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Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 06:40 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
how about words for water?

ancient Macedonian word for water = bedy
ancient Phrygian word for water = vedy
Modern Macedonian word for water = voda



An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.


--------------------------------------------

The main attraction of Edessa is the Waterfalls. Linguists say its name comes from the ancient greek word "vedy" (vedy > Vedyssa > Edessa), a word used by Homer but forgotten today, meaning "water". Well, Edessa is really a water-city. Most of its life is developed around the waterfalls

--------------------------------------------



Name
The ancient Greek name Ἔδεσσα (Édessa) was commemorated by Seleucus I Nicator in refounding an ancient city in northern Mesopotamia. It has been associated by modern scholars with the Phrygian bedu ("water").[2] Similarly, it was ascribed an Illyrian origin by Ulrich Wilcken in his biography of Alexander the Great,[3] the "town of the waters", due to its renowned waterfall and generally abundant water resources. These views gain some support if the later Slavic-derived name Vodena (Greek: Βοδενά, Old Church Slavonic: Водьнъ, from voda, "water") is considered. The modern Bulgarian and Macedonian Slavic name of the city is Воден (Voden). In Turkish, the city is known as Vodina, and in Aromanian the city is known as either Edessa, Vudena or Vodina.


-- BEDY/BEDU
-- VEDY
-- VODA (water in modern Macedonian)
Nick the Greek (OP)
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Most learned people remain perplexed, they do not understand the Reasons or the Motives, why a predominantly Slavonic people would even want to use a Greek Hellenic name to self Identify with.

The Sinister use of a Greek Hellenic Name [Macedonia] for self Identification purposes, by a NoN Greek people, is increasingly viewed by global politicians as rather suspicious but also confusing and problematic.

Why a Slavonic people would even want to contemplate the use of a Greek Hellenic Name for language use, ethnicity use, and nationality use remains a mystery, global politicians are right to be sceptical and right to be suspicious.....the reasons and the motives have not been fully understood and neither have they been explained properly.

FYRoM has lost credibility, the sympathy and the support it once solicited from a substantial number of global politicians has all but vanished.......disappeared!

After almost two decades.....global politicians have been fully briefed on the backround and historical use of the Macedonian name. They are aware of it's Greek Hellenic origins and attributes.

The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country and it's people, and Most importantly a Name for all of it's peoples to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!
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04/01/2010 06:53 PM
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NICK THE GREEK:

explain the etymology of the town name EDESSA. hint: look at my last post.

and also, quit SPAMMING. but First, explain the etymology of EDESSA (p.s. it isn't a "lost" Homeric word. see my last post).
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 06:55 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Greek Hellenic history is being held hostage to propaganda by slavdoms rogue scholar's and pseudo historians. Ignorance and apathy have given way to Slavic and Turkic propagandist's, who's skills and talents have been utilized
to litter the internet with a revised version of ancient European history.

Slavic and Turkic propagandist's would have us believe that FYRoM's disparate peoples are the true modern descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians, whilst they would also argue that today's Turkish peoples are the modern descendants of Paris, Hector and the ancient Trojans.

Turkic propagandist's with some external support have even gone as far as to suggest that the modern Turks are biologically related to the ancient Etruscans making them [Turks] indigenous autochthonous native peoples to Anatolia
and to the European region of Thrace.

Now.....people that are Ignorant and apathetic towards historical matter's may not care or even give a damn expressing an opinion this way or that way, but learned people can not standby passively by, watching, whilst these Slavic and Turkic rogue scholar's and specialist propagandist's corrupt pervert distort and contaminate ancient [[Greek Hellenic][European]] history.

The International academic fraternity are sending out a clear message to Slavic and Turkic pseudo historians and specialist propagandist's........

World Academia shall challenge anything and everything which belongs outside the boundaries of the mainstream norm.

Academic clout and dynamism shall protect and defend the virtues of recorded and established academic reference points, ancient European history shall not be revised in order to accomodate poor, ill thought out, flawed political considerations or to appease Slavic or Turkic pseudo historians and rogue scholar's.
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
DID ALEXANDER THE GREAT SPREAD HELLENISM???

NO!!! NYET!!! NADA!!! NO! NO! NO!

Hellenism DECLINED under Alexander the Great!!!


[link to www.universityofcalifornia.edu]

How Great Was Alexander? New Research Challenges His Cultural Impact
2003-06-13

Berkeley - Alexander the Great may not have been so great after all.

