. It is of a certain interest that
a common ancestor of the ethnic Russians of R1b is
dated 6775±830 ybp (Klyosov, to be published), which
is about two to three thousand years earlier than most
of the European R1b common ancestors. It is plausible
that the Russian R1b have descended from the Kurgan
archaeological culture.

The data shown above suggests that only about 6,000-
5,000 ybp bearers of R1a1, presumably in the Balkans,
began to mobilize and migrate to the west toward the
Atlantics, to the north toward the Baltic Sea and Scandinavia,
to the east to the Russian plains and steppes, to
the south to Asia Minor, the Middle East, and far south
to the Arabian Sea. All of those local R1a1 haplotypes
point to their common ancestors who lived around
4,800 to 4,500 ybp. On their way through the Russian
plains and steppes the R1a1 tribe presumably formed
the Andronovo archaeological culture, apparently domesticated
the horse, advanced to Central Asia and
formed the Aryan population which dated to about
4,500 ybp. They then moved to the Ural mountains
about 4,000 ybp and migrated to India as the Aryans
circa 3,600-3,500 ybp. Presently, 16% of the male
Indian population, or approximately 100 million people,
bear the R1a1 haplogroups SNP mutation
(SRY10831.2), with their common ancestor of
4,050±500 ybp, of times back to the Andronovo archaeological
culture and the Aryans in the Russian plains and
steppes . The current Indo-European Indian R1a1
haplotypes are practically indistinguishable from Russian,
Ukrainian, and Central Asian R1a1 haplotypes, as
well as from many West and Central European R1a1
haplotypes. These populations speak languages of the
Indo-European language family.

[link to www.google.ca]
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:33 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM was recognized as RoM in haste and under False Pretenses. It was a Blunder a big Mistake recognising FYRoM as the "Republic of Macedonia", the reasons for doing so were based on ill thought out, Poor Substandard and Flawed Advice.

On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of ex-President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized FYRoM as the “Republic of Macedonia.” These Advisors to ex-President Bush issued poor, substandard, ill thought out, flawed Advice, totally disregarding World Academia, they prepared to defy the World body of Knowledge and pressed ahead with recognition at the expense of seriously upsetting Greece, a staunch and loyal long time member of Nato. These Advisors based that flawed Advice on Political and geo-political strategic considerations, which Today are No Longer Applicable.

Ill thought out, Poor Substandard and Flawed Advice....This is what was dispensed to ex-President Bush during he's Term in Office at the White House. Poor Substandard Ill thought out and Flawed Advice is what Prompted George W Bush to Recognise FYRoM as The "Republic of Macedonia".

American Administrations Pride Themselves on having access to the Best Brains of the world and they make sure to Pay them Accordingly.....So What went Wrong ?

How and more to the point Why, did these Highly Paid Advisor's issue Poor Substandard Ill thought out Flawed Advice to ex President Bush when even a Cursory Look at a historic Map of Ancient Greece from any Independent Unbiased Accredited and Non Greek Source would put that Name into the Greek Hellenic Domain.
[link to www.flickr.com]

The Map Clearly shows the Ancient Region of Macedonia geographically connected, and had they researched More, they would have found it to be Culturally, Linguistacally, and Biologically Connected with the rest of Greece and the Greek Hellenic States.

The Recognition of FYRoM as the "Republic of Macedonia" was based on Poor Substandard Ill thought out and Flawed Advice. It had More to do with putting the Greeks in Their Place than anything to do with political or academic correctness. Modern Greek Politicians were taught a big lesson for being Maverick and anti American, at least in that American Administrations eyes.

Those Adviser's gave ex-President Bush Poor Advice and left us a with a Mess which has been an ongoing source of friction and instabilty in the Balkans for the best part of Two Decades.

Here is a List of those Highly Paid Advisor's:
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

The Greeks were Shafted by the American Administration of George W Bush, they used Colin Powel as Front man, his name shall always be linked with those mistakes and blunder's!
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:40 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM's rogue scholar's and pseudo-historians had limited success persuading the global community that they are in fact the real Macedonians. Most learned people associate real Macedonians with Greek Hellenic people.

FYRoM however, has successfully persuaded and convince a great number of it's own people, both at home and abroad [diaspora] that they have historic rights to that name and rights to the heritage associated with that name.

From a global perspective, the ignorant and the apathetic tend to show outward support, they sympathize with FYRoM's point of view, however the learned and the scholarly can see right through FYRoM's pretentious stance.

The problem for FYRoM is this...the longer the name dispute continues, the sympathy and the support dwindle away. After almost two decades the global community have become learned and scholarly, more so than before about the name [Macedonia] and it's Greek Hellenic history.

The global community have witnessed first hand the depths to which FYRoM's politicians are prepared to stoop in order to persuade and convince the outside world of their Macedonian [false] credentials.

The immoral usage of it's institutions of state, used as tools for the promotion of virulent and vehement propaganda directed towards a neighbouring country has not gone unnoticed.

