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Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav

 
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/02/2010 08:17 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
most Macedonian males today (about 75%) belong to genes from the I and R1a haplogroups. BOTH THESE GROUPS OF GENES ARE NOW though to have already been present in the Balkans over 4000 years ago, proving our male ancestors have an ancient and very long history in the balkans. why is this important? because some historians maintain that today's slav-speakers did not reach the balkans until about 600 ad. but, the GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE is undermining this claim and is proving today's Macedonians as the successors of the ancient Macedonians. With this GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE, greece is losing its main argument and the position of the Macedonians is becoming stronger.



maybe they just adopted the slavic language? People of Ireland are only 10% celtic but they speak a celtic language. People of England are only 20% anglo saxon but they speak English (anglo saxon). Language is not always a good indication of race. Is a guatamalan Indian who speaks spanish a spaniard?

Think outside the box guys.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 927512
Slavicized Indigenous Autochthonous peoples, this is what mean.....?

Slavic theories [The Amalgamation Theory] where they stay withing established Mainstream Norms and Accept the fact that the Slavic tribes entered the Balkan Peninsular in the 6th Century A.D. and mixed [[by force][free will]] with the Macedonian Greeks, therefeore amalgamating with the Native Indigenous Macedonians entitles them to Claim the history and the heritage of the ancient Macedonians of antiquity. This is Perverse, a gross Distortion, a Corruption of the established recorded version of ancient European History.

The Slavs, along with the Avars and Bulgars Raped and Pillaged their way into Greek Imperial teritory [Eastern Roman Empire]. A cursory look at the Thematic System of Government employed by the Byzantine Emperors enables the learned and scholarly peoples of the world to conclude that Slavs mixed [Amagalmated] with "Romioi" peoples of the Empire which may have included an already mixed bunch of peoples of Indigenous Stock plus Romanized stock.
Consider this Amagalmation:

1.....Hellenes + Hellenized Thracians + Hellenized Illyrians + Hellenized Latins.

2.....Romans + Latinized Hellenes* + Romanized Thracians + Romanized Illyrians.

Slavs did not mix with the Hellenic Macedonians alone. As far as the Amalgamation Theory goes...Incoming Slavic Invader settler's mixed [[by force][free will]] with any number of combinations of the above Eastern "Romioi" [Byzantine] peoples which were already a mixed bunch and which may also have included some peoples from Macedonian Stock.

In Plain Words and Simple Language......Slavs mixed with the Greek Speaking peoples of the Eastern Roman Empire [Byzantium]. This does NOT give modern FYRoMians the right to claim the history and the heritage of the ancient Macedonians of Antiquity. It is Greece that has recognized Historic rights to the Macedonian legacy.
Ostria

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Greece
04/02/2010 08:19 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The contemporary greek nation is not helenic greek nation, they even do not speak same language... modern greek language is so much different from ancient greek....
modern greek language was established in 1948, before that they all speak diferent language... modern greek are product of 2000 years of rape by Romans, Slavs and Otoman Turks...

if we study haplogrups of europe [link to en.wikipedia.org] find that all nations of europe are similar
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 931599


It is exactly the same language, just modernized. This is why we can understand most the words in the ancient texts without checking the dictionaries.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 08:27 AM
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The contemporary greek nation is not helenic greek nation, they even do not speak same language... modern greek language is so much different from ancient greek....
modern greek language was established in 1948, before that they all speak diferent language... modern greek are product of 2000 years of rape by Romans, Slavs and Otoman Turks...

if we study haplogrups of europe [link to en.wikipedia.org] find that all nations of europe are similar
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 931599
Croatian dude, stop this silliness dude!

Denying the Greekness of the Macedonians both ancient and modern is an Insult.....not only to the modern Greeks but to world academia [The world body of knowledge].

The difference between real Greek Macedonians and FYRoMians is this:

Modern Greeks honour exalt and glorify the achievements and the accomplishments of the Hellenic peoples through the ages.