A University of California, Berkeley-led group of researchers is challenging the common history that credits the Macedonian king with initiating the spread of ancient Greek culture throughout the Middle East during his conquest of the region during the 4th century B.C.

Backed by a nearly $234,000 collaborative research grant from the Getty Foundation, the team over the next two years will try to document a thriving Hellenized culture in the city of Dor, Israel, at least 100 years before Alexander marched in.

The birth of the Hellenistic period, when Greek culture began to spread far beyond its native territory, has long been set around 334 B.C. to 323 B.C., when Alexander and his troops began their 20,000-mile conquest, thundering from Macedonia south through what is now Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Egypt. The troops then set off for Persia and India.

"Our hunch is that at Dor, Hellenization - the wholesale importation of Greek material culture - begins in the 5th century B.C. and goes into high gear around about 400 B.C. So, it precedes Alexander," said Andrew Stewart, a UC Berkeley professor of art history and classics in the College of Letters & Science. He also is the project's principal investigator.

"There is, as far as we can tell, no boost given to this process by Alexander's conquests," said Stewart. "So, immediately we are challenging the view that it was Alexander who principally spread Greek culture throughout the Middle East."

One of Stewart's UC Berkeley colleagues and an assistant professor of Near Eastern Studies, Marian Feldman, said the Mediterranean sea has long brought peoples and cultures together. Particularly close ties between the Levantine coast - which includes present-day Israel, Lebanon and Syria - and Greece appear as early as 1,400 B.C., she said.

"Tel Dor, located directly on the sea, should have participated in these interactions," Feldman said.

Dor was most likely a Phoenician or Phoenician-related city in the early centuries of the first millennium, and the Phoenicians are renowned for their seafaring skills and merchantile entrepreneurship, as memorialized in Homer's "Odyssey," she said. "When the excavations at Dor go deeper," said Feldman, "these contacts will be probably be shown to reach further back in time."

Stewart's team members will direct their attention to the wealth of materials found at the ancient Israelite seaport site of Dor, established by the Canaanites around 2,000 B.C. and once the harbor of King Solomon. Alexander the Great passed by Dor on his march from Tyre to Gaza and Egypt, by which time the city hosted a lively mixture of Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and others.

In collaboration with teams from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and several American, Canadian and South African universities, Stewart has been digging at two sites at Dor for 20 years. These teams have uncovered more than 100,000 artifacts, close to 90 percent of them pottery, but also sculptures, figurines, lamps, coins, rings and other items representing all strata of society and dating back to the Iron Age.

One find was a headless statue of the Greek winged goddess Victory, together with fragments of a demolished Greek temple. Another was an elaborate and intricate mosaic floor, probably designed to help establish a party atmosphere in a banquet room. The mosaic - made with 10 to 15 cubes per square centimeter - features a masked young man from the Greek comic theater, wearing a fantastic party hat and set amid garlands of fruits and flowers.

"You have a party animal here," said Stewart, gesturing toward a photo that shows a character known as the second young, wavy-haired man.

"He spends much, much too much time indoors partying, likes the girls," he said, "and tends to wake up in the morning with a hangover. That's why his face is white, and that's why we thought it was female to begin with, because it is so pale and its lips are rouged. Well, they're rouged because he goes to the 'Black and White Ball' every night!"

Stewart called the mosaic "high end, absolutely top quality Greek work" that rivals anything in Alexandria from the same period.

The temple, mosaic and Victory were found in pits where they may have been discarded in a revival of Jewish traditionalism around 100 B.C.

It may be that some of the Phoenicians, Jews and others living in Dor simply developed a fascination or a fondness for Greek culture and embarked on an importing spree, Stewart said. Yet, around the time of Alexander's conquests in the region, there was no increase in Hellenization.

Instead, the process seems to have stagnated or even - for a time - gone into reverse, he said.

"Did our little town stand aloof from these developments?" Stewart asked. "Or were they purely political and military? Were the early Hellenistic kings only interested in raising money and fighting each other, essentially limiting Hellenization to the major centers? We don't know."

But Stewart and his team hope to find out.

The researchers will investigate what has been uncovered that reflects the efforts of inhabitants of Dor in adopting Greek culture, resisting it, or combining it with their own to form something new. They will look at these interactions in terms of material culture at various levels of society, throughout time.