Most learned people remain unconvinced, they have a right to be suspicious, they do not understand the reasons or the motives, why a NoN Greek people would even want to contemplate the use of a Greek Hellenic name for Ethnicity, Language and Nationality.

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......Today's Greeks can Prove This at any Legal Setting.

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 04:46 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYRoM's pretentious usage of the "Macedonian" name for ethnicity use, language use and nationality use, is becoming increasingly untenable. FYRoM can no longer justify or defend the usage of that name without causing conflict at various levels.

FYRoM's rogue scholar's and pseudo historians went ahead and "scripted" themselves a history so inept and so grossly inconsistant and incompatible with the mainstream norm, it inevitably met with stern academic resistance from the international academic fraternity. The coming together of a substantial number of international scholar's to form a loose academic grouping, a politicized unit, ready and willing to speak with one voice in defence of the virtues and importance of academic reference points, put first, above and beyond those of flawed ill thought out political considerations, has irked global politicians at the highest echelons of diplomatic office and with good reason. Academic clout shall ensure that academia's reference points are preserved, ill thought out, flawed political considerations shall not ride roughshod over academia's reference points for the sake of political expediancy.

FYRoM's positions remain untenable, the global academic community are not persuaded and neither are they convinced enough to support FYRoM's stance, they do not understand FYRoM's reasons or motives, why a NoN Greek people would even want to contemplate the use of a Greek Hellenic name for Ethnicity, Language and Nationality use. Suspicions are rife, with many analyst's citing communist era reasons and motives influencing FYRoM's aims and policies in the region.

One thing is for certain, global politicians remain adamant, FYRoM must find a suitable name for itself, in order to fulfill it's aspirations of joining the prestigious economic and security structures of the E.U. and Nato.

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......The global community can see right through it!

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 929725
Turkey
04/01/2010 04:50 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Alexander kicked Turkish dupah, didn't he?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 931755


there were no turks around that time. its persians.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931784
Greece
04/01/2010 04:52 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
What is really surprising in this story is that Skopjians do not want to be named Slavo-Macedonians or North-Macedonians. Which is silly, because if they did they would still have Alexander The Great as their ancestor.

Greece accepts those names for Skopjians.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 929725
Turkey
04/01/2010 04:58 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Macedonia(n)...when this name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia (The World Body of Knowledge).
Other's wanting to usurp this name exclusively should at least properly fully explain their reasons and their motives, why a NoN Greek people should be given the rights and entitlements for it's use.

FYRoM has not properly explained to the world, it's reasons and it's motives for wanting to usurp that name [exclusively] for Ethnic use Language use and Nationality use. Global politicians and the International academic fraternity remain unconvinced and Suspicious, they have not been fully persuaded by FYRoM's positions on the matter.

For those people who for one reason or another, find Hellenism Repugnant should at least have the common courtesy to face and accept this fact, that todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of that Hellenic legacy. No other modern people on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes and their legacy, than today's modern Greeks.....today's Greeks will protect and defend this position, both Legally and Morally.

Todays Southernmost Slavs want this name for exclusive use in order to describe their language, ethnicity and nationality, disrespecting world academia and the teachings of recorded established mainstream European ancient history.

Macedonia.....it's ancient history is impregnated, fused, scratched into the modern Greek Hellenic peoples Collective Consciousness like a lazer beam burning a latent image deep into the surface of plexiglass or photoreceptive materials. Macedonia is inextricably attached to Hellenism,
No serious minded scholar would risk doing damage to his or her's academic integrity and credibility arguing against the teachings and intellectual clout of world academia.

After almost two decades.....global politicians have been fully briefed on the backround and the historical use of the Macedonian name. They have become learned on the matter, they are aware of it's Greek Hellenic origins and attributes.

The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country, it's people their ethno origins and their history....and Most importantly a Name for all of it's people to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......The global community can see right through it!

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694


the more you post that shit, the more one wants to give macedonian side what they ask.

ffs. you have killed the thread with this shit.
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/01/2010 05:05 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
We dont have to prove anything to anyone. History proves itself. And we really have no problem with anyone, we accept all our neighbors as long as they are good neighbors.

As for the claim that we are not the same people as in ancient times, we could easily say the same for every ancient people. So either there are no ancient descendants anywhere in the world, or there are. If we talk about pure races now, it is simple a myth. Only a very few could be of an ancient pure race these days, and these I guess can be found in any modern society.
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/01/2010 05:10 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
the more you post that shit, the more one wants to give macedonian side what they ask.

ffs. you have killed the thread with this shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929725


It seems that we are pressed to 'close' all the open geopolitical issues we have, in order to get financial help. The FYROM issue, the Cyprus issue and the border problems we have with Turkey.
So we are a bit upset these days.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 923838
United States
04/01/2010 05:11 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
the greatest of all
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 05:12 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Macedonia(n)...when this name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia (The World Body of Knowledge).
Other's wanting to usurp this name exclusively should at least properly fully explain their reasons and their motives, why a NoN Greek people should be given the rights and entitlements for it's use.