In conrast modern FYRoMians Ridicule Humiliate and Insult the Hellenes both past and present....Hellenism for them is a Loaded word and they show us their utter Contempt for all things Hellenic.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavians Envy Resent and Despise all things Greek Hellenic, they exist to Ridicule and Humiliate modern Greeks.....and that is a punishable Offense.

The Academic world plus the Political world can see right through FYRoM's Pretentious stance.

Macedonia(n) by deception is Not Macedonia(n) at all!

Macedonia Void of it's Hellenic Elements is Not Macedonia at all!

Thats the difference!
Ostria

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04/02/2010 08:29 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
....
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694


Ftanei e? As min ginoume kourastikoi.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 08:40 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
....


Ftanei e? As min ginoume kourastikoi.
 Quoting: Ostria
Ostria......


Einai Kathikon mas na ekpaithevsoume tin agnoia kai tin apatheia!
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 08:44 AM
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Macedonia void of it's hellenic elements is not Macedonia at all.

Macedonia(n) by deception is not Macedonia(n) at all.

It would be false and foolish to claim otherwise!

Macedonian's past and present have always been Greek Hellenic people. Macedonian's Greekness can be attested at every Academic Disciplines.

Macedonia is Greek Hellenic at all the academic disciplines.....for example:

History: Language
Liguistics:
Literature:
Performing Arts:
Philosophy: Religion:
Visual Arts:
Anthropology:
Archaeology:
Cultural Studies:
Geography:
Architecture and Design:
Education:
Law:
Military Sciences:
Arts and Sciences:

Is there an academic discipline where the Macedonians both past and present portrayed themselves as something Other then Greek Hellenic......No I didn't think so!

Mistakes could and should be rectified purely out of Respect for Academia [The World Body of Knowledge].

FYRoM was recognized as RoM in haste and under false pretenses. The Greeks were shafted by the American administration of George W Bush. Academic and Political correctness were shelved in order to teach the Greeks a lesson.

In that American administration's eyes, the Greeks were seen as being mavericks, following their own political agenda and not seen to be part of the team [Nato].

The decision to recognize FYRoM as RoM was Wrong at every Academic Discipline. That [political] decision was a Mistake, a big Blunder and it shall go down in recorded history as such with the names of those responsible alongside that Political Mistake.
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 08:56 AM
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The Hellenes [ancient] were the most resiliant and dominant group in southeastern europe. Other groups succumbed to the hellenic culture simply because it was the most resiliant and the most dominant.

[link to www.pnas.org]
The Greek Hellenic genetic signature is clearly represented in the genetic geography of Map4.

Genes Peoples and Languages. L Luca Cavalli-Sforza
[link to www.pnas.org]
There is a little bit of Greek in all southeastern Europeans.

Re-hellenization......All peoples residing in those geographic regions compromizing the Greek Hellenic [expansion] colonization of antiquity could Re-Hellenize if they wanted to, and that would be consistant with and compatible to the genetic geography presented to us in the links above by the worlds leading authority on Genes Languages and Peoples. L L Cavalli Sforza!

The Greek Hellenic Genetic signature is still dominant and resiliant in those same places the ancients dwelt from millenia ago!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931599
Croatia
04/02/2010 08:57 AM
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so if modern greeks are ancient greeks where was greek state during 2000 years of rape? Helenic Greeks are extinct nation.
There were no greek state there was Roman empire and Otoman Turk empire....
And than in 1900 there were civil war in Otoman Turk empire and one group of turks commited genocide over onother groop turks and to differ from each other the group that commited genocide started to call them self Greeks.... they could easily started to call them self Atlantians or Lemurians or Tojans or Mongols there is no diference because they were just Turks...