"The same people may have used local-type storage jars that they knew and loved at the same time as drinking from Greek-style symposium cups," Stewart said.

Directing the Israeli part of the project will be Professor Ilan Sharon, an archaeologist and statistician from Hebrew University in Jerusalem with expertise in computer science as well as the archaeology of Israel and the Near East in the first millennium B.C. He has developed the immense data bases required for such an investigation and will direct the computer analysis.

The researchers will construct matrices reflecting the estimated chronology of the architecture and artifacts in each area of the site in order to see how they relate to each other. They will be able to develop a more refined chronology, and artifacts of particular interest can be stratigraphically plotted and scanned for patterns of distribution. Maps of the distribution will be developed to help to show who lived where, and when.

"Different areas of the site, as always, might have been occupied by different folks," said Stewart. "In Berkeley, you're going to get a different material culture in the hills than you are down on the flats or in East Oakland."

Ultimately, the Dor research project is expected to produce at least one book and a dissertation.

Without a team, the work would take a lifetime, said Stewart.

Also participating will be Sarah Stroup, an assistant professor at the University of Washington and a specialist in Hellenistic and Roman literature and culture. Stroup received her Ph.D. from UC Berkeley in 2001 and has worked previously with Stewart at Dor. The other two members of the investigative team will be Stewart's assistant director, Allen Estes, an Assyriologist and archaeologist who also earned his Ph.D. at UC Berkeley in 1997, and John Berg, the site architect and stratigrapher.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/01/2010 07:04 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
NICK THE GREEK:

explain the etymology of the town name EDESSA. hint: look at my last post.

and also, quit SPAMMING. but First, explain the etymology of EDESSA (p.s. it isn't a "lost" Homeric word. see my last post).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 221865
Dude, stop the silliness, the Slavic peoples and their language belong to the Satem group of languages.

Greek [Macedonian] and the Latin languages belong to the Centum group.

Get real dude and stop this silly pretentious and sometimes theatrical farce of a name dispute.

Stop insulting the Greeks dude, you messed up and the whole academic world is focused on your jaw dropping eyes wide open silliness.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 07:05 PM
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World Academia shall challenge anything and everything which belongs outside the boundaries of the mainstream norm.

Academic clout and dynamism shall protect and defend the virtues of recorded and established academic reference points, ancient European history shall not be revised in order to accomodate poor, ill thought out, flawed political considerations or to appease Slavic or Turkic pseudo historians and rogue scholar's.
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694


It does accomadate. I see nothing on strategy. He be came a great general because rules changed when he had an issue. Whats his face sent out a bunch on slaves with daggers that would throw them selves down in front of they cargeing horses and stab up words. It would work just about every one on the battle field. There's like little to no histery on that.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 07:09 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
alexander was a black man. That is why he was buried in Africa!
Nick the Greek (OP)
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
[link to macedonia-evidence.org]

362 Accredited Scholar's of Repute Endorse and Support Alexander the Greats Greek Hellenic Credentials.


To Goran and Mustafa.......get over it!
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alexander was a black man. That is why he was buried in Africa!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 927512

And gay
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Olympias his mother said she was impregnated by a giant black snake.

Alexander told Ptolemy that he would like to be buried at the temple of his Father in Libya (africa)
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Jozko Šavli, Matej Bor, Ivan Tomazic.
VENETI: First Builders of European Community:
Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestors of Slovenes.

UPDATE ON VENETI
by Charles Bryant-Abraham, Ph. D.
Fellow, The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research
Jerusalem, Israel

After submission of my review of VENETI to Sir Rodney Hartwell in June 1998, I came across a book in Athens of potential interest to the subject of Proto - (West) Slavic presence in the Balkans He Glossa tes Makedonias, he Archaia Makedonike kai he Pseudonyme Glossa ton Skopion, "The Language of Macedonia, Old Macedonian and the so-called Language of the Skopljites" (written in modern Greek with citations in classical Greek and in Latin), by G. Khatsidakis, et al. (Athens, Greece: Olkos, 1993).

I will not review the book at this time for our Greek-reading Augustans, other than to indicate broadly my impression that the seven contributing writers have built a well-reasoned argument for the essential Hellenism of Alexander the Great. One cannot, however, avoid suspicion of a hidden political agenda to head off any future South Slavic irredentism for the Macedonian-speaking hinterland of Thessalonica. Unlike Veneti the book presents no linguistic evidence to shore up its premises and conclusions.