FYRoM has not properly explained to the world, it's reasons and it's motives for wanting to usurp that name [exclusively] for Ethnic use Language use and Nationality use. Global politicians and the International academic fraternity remain unconvinced and Suspicious, they have not been fully persuaded by FYRoM's positions on the matter.

For those people who for one reason or another, find Hellenism Repugnant should at least have the common courtesy to face and accept this fact, that todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of that Hellenic legacy. No other modern people on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes and their legacy, than today's modern Greeks.....today's Greeks will protect and defend this position, both Legally and Morally.

Todays Southernmost Slavs want this name for exclusive use in order to describe their language, ethnicity and nationality, disrespecting world academia and the teachings of recorded established mainstream European ancient history.

Macedonia.....it's ancient history is impregnated, fused, scratched into the modern Greek Hellenic peoples Collective Consciousness like a lazer beam burning a latent image deep into the surface of plexiglass or photoreceptive materials. Macedonia is inextricably attached to Hellenism,
No serious minded scholar would risk doing damage to his or her's academic integrity and credibility arguing against the teachings and intellectual clout of world academia.

After almost two decades.....global politicians have been fully briefed on the backround and the historical use of the Macedonian name. They have become learned on the matter, they are aware of it's Greek Hellenic origins and attributes.

The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country, it's people their ethno origins and their history....and Most importantly a Name for all of it's people to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......The global community can see right through it!

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Favour of the Greeks!


the more you post that shit, the more one wants to give macedonian side what they ask.

ffs. you have killed the thread with this shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929725
It is educational...after all people out there need to know what is going on.

Are the modern Slavic Macedonians descended from the Greeks and Alexander the Great?
by James Mayfield (Chairman, European Heritage Library)
[link to euroheritage.net]
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 05:19 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
No serious minded scholar would put at risk his / her's academic credibility and integrity arguing against the ancient Macedonians Greek Hellenic credentials, similarly no serious minded politician would put at risk his / her's political credibility and integrity arguing against the teachings of world academia [The World Body of Knowledge].

The SouthSlavic countries should seriously consider the quality of their teachings on ancient european history, in europe we must all be on the same page and on the same chapter of our common european history book, we can not have a situation where the slavic countries are teaching their pupils and students Alexander the Great was a southernslav, when the rest of europe teach within the boundaries of recorded and established mainstream norms.

Alexander the Great's Greek Hellenic credentials remian sealed locked tight, the slavs should look elsewhere to search for their ethno roots and origins. Contaminating ancient european history with perverse distortions of the mainstream norms is plainly silly pretentious and farcicle!

[link to macedonia-evidence.org]

To date 362 scholar's of repute endorse and support Alexander the Greats Greek Hellenic Credentials.

The Evidence is Overwhelming!
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 05:23 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Academia [The World Body of Knowledge] exist's to Certify or Reject Bold Assertions and Exotic Claims, provided they meet the stringent criteria set by academic principles / disciplines. There is a need for these checks and balances to be in place in order to protect us from Absurd Claims and Exotic Assertions advanced by groups or individuals harbouring agenda's complexes and delusions. Academia is needed, Required for the most Obvious of Reasons, therefore it's Findings Must be Acknowledged and Respected.

Slavdom through FYRoM, Disrespects the Findings of Academia [The World Body of Knowledge]. FYRoM and it's Wanton use of Pseudo History, advances Bold Assertions and Exotic Claims regarding Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. Slavdom Issued a Vitual License giving FYRoM the Green Light to Proceed with it's Perversions Distortions and Corruptions of Established Recorded Mainstream Ancient European History.

FYRoM's Rogue Scholars and Pseudo Historians have Intentionally Blurred the Distinction, Achievements and Contributions Ancient Greeks made to World History, making it impossible for the less well educated to be able to differentiate the Greek Contributions from the Slavic. The Relationship between Hellenism and Slavdom, their Respective Accomplishments and Achievements, their Contributions to World History remain Seperate and Distinct.

Hellenism is Distinct from Slavdom in Ways best Explained by the International Academic Fraternity, the Worlds Best Scholars. Todays Greeks are the Sole and Legal Modern Representatives of the Hellenic Legacy. No Other Modern People on this Planet are Closer to the Ancient Hellenes and Their Legacy than todays Modern Greeks. Todays Greeks Take Seriously Their Moral and Legal Obligations Towards Hellenism.

Slavdom Insults Modern Greeks, Slavdom Insults World Academia.......simply by keeping quiet on the subject of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. Senior Slavs, Slavdoms Scholarly Elite have a duty, a Responsibilty to properly educate their own Kinsmen about Modern Greeks and Hellenism. In Europe we must All be on the Same Page when it comes to Learning about our Common Ancestors and our Common History. Lets Start Using our Common Sense and Basic Human Intelligence. World History was not Written Yesterday. World History has been Cross Referenced, checked and double checked to be in Synchronization with, and in Agreement with the World Body of Knowledge. Slavdom and Hellenism need not Clash Over Macedonia.