So now we have Turks delusionaly calling them sellf Greeks and hating Turks ... LOL
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 09:22 AM
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It has become apparent to modern politicians that a crystal clear definative answer must be sought, in order to distinguish and clarify Authentic [Greek] Macedonians from other's that just want to use that Macedonian Name for Self Identification purposes.

So here is a Plain and Simple Guide to who is a Real Authentic [Greek] Macedonian.

Question....Who is a Macedonian ?

Answer....A person of Greek Hellenic Stock who originates from or has ancestral links to the ancient historic [Greek] region of Macedonia.

Question....What is a Macedonian ?

Answer....A person of Greek Hellenic Stock, Originating from the historic ancient [Greek] region of Macedonia.

Question....Why is it Only Greek Hellenic People can be Real [Authentic] Macedonians ?

Answer....Because the Original Authentic Macedonians were from Greek Hellenic Stock.

Question....When did Macedonians become Greek ?

Answer....Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic People, since the beginning, from the dawn of time untill the present.

Question....How did the ancient Macedonians show their Greekness ?

Answer....The Ancient Macedonians left their Calling Card wherever they went, as if They Knew that one day in the far and distant future, their Greekness might be questioned, so they took out an insurance policy, wherever the Ancient Macedonians went they left Their Calling Card......Carved into Stone for the Whole World to See Their Greekness.

So there we have it, the Who, the What, the Why, the When
the How!

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people since the beginning, since time immemorial!

Macedonia(n)...when this word is used it refer's to Greek Hellenic People by Default......courtesy of World Academia [The World Body of Knowledge].
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 09:29 AM
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so if modern greeks are ancient greeks where was greek state during 2000 years of rape? Helenic Greeks are extinct nation.
There were no greek state there was Roman empire and Otoman Turk empire....
And than in 1900 there were civil war in Otoman Turk empire and one group of turks commited genocide over onother groop turks and to differ from each other the group that commited genocide started to call them self Greeks.... they could easily started to call them self Atlantians or Lemurians or Tojans or Mongols there is no diference because they were just Turks...

So now we have Turks delusionaly calling them sellf Greeks and hating Turks ... LOL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 931599
Croatian dude, stop the Ingnorance dude and educate yourself about modern Greeks and their Hellenic legacy.

Stop Insulting modern Greeks, Stop Ridiculing us and Humiliating us, there is a heavy price to pay for that, og Goran!

Just pick up an Encyclopaedia dude, or read these carefully selected words for people like you!


The Greek Character, having formed over millenia is best summarized as being multi faceted. Most people would firstly consider Greeks as being Mediterraneans, but theres more.....

1....Mediterranean: Greeks could be clustered together with Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the French, within the context of a greater Greaco-Roman civilization.

2....Western European: since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization.

3....Eastern European: since Greeks baptized christianized and civilized the Slavic Tribes into the Greek Orthodox Religion.

4....Middle-Eastern: since the Greek expansion into Asia ensured prolonged ties with the Oriental Eastern Cultures.

5....Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this term, Greeks prefer Southeastern European.... anyway, a Balkan Identity similar to Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians exist's. There are common elements, contributions from the Eastern Roman Empire and from the Ottoman Empire bears testament to shared attributes.

The Greeks have always been an International People since time immemorial!
The Greek Character is Multifaceted, drawing in, embedded experiances from 5 different geographical locations.
The Greeks were never Restricted to one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border's in ancient times.
Greece in ancient times could be visualized as spanning from the far West of Spain.....to as far East as Georgia.

There was never a country called Greece in ancient times, instead there were Greeks inhabiting Many regions....from Spain to Georgia.
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 09:31 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
wow, just found this. geneticists analyzed ancient dna found in modern turkey and found a great match with modern people from Bosnia, Macedonia and northern greece. They have a strong indication these people may have been brough to turkey by the Macedonian Seleucid empire! We are closing in......the GENETIC BODY OF EVIDENCE GROWS! sorry greece.....


------------------------------------------------------



mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is dna passed down by mother to daughter. Is this report strongly hinting