Granted, as A. I Thabores correctly points out (p. 194) in his chapter,"He Hellenike Dialektos ton Archaion Makedonon kai ta Semerina Neo-Hellenica Idiomata tes Makedonias (kai tes Alles Boreias Helladas)," "The Greek Dialect of the Ancient Macedonians and the Modern New Greek Dialects of Macedonia (and the Rest of Northern Greece)":

". . . the names of their gods, the myths and the mythical heroes, their personal names, the monumental and place names and local items of their dialect ... are all essentially Greek." [my translation] Yet I would query whether this might not be reflective of an on-going, pervasive Greek cultural influence in the frontier zone between Greece and the Balkan peoples reaching back to the pre-heroic age.

The passage that caught my eye and that I would bring to the attention of our fellow Augustan, Dr. Jozko Šavli, and his co-authors of Veneti, Prof. Matej Bor and Father Ivan Tomazic, occurs in Anna Panagiotou's study (pp. 187-188), "He Glossa ton Archaion Epigraphon tes Makedonias," "'The Language of the Ancient Inscriptions of Macedonia." I urge Dr. Savli and his colleagues to reexamine the known Macedonian inscriptions -- there are some 6,000 of themthrough the prism of Slovenian diachronic dialectology, and I first pose the challenging question here in The Augustan: Though thoroughly assimilated into the Greek culture and language through the education of his teacher, Aristotle, can it be that Alexander the Great himself emerged into world history from a Proto-(West) Slavic, i.e., Venetic, family background?

I translate Ms. Panagiotou's reference to a passage in Curtius(2) Hist. Alex. Magni Maced., IV, I11.4.:
... which narrates another event of the kingdom of Alexander... considered as an indication that the Macedonian language was not a Greek dialect, but a different language: the general Philotas was accused by one of his compatriots of not feeling ashamed, " . . .

Macedonatus, homines linguae suae per interpretem audire,"
". . . born a Macedonian, to hear the men of his language through an interpreter,"
i.e., according to this passage, Philotas had need of translators in order to understand the mother tongue.
Yet in a curious way, this passage comes to contradict another by the same author in the same document (VI.9.34-36.) Alexander asks if Philotas will speak in the language of their fathers,
"... Macedones ... de te indicaturi sunt, quero an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus," "... the Macedonians who will judge you, I ask if you will use the language of (our) fathers with them,"
and elicited the response:

"Praeter Macedonas ... plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percep-turus arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus,"

"(Above and) beyond the Macedonians ... there are many present whom, I feel, will more easily grasp the things I say if I use the same language you did, for no other reason, I believe, than that your speech might be understood by many."

This explanation caused the angry remarks of Alexander that Philotas neglects to speak in the language of their fathers:

"Ecquid videtis adeo etiam sermonis patrii Philotan toedere? Solus quippe fastidit eum discere. Sed dicat sane utcumque ei cordi est, dum memineritis aeque ilium a nostro more quam sermone abhorrere,"

"Have you ever seen Philotas reject the language of (our) fathers heretofore? Indeed, he alone is averse to learning it. Let him then say, however, it is in his heart, since you will remember that he is opposed to our custom(s) as well as our language."

Ms. Panagiotou's article proceeds to attempt to explain this passage as referring to a northern Hellenic dialect so greatly at variance with the contemporary Koine that it might just as well have been a foreign language. Her attempt falls short of convincing.

Now, the work plan before us is not complex. The Macedonian inscriptions, must be scrutinized anew by the trained and sensitive eyes of Slavicists of the stature of the authors of Veneti. Let this task be undertaken at the earliest possible moment.


ENDNOTES:
Charles Bryant-Abraham, PhD, Fellow, The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research Jerusalem, Israel
Cf John C. Rolfe. Quintus Curtius (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1962.)

Rolfe states (p. xviii): "Curtius's principal source is Clitarchus, son of Dinon (Pliny, NH. x (49) 136), who accompanied Alexander's expedition and wrote a highly coloured account of it ... Curtius used Clitarchus in a changed and contaminated form, perhaps through Timagenes, whom he mentions in viii. 5.21 in connexion with Clitarchus and Ptolemy ... He differs with Clitarchus in ix. 5.21 and follows Ptolemy, censuring Clitarchus for carelessness or credulity..."