Slavdom through FYRoM seeks to play politics with the Inventors of politics.
Greeks.....The Inventors of Politics, seek to protect their Hellenic Legacy.
Edgar

User ID: 931814
Greece
04/01/2010 05:25 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Talking about ancient Greece,being Greek at that time was something vague as being British today.A British man can be either English or Irish or Scotch or Welsh.So in ancient Greece several races existed such as Macedonians,Cretans,Spartans and so on who were relative between them but not the same race that s why they were so often in war.

Ancient Greeks have vanished long time ago as other ancient races disappeared as well.Maybe a few Cretans have remained who are original descedants of the ancient ones.Modern Greeks don t want do admith though that they are not descendants of ancient greeks but a mixture of Albanians,Turks,Vlachs and so on.It s like saying Obama is a descendant of "ancient americans"!..."Skopjians" or Macedonians are not Alexander The Great s descendants either.They just happen to live today in the same area were he lived centuries ago just as modern greeks want to think about themselves in relation with ancient greeks.

Read Falmerayer s theories who proved that ancient greeks dissapeared centuries ago.
Im not here to tell you how it ends,but how it begins...
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/01/2010 05:26 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
In the absence of Academia, people are free to say and do as they please, but there are limits. Without Academic Reference Points,common sense constraints and parameter's, people are free to:

1.....Say Crazy Things
2.....Write Stupid Things
3.....Print Silly Things
4.....Distort the True Meaning of Things
5.....Corrupt the True Meaning of Things
6.....Pervert the True Meaning of Things

Now we can understand and appreciate the necessity and the importance of Academia. Academia [The World Body of Knowledge] exist's to verify and endorse facts, only then do they get written, only when there is agreement amongst the Worlds Top Accredited Scholars and Academics.

Macedonia(n) is a Greek Hellenic Name....This is an Academic Reference Point. When the Name Macedonia(n) is used, it refers to Greek Hellenic People.......by Default.

Slavic Educators, Scholars, Wise men and politicians can Resolve the Name Dispute today if they wanted, but they Intentionally choose not to. They allow Unqualified Pseudo Historians to Corrupt and Distort Established Recorded Mainstream History without Confronting them or Correcting the Misinformation which uses the good name of Slavdom in Vain.

The Allure of Alexander the Great having Slavonic Origins and through FYRoM, Slavdom becomes somehow connected to the peoples of antiquity is bait so Enticing, that even the most Flimsiest, the most Dubious Material Evidence is Sufficient to keep the Mysticism Alive for Sinister Political Reasons and Motives. Is this what we want to teach Slavdoms youth. The Lure of Alexander the Great having Slavonic origins was the bait, Ancient History the Trap. Slavdoms pseudo historians took the bait and trapped themselves in an endless historical debate they were inevitably destined to loose.

Slavdoms Rogue Scholars and Pseudo Historians Currupted and Brainwashed their Youth beyond Repair, they have Destroyed the Lives of their children, students and pupils, poisoned their minds with vile, vehement and virulent anti-Greek propaganda. In the Face of Such Overwhelming Evidence in support of the Greek positions, only a Hardened Propagandist or a Severely brainwashed Individual could deny the Greek Hellenic Credentials and Identity of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.

Slavic Logic has displaced Common Sense. We got stuck on Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians for so Long, a Definative Answer is sought, a Crystal Clear Answer, a Clinical Incision is required, one that will seperate and Distinguish Greek Macedonians from Other's who seek to usurp a Greek Hellenic Name exclusively for themselves. Ethnicity, Language and Nationality shall have to find an alternative name in order to Identify FYRoM's disparate peoples.

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......Today's Greeks can Prove This at any Legal Setting.
Macedonia(n) by Deception is NOT Macedonia(n) at all. Macedonia Void of it's Hellenic Elements is NOT Macedonia at all.

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in support of the Greeks.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 929725
Turkey
04/01/2010 05:27 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
the more you post that shit, the more one wants to give macedonian side what they ask.

ffs. you have killed the thread with this shit.


It seems that we are pressed to 'close' all the open geopolitical issues we have, in order to get financial help. The FYROM issue, the Cyprus issue and the border problems we have with Turkey.
So we are a bit upset these days.
 Quoting: Ostria


what this guy is doing is not being upset or any other shit. he is basically spamming thread with stuff that noone, not even many greeks or macedonians themselves give a shit about.

once, ok. maybe twice, ok. but fucking up a whole thread which could have been a decent thread with useful historical information ?

fuck that.
Ostria

User ID: 931616
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04/01/2010 05:34 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Talking about ancient Greece,being Greek at that time was something vague as being British today.A British man can be either English or Irish or Scotch or Welsh.So in ancient Greece several races existed such as Macedonians,Cretans,Spartans and so on who were relative between them but not the same race that s why they were so often in war.

Ancient Greeks have vanished long time ago as other ancient races disappeared as well.Maybe a few Cretans have remained who are original descedants of the ancient ones.Modern Greeks don t want do admith though that they are not descendants of ancient greeks but a mixture of Albanians,Turks,Vlachs and so on.It s like saying Obama is a descendant of "ancient americans"!..."Skopjians" or Macedonians are not Alexander The Great s descendants either.They just happen to live today in the same area were he lived centuries ago just as modern greeks want to think about themselves in relation with ancient greeks.