Rolfe adds (p. 3od): "The Historiae seem to be the work of a rhetorician rather than of an historian. One of his principle aims was to insert in his work brilliant speeches and romantic incidents. Doubtless he wished to give a correct account, but his imperfect knowledge of history and geography led him into many errors.

Rolfe is correct in pointing out (p. xxiv) that the chancellery language of Macedonia was Greek: "For some generations the court language was Attic Greek." Yet, even conservatively admitting constraints on Curtius' accuracy, we must presume a kernel veracity for the passages in question. That presumption is sufficient to warrant reexamination of the Macedonian inscriptions by Venetologists.
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Third Philippic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Third Philippic was delivered by the prominent Athenian statesman and orator, Demosthenes, in 341 BC. It constitutes the third of the four philippics.

Contents [hide]
1 Historical background
2 Content of the speech
3 Assessments
4 See also
5 References

[edit] Historical background
In 343 BC, the Macedonian arms were carried across Epirus and a year later Philip turned his military activities towards Thrace.[1] When the Macedonia army approached Chersonese, the Athenians got anxious about the future of their colony. An Athenian general, Diopeithes, ravaged the maritime district of Thrace, an offensive resulting in Philip's rage. The King sent a letter of remonstrance to Athens, demanding the immediate withdrawal of the Athenian troops from Cardia, which was occupied by the Macedonian army.[2] Because of this turbulence, ecclesia convened and Demosthenes delivered On the Chersonese, convincing the Athenians, who would not recall Diopeithes.

[edit] Content of the speech
Within the same year, Demosthenes delivered the Third Philippic. Putting forth all the power of his eloquence, he demanded resolute action against Philip and called for a burst of energy from the Athenian people. Macedon and Athens were already de facto belligerent parties, since the Athenians were financing Diopeithes,[3] who was launching attacks against allied cities. Most importantly, Philip was the first who violated the terms of the Peace of Philocrates and Athens was just defending its legitimate rights.

[edit] Assessments
The Third Philippic is considered the best of Demosthenes' political orations,[4] because of its passionate and evocative style.[5] From the moment he delivered the Third Philippic, Demosthenes imposed himself as the most influential politician of Athens and the suzerain of the Athenian political arena. He takes the offensive and devitalizes the "pacific" and pro-Macedonian faction of Aeschines. In the Third Philippic, the unchallengeable and passionate leader of the anti-Macedonian faction gives the signal for the Athenian uprising against Philip.

--from wikipedia

------------------------------------------------------------


THIRD PHILLIPPIC -- the relevant passage:


[31] But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and squandered what he had no right to, heavens! how much more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave.

Demosthenes. Demosthenes with an English translation by J. H. Vince, M.A. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1930.
The Annenberg CPB/Project provided support for entering this text
[link to www.perseus.tufts.edu]
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gómez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martínez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es

ABSTRACT

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

PMID: 11260506 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


[link to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
ONLY ONE MACEDONIA

MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS -- NOT GREEKS!


let's try some EVIDENCE, shall we...


Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).


Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.
[link to www.eupedia.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 221865




BUMP
Halcyon Dayz, FCD
Contrarian's Contrarian

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04/01/2010 08:13 PM

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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
These Greeks most be a really insecure lot if they are bothered by what another country wants to call itself.

In the absence of Academia, people are free to say and do as they please, but there are limits. Without Academic Reference Points,common sense constraints and parameter's, people are free to:
[...]
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694

That's not how academe works.

Real scholars argue all the time.

And the whole notion of Freedom of Thought and the Freedom of Speech seems to have evaded you.

How ungreek.
book

And who wants to be associated with Alexander of Macedon anyway?
It's not as if he's one of the good guys.

He conquered a decrepit decadent shell of an empire and then drank himself to death out of boredom.

What a guy!

Last Edited by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on 04/01/2010 08:16 PM
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.


Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
04/01/2010 08:39 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Dear President Obama,

We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.

On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.

We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: [link to macedonia-evidence.org]

The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia.

Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.

We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles - the quintessential Greek hero - on their coins.

Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.

Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?

The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.

We call upon you, Mr. President, to help - in whatever ways you deem appropriate - the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.


[link to macedonia-evidence.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 08:47 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
most Macedonian males today (about 75%) belong to genes from the I and R1a haplogroups. BOTH THESE GROUPS OF GENES ARE NOW though to have already been present in the Balkans over 4000 years ago, proving our male ancestors have an ancient and very long history in the balkans. why is this important? because some historians maintain that today's slav-speakers did not reach the balkans until about 600 ad. but, the GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE is undermining this claim and is proving today's Macedonians as the successors of the ancient Macedonians. With this GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE, greece is losing its main argument and the position of the Macedonians is becoming stronger.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/01/2010 08:59 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
hmmm...........

The Kalash

I’ve been reading about the fascinating Kalash tribe in the Hindu-Kush area of Northern Pakistan. Their background and history further intensified my desire to travel through Central Asia, all the –istans in particular. For the most part, the history of the Kalash people remains obscure and controversial. According to some scholars, the Kalash people are direct descendants of Alexander the Great’s soldiers. This view however is unsubstantiated and most scholars trace the history of the Kalash back to the Indo-Aryan migration/invasion in 1500 B.C. No matter where they came from and when they settled in the mountain villages of the Hindu-Kush, the light skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes of many Kalash people provide an interesting evidence to their Caucasian origins.

------------------------------------------



The ancient Macedonians are the fathers of the modern Slav-speaking Macedonians:


Chalas = mud (ancient Macedonian)
Kal = mud


Connected is the word "Kalesh" which means "Dark-skinned" in modern Macedonian and is also the name of the people who claim descendancy from Alexander´s army, the "Kalash" tribe in Pakistan



note: i believe 'kalash' means the same thing in their own language):

Here's a genetic report showing the closest genetic neighbors to the Kalash are the Yugoslavians (of which Macedonia was a part until 1991, and who also speak the same language as Macedonian, ie Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian etc are related to modern Macedonian). Not only that, but other Slavic contries are also close, virtually clinching this argument (Note - i don't believe the link works, but the report can be found at archive.org, or should at least be in a genetic journal)


HUMAN RACES CALCULATOR
[Home Page] [Calculator Menu] [Guestbook]
Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Frequency in Selected 69 Eurasian Populations

View Profile
Select Population:

Pakistani Kalash CHART
Population hg1 hg2 hg3 hg4 hg7 hg8 hg9 hg10 hg12 hg13 hg16 hg21 hg22 hg26 hg28
Pakistani Kalash 10 39 19 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 25

DISTANCE FROM Pakistani Kalash
Population Distance
1 Yugoslavian 30
2 Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs 30
3 Bulgarian 32
4 Northern Swedish 32
5 Ukranian 33
6 Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins 33
7 Romanian 33
8 Georgian 34
9 Belarusian 35
10 Norwegian 35
11 Gotlander 35
12 Slovenian 36
13 Pakistani Makrani Negroid 36
14 Pakistani Pathan 37
15 Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars 37
16 Armenian 38
17 Hungarian 39
18 Chuvash 39
19 Pakistani Burusho 40
20 Czech 40
21 Pakistani Baluch 42
22 Turkish 42
23 Dutch 43
24 Pakistani Balti 43
25 Pakistani Brahui 44
26 Sardinian 45
27 Muslim Kurds 45
28 Icelandic 46
29 Slovakian 46
30 Pakistani Makrani Baluch 46
31 Greek 46
32 German 46
33 Pakistani Sindhi 47
34 Russian 47
35 Bavarian 49
36 Danish 49
37 Cypriot 50
38 Polish 50
39 Pakistani Parsi 51
40 Saami 51
41 French 52
42 Sephardic Jews 52
43 Estonian 53
44 Kurdish Jews 54
45 East Anglian 55
46 Latvian 55
47 Italian 55
48 Ossetian 58
49 Ashkenazi Jews 58
50 Mari 58
51 Lithuanian 62
52 Indian Uttar Pradesh Muslims 63
53 Pakistani Kashmiri 63
54 Southern Portuguese 63
55 Belgian 63
56 Northern Portuguese 66
57 Palestinian Arabs 67
58 Finnish 70
59 Spanish 71
60 Western Scottish 72
61 Bedouin 74
62 Pakistani Hazara 76
63 Algerian 77
64 Basque 80
65 Scottish 80
66 Irish 82
67 Cornish 82
68 Northern African 91

Source: ´Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language.´ Table 1.
Rosser et al. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1526–1543, 2000