Read Falmerayer s theories who proved that ancient greeks dissapeared centuries ago.
 Quoting: Edgar


Its not so easy. It wasnt one race with a small population that is easy to disappear. And this land was always populated by Greeks, when other people came to conquer it. And most of them were kicked away.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 05:36 PM
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The citizens of Fyrom are a mosaic, a reflection of the ethnic make-up of the Balkan region in general, this is accepted and understood.

The problem we have today is that a newly established Balkan statelet wishes to adopt a Macedonian National Identity, this is not a big problem in itself, but what has made it a big problem is the want to usurp the regions ancient history and heritage, disregarding world academia and other's in that same region that have been using the Macedonian name to self identify with in the regional geographic context, for millenia.....since the beginning!

The foolish contradictary distortions and falsifications of the regions ancient and recent history, has escalated what was originaly a bilateral problem, to one that has become an international problem, forcing the worlds politicians to focus their attention and ponder the meaning of "ethnicity" and it's application in today's modern and complex world.

The name dispute has dragged on for too long, the best part of two decades have passed, what has been acheived....?
A whole generation of Slavic youth, both at home and abroad have been brainwashed "beyond repair" wasted youth, taught to hate envy and despise everything Greek Hellenic, for them , and only for them "Hellenism" becomes a loaded word.

A whole generation of FYRoM youth have been raised on pseudo history, home grown Ideas theories and conjectures advocating a perverse distorted corrupt ethnogenesis origins myth. The youth of FYRoM have been brainwashed beyond repair, the consequencies of this will manifest itself later in years to come, and weigh heavily on the new countries collective conciousness for generations to come.

The collation of FYRoM's X files are almost 20 years deep. Everything that was ever written, both old and new will be made readily accessable to the new generation. Fyrom's Rogue scholars and Pseudo Historians have gone to great lengths in order to erase and detach the Greek Hellenic Identity of the ancient Macedonians so that they could insert or superimpose their own Slavic Identity on them. This has caused the pseudo historians and specialist propagandist's many problems, the most serious being a withdrawal of sympathy and support from a great many quarters.

Ancient European history will not be revised nor rewritten in order to appease FYRoM's revisionist historians. Ancient Macedonian history is inextricably linked to the Greeks, this remains the current established recorded mainstream view, therefore....European ancient history remains unaltered and unchanged.

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people, from the dawn of time until the present. Macedonia void of it's Greek Hellenic elements is not Macedonia at all.
Macedonia(n) by deception is not Macedonia(n) at all. FYRoM uses the Macedonian name under false pretenses and the Greeks can prove it!
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/01/2010 05:36 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
what this guy is doing is not being upset or any other shit. he is basically spamming thread with stuff that noone, not even many greeks or macedonians themselves give a shit about.

once, ok. maybe twice, ok. but fucking up a whole thread which could have been a decent thread with useful historical information ?

fuck that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929725


I agree with you. I m not even reading what he posts. lol
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 05:47 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
renaissance artists gulio clovio had Macedonian heritage. even in the 1500s he was known as "The Macedonian". he was born in what is today croatia and had a slavonic name, after his family emigrated there from Macedonia

his famous portrait was painted by clovio's good friend - none other than EL GRECO -- The Greek!

The Macedonian -- il macedoine

The greek -- el greco

1500s



Giorgio Clovio was an Italian Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter. He was also called Macedo or Il Macedone because of his Macedonian origin, and was also a priest. He was the greatest illuminator of the Italian High Renaissance, and arguably the last very notable artist in the long tradition of the illuminated manuscript, before some modern revivals.

Clovio was born in Grižane, in the Hungary (today Croatia), near Crikvenica in Kvarner bay in what was then the diocese of Modruš. Vasari says that at baptism Clovio's name was Giorgio Iulio, his family name was Clovi and he was a Macedonian. Croatians claims that his Croatian name was likely Juraj Klovic and the Catholic Encyclopedia states that his original name was perhaps Glovic, while J.W.Bradley speculates that Clovio's surname was Glovicic.


El Greco, the celebrated Greek artist from Crete, who later worked in Spain painted two portraits of Clovio whilst still in Rome...


[link to www.artexpertswebsite.com]
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 05:51 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Macedonia [ancient region] is Intrinsically and Inextricably linked with the Greek Hellenic people this is an established academic reference point.

Today's modern Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of their legacy. No Other modern people on this Planet are Closer to the ancient Hellenes....This is an academic reference point.

Macedonia Void of it's Hellenic Elements is Not Macedonia at all. It would be foolish, deceptive and false to claim otherwise!

FYRoM tells the world that Yugoslavs are Macedonians...not SlavMacedonians but the true and proper descendants of the ancient Macedonians of antiquity, disrespecting the teachings of world academia [The world body of knowledge].
[link to www.macedonianhistory.ca]
Pure FYRoM propaganda exist's in booklet form....material evidence!