[link]
web/20021104200524/
www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?d bname=ychroms&popid=59
pauldamo
User ID: 931775
Australia
04/01/2010 09:40 PM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
i thought he was from Macedonia,which country did his boyfriend come from,was it Egypt.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 932216
Australia
04/02/2010 04:19 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
LOL at the slavs trying to claim Alexander.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 927512
United States
04/02/2010 04:40 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
most Macedonian males today (about 75%) belong to genes from the I and R1a haplogroups. BOTH THESE GROUPS OF GENES ARE NOW though to have already been present in the Balkans over 4000 years ago, proving our male ancestors have an ancient and very long history in the balkans. why is this important? because some historians maintain that today's slav-speakers did not reach the balkans until about 600 ad. but, the GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE is undermining this claim and is proving today's Macedonians as the successors of the ancient Macedonians. With this GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE, greece is losing its main argument and the position of the Macedonians is becoming stronger.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 221865



maybe they just adopted the slavic language? People of Ireland are only 10% celtic but they speak a celtic language. People of England are only 20% anglo saxon but they speak English (anglo saxon). Language is not always a good indication of race. Is a guatamalan Indian who speaks spanish a spaniard?

Think outside the box guys.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 932231
United States
04/02/2010 04:51 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
SouthSlav---->tomato<----Alexander the Great, Slavic Version.
Made in YugoSlavia.

______________________________________whatever
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 883973
Greece
04/02/2010 04:58 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
the name is george soros, and that motherfucker making billions out of situations like that, by purverting and twisting history but the time is near for these guys [link to www.youtube.com]
ESSETAI HMAP!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 407634
New Zealand
04/02/2010 05:04 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
alot of Serbs and Macedonians look very similar to Greeks and vice versa. Also some Serbs and Macedonians look more like Russians or Polish and not reallly like Greeks at all. Throw in alot of Turkish mix which is quite apparent in Serb and Macedonian music and you see the south slavs are'nt completely pure slav at all but speak the language.

The ancient macedonian genes must be spread all over the Balkans now imo
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/02/2010 07:30 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
These Greeks most be a really insecure lot if they are bothered by what another country wants to call itself.


In the absence of Academia, people are free to say and do as they please, but there are limits. Without Academic Reference Points,common sense constraints and parameter's, people are free to:
[...]

That's not how academe works.

Real scholars argue all the time.

And the whole notion of Freedom of Thought and the Freedom of Speech seems to have evaded you.

How ungreek.
book

And who wants to be associated with Alexander of Macedon anyway?
It's not as if he's one of the good guys.

He conquered a decrepit decadent shell of an empire and then drank himself to death out of boredom.

What a guy!
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD
Hey Dutch dude, Academia does not revise or chop and change established recorded ancient European history at the behest of flawed theories Ideas and conjectures.

Academia keeps within the boundaries of the mainstream norms. History get's Re-written only when there is Consensus
amongst the International Academic Fraternity, the hard facts and material evidence must be Overwhelmingly sufficient in order for these world scholar's to act.

History shall not be Re-written to appease Slavdoms Rogue Scholar's, Pseudo-Historians and Specialist Propagandist's.

Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians belong to the Greek Hellenic Collective of Peoples.

Today's Greek Hellenic peoples are the Sole and Legal modern Representative of that Hellenic Legacy. No Other modern people on this Planet are Closer to the ancient Macedonians than today's modern Greeks.

Don't be Ignorant of our Common European history Dutch dude!

Slavic and Turkic Scholar's can come up with as many theories Ideas and Conjectures as they like......it means Nothing to World Academia [The World Body of Knowledge].
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 419649
United States
04/02/2010 07:50 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Mecedonians are Slavic silly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12306

just because i's slavic now doesnt mean it was slavic then
Ostria

User ID: 931616
Greece
04/02/2010 08:04 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Then I guess you can find texts and coins from the Macedonian Kingdom in this language and their gods were some special macedonian ones and not the ones all the Greeks had.
And also when Alexander conquered the lands from anatolia to persia, egypt and the middle east, the formal language became this language and not the Greek one. So I have to conclude that the NT gospels were also written in this language and not the Greek one. Right!

peace
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931599
Croatia
04/02/2010 08:05 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The contemporary greek nation is not helenic greek nation, they even do not speak same language... modern greek language is so much different from ancient greek....
modern greek language was established in 1948, before that they all speak diferent language... modern greek are product of 2000 years of rape by Romans, Slavs and Otoman Turks...

if we study haplogrups of europe [link to en.wikipedia.org] find that all nations of europe are similar
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 919390
United States
04/02/2010 08:10 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Well, wherever he was from he had the best ragtime band.

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