FYRoM aided and abetted by Slavdoms Rogue Scholar's and Pseudo Historians have intentionally brainwashed the minds of their own children....."beyond Repair".
Young Slavic children are taught to believe in a Slavic Alexander the Great, where the ancient Macedonians were in reality Slavic people speaking oldchurch Slavonic in ancient times.

False deceptive propaganda, designed and developed to blur the distiction between Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks.

Modern Greeks have been Rubbished, Insulted Ridiculed and Humiliated on a global scale by FYRoM and it's backer' supporter's and sponsor's.

Modern Greeks reserve the right to Extract Maximum Gains in any negotiations regarding the usage of the Macedonian Name by a NoN Greek people.

Most learned people remain perplexed, they do not understand the reasons or the motive's, why a NoN Greek people would even want to contemplate the use of a Greek Hellenic Name for Language use Ethnicity use and Nationality use.

Most learned people remain Suspicious, those reasons and those motive's have not been fully Explained, and neither have they been fully understood!

FYRoM uses the Macedonian Name Under False Pretenses......Today's Greeks can Prove This at any Legal Setting.

False Pretenses:
a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.
[link to dictionary.reference.com]

The Evidence is simply Overiding, Unsurmountable and Overwhelmingly in Support of the Greeks!
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 06:05 PM
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The Macedonian Name can not be detached or seperated away from Hellenism. The Macedonian name is Intrinsically and Inextricably linked to the Greek Hellenic people.

If Hellenic Elements exist north of the current Greek Hellenic border then FYRoM had better inform the world and it's peoples of their Hellenic Attributes.....Macedonia void of Hellenic Elements is Not Macedonia at all, it would be deceptive and false to claim Otherwise.

Since it's conception, FYRoM has been troubled with to "script" itself a history in a region of the world known to most learned people as being associated with the "Greek Hellenic World".

Southeastern Europe......The Greek Hellenic World,
from the ancient Greeks to the latin Romans to the Greek speaking Romioi [Byzantium] Eastern Romans, all this has been recorded and become mainstream history, it is common knowledge to the learned peoples of the world.

Common knowledge and Common Sense dictate how far and to what extent, a lie can be stretched before Academia, the world body of knowledge takes action and responds......clamps down on it like a ton of bricks and obliterates that lie to kingdom come with academic evidence.

Common knowledge and Common Sense, this is what it takes to resolve disputes of a historical nature, where the recorded history of the world has been checked and re-checked by leading scholar's and academics, then it gets endorsed and only then does that knowledge get distributed at the worlds leading learning institutions.

Consistency and Compatibility.....These are the key words here, where Theories, Ideas and Conjectures have to meet the constraints of recorded established mainstream history in order to get Endorsed with that academic stamp of credibility.

Common Sense dictates that if you are going to Alter or Rewrite Ancient European History in order to "script" yourself a history, then you had better get your Facts right first, because you are going to Need that Alteration Endorsed by academia (The World Body of Knowledge).

If Credibility and Integrity are important factor's to be recond with, when you want your Theories, Ideas and Conjectures to be taken seriously by the world's leading scholars and historians, then clearly in this case, FYRoM's attempts at "scripting" itself a history has None.

FYRoM has been distributing it's own versions of Ancient European History to it's own children, pupils and students for almost Two Decades. FYRoM's Scholars and Educators have been dispensing a Lie. Pseudo History.....Perverse Disorted Corruptions of recorded established maintream history have been dispensed intentionally, for politically motivated reasons.

In Europe we must All be on the Same Page when it comes to Learning about our Common Ancestors and our Common History. Let's Start Using our Common Sense. World History was not Written Yesterday. World History has been checked and re-checked then Cross Referenced to be Compatible to and in Agreement with the World Body of Knowledge.....The Worlds Best Academics and Scholars.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
04/01/2010 06:09 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
FYROM???? FYROM?????

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. FYROM?????

FYROM????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

acronyms weren't good enough for Canada, why should an acronym be used for Macedonia?????:



Canada might have been Efisga! Okay, all you Canucks, sing together now: “O Efisga, our home and native land!” Canada was not the only name our forebears considered when in 1865 they began thinking about a name for the dominion which they wanted to make out of the provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick .

As W. B. Hamilton points out in The MacMillan Book of Canadian Place Names, we should be glad they chose Canada, and not

Mesopelagia (Greek, land between the seas)

Vesperia (Latin, land of the evening star)

Ursalia (Latin, place of bears)

Borealia (Latin, northern place)

Cabotia (after explorer John Cabot)

Tuponia (acronym for The United Provinces of North America )

Colonia (Yeccchhh!)

Hochelaga (Iroquoian village on the site of present-day Montreal)

The hideous tongue-twister, Albionora, was given a serious chance. Get it? Albion (England) of the Nor-th.

If Ursalia ‘land of bears’ had been chosen instead of Canada, just think! The RCMP would be the RUMP, the Royal Ursalian Mounted Police!



Woodcut by Jost Amman circa 1580, 'A Bear Playing a Bagpipe'

What about Efisga? A revolting acronym based on the first letters of England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, and Aboriginal lands.

Canada’s best writer about Canadian place names is Alan Rayburn. In his excellent book Naming Canada: Stories about Place Names from Canadian Geographic (University of Toronto Press, 1994), Mr. Rayburn unearthed this delightful tidbit:

“When Thomas D’Arcy McGee addressed the Legislative Assembly on 9 February 1865 on the subject of the proposed union, he noted such suggestions as Tuponia and Hochelaga, and remarked whimsically: “Now I would ask any Hon. Member of the House how he would feel if he woke up some fine morning and found himself, instead of a Canadian, a Tuponian or a Hochelagander?”

[link to www.billcasselman.com]
Nick the Greek (OP)
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United Kingdom
04/01/2010 06:13 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Propaganda should Not be Rewarded, it should be Exposed Confronted then Corrected and Those Perpatrating it should be brought to Justice.

JS Gandeto aka Joseph M Grezlovski bears all the hallmarks of specializing in Anti-Greek propaganda.

The question is, did he work alone or was his participation in the de-Hellenization of the Ancient Macedonians part of a Wider, Well Financed, Well Planned, Well Co-ordinated global effort to Defame the modern Greeks, by every Greek Hating Man and he's Dog.

The Timing of JS Gandeto aka Joseph M Grezlovski's book launch....On Sunday, November 30th, 2003 shows up on the Radar as having coincided with a string of Global Articles and Activities relating to Vehement and Virulent Anti-Greek propaganda.

Researcher's have found common ground. Themes and synergies which link the defamation of the Modern Greek Character to that of the De-Hellenization of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. Anti- Greek Propaganda Stretched across the Globe, North America, the UK in particular plus Europe and Asia. Researcher's have Isolated those Reporting Agencies, News Groups, News Paper's, Radio Stations, Media Outlets and Internet Sources which Outputted Anti-Greek Propaganda around the time of the Anti-Greek Peak. Greeks can Now Reveal that linkage was Established between those Specializing in Anti-Greek Propaganda and those who chose to Back it and Sponsor it.

Time has Moved On....Things are different Now in respect to the Name dispute than before. Political Considerations have changed and Greece appears to have weathered the Anti-Greek Frenzy by every Greek Hating Man and he's dog with Head and Principles Held High. Greece holds the Academic and Moral High grounds, the Greeks have never use Propaganda to justify themsleves.

Greeks are Utilizing and Prioritizing their Efforts, using Intelligence and Methodology in an effort to bring to Justice, those who set out to De-Hellenize Defame Ridicule and Humiliate today's Modern Greeks.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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United Kingdom
04/01/2010 06:18 PM
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Europeans....If only we were all on the same page!
All of us [Europeans] should be on the same page and on the same chapter of our common European history book. The [Official] recorded established mainstream version of our common European history remains consistant to and compatible with the histories of all European peoples as they traversed through the ages, evolving from the group, tribe, kingdom, city state, empire and finally in the latter stages, the independant modern Nation states as we know them today.

History can not be altered [Rewritten] by one person or by one Nation.....consensus is required for obvious reasons. That alteration must be seen to be consistant with and compatible to the histories of other European peoples. Conflict in this regard ensures that those seeking to revise in order to rewrite our common European history book, shall not get what they seek, endorsement with the seal of Academic approval.

In FYRoM's case we can clearly see what went wrong where the conflict occured and how this type of mistake was easily preventable. FYRoM's Rogue scholar's and Pseudo Historians went ahead full throttle and "scripted" themselves a history so perverse and so corrupt, so distorted and so out of step with the mainstream norm, it met scholarly resistance from the international academic fraternity. Our common European history book can not include within it's chapter's inconsistant theories, or contain within it's volumes of pages incompatible ideas or conjectures.

FYRoM's [Mind] architects....those Rogue scholar's and Pseudo Historians who did so much damage to their children and students, should look deeper into the regions [Byzantine] GrecoSlavic common heritage.....This is where we could find common ground.

Macedonia [Region] it's history and it's heritage have always been within the Greek Hellenic Domain.
That region witnessed many incursions from many different groups tribes kingdoms empires, invader settler's found themselves in the Greek Hellenic,
Greco-Roman world, some of these Newcomer's or Latecomer's Hellenized themselves willingly and voluntarily and are now part of the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples.......The Greek Family of Nations.

Greeks have influenced many groups tribes kingdoms and empires.....The Slavic Peoples are just One of Many taking on the Culture and Traditions of their Greek Neighbour's. Our GrecoSlavic Common Heritage Exist's, it should be Amplified when and wherever possible!
Anonymous Coward
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Greece
04/01/2010 06:21 PM
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Talking about ancient Greece,being Greek at that time was something vague as being British today.A British man can be either English or Irish or Scotch or Welsh.So in ancient Greece several races existed such as Macedonians,Cretans,Spartans and so on who were relative between them but not the same race that s why they were so often in war.

Ancient Greeks have vanished long time ago as other ancient races disappeared as well.Maybe a few Cretans have remained who are original descedants of the ancient ones.Modern Greeks don t want do admith though that they are not descendants of ancient greeks but a mixture of Albanians,Turks,Vlachs and so on.It s like saying Obama is a descendant of "ancient americans"!..."Skopjians" or Macedonians are not Alexander The Great s descendants either.They just happen to live today in the same area were he lived centuries ago just as modern greeks want to think about themselves in relation with ancient greeks.

Read Falmerayer s theories who proved that ancient greeks dissapeared centuries ago.


Its not so easy. It wasnt one race with a small population that is easy to disappear. And this land was always populated by Greeks, when other people came to conquer it. And most of them were kicked away.
 Quoting: Ostria



No you are wrong...I didn t say it is easy at first...Don t forget it is a process taking place over centuries...It was many races at that time actually.But have a look which races live in Greece today...Let me mention Vlachs...A barbarian race that had an independent country some centuries ago and today claim to be Greeks because they are ashamed to be Vlachs so it s better for them to be called Greeks.You think Alexander The Great had to do anything with Vlachs Albanians Pontians Turks and so on?

You can believe whatever you want but you can t change history like this.Remember Obama is president of the US and he is originally from Kenya...Populations move from one side of Earth to another for many reasons.Some races also stop to exist...
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 06:25 PM
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Nationality Language Ethnicity and their usage in today's Modern and Complicated World.

Individuals can self declare, self Identify as they wish provided it is within legal constraints and common sense parameter's.

As an "Individual", you have the right to self express and declare as you wish, provided that it meets with all the legal obligations and criteria, and of course one does not liable one's self or other's in that due process. As an Individual you can allocate yourself any Name you wish.

FYRoM as a Nation does Not have the same rights befitting an Individual.

Human rights and the rights of modern people to self express (Nationally) as they wish, is no longer considered viable or even appropriate in the face of strong academic arguments in favour of the rights of existing indigenous [Greek Hellenic] peoples, who already use that Macedonia(n) name in the regional geographic context.

The People of FYRoM declaring themselves Nationally as Macedonians, is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have been residing in that same region and they have been using that same Name since time immemorial...Modern Greeks can Prove it!

FYRoM's Nationality, Language and Ethnicity shall have to find a Suitable Name....a name that will properly describe and Identify it's disparate peoples, their ethno origins and where best they fit in today's modern and complicated world.

Macedonia(n).....when this Name is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia [The World Body of Knowledge].

Greeks can Prove that Macedonians have always been Greeks, from the dawn of time untill the present.

The Greek Nation can Not Allow a NoN Greek People to Adopt or Usurp Greek Hellenic Names, Symbols, History and Heritage without consequences!

Show me a Serious Minded Modern Politician, that will put at Risk Damaging his / her's Political Credibility and Integrity, Arguing against World Academia over the use of a Greek Hellenic Name by a NoN Greek People fantasizing about their biological closeness to Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 06:33 PM
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BYLAZORA - Slavonic-sounding placename in Paeonia, immediately north of historic Macedonia, and part of Greater Macedonia -- 200s BC:

today in slavic language "bela zora" = "white dawn":

note: the letters B and V are often interchangeable, eg Basil and Vasil

Bylazora or Vylazora was a Paionian city from the period of early classic antiquity. It is located in Ovče Pole, a valley in the Republic of Macedonia, 4 km away from present day Sveti Nikole. It was a large city, with an area of about 19 hectares.

The geographic dominance over the surrounding valley has determined the communications significance of the city in ancient times. It was situated between the states (or sometimes provinces) of Dardani, Thrace and Macedonia. Ancient Bylazora was the biggest and most significant city of Paionia, mentioned in the records of Polybius and Titus Livius. They emphasize its strategic geographic position as a frontier of the northern border of Macedonia against the Dardanians.

According to experts, there are two significant dates related to the relations between ancient Macedonia and Bylazora: The first is 217 B.C. when king Philip V of Macedonia reconstructed its fortifications; The second is 168 B.C. when king Perseus of Macedonia, during the Third Macedonian War, arranged military support from the Gauls who were camping nearby, in defending the city against the Romans.[1]


some proofs of the interchangeability of some letters:


Essays #6
By transposing the letters, we have (A)-B (B and V are interchangeable in Hebrew) and H-H. Av (pronounced ahv) means father. Thus we have the word father ...
www.robertwaxman.org/id55.html - Cached - Similar


Finding our fathers: a guidebook to Jewish genealogy - Google Books Result
Dan Rottenberg - 1986 - Reference - 401 pages
The letter A is sometimes interchangeable with E, for example (as in Adelson and Edelson). Some other interchangeable uses: B and V (as in ...
books.google.ca/books?isbn=0806311517...


Soundex - FamilySearch Wiki
30 Jul 2008 ... Soundex is based on the classification of letters of the alphabet ... For example, in many languages the B and V sounds are nearly interchangeable; ... Represents the Letters. 1, b, f, p, v. 2, c, g, j, k, q, s, x, z ...
[link to wiki.familysearch.org (secure)] - Cached - Similar


BYLA ZORA
WHITE DAWN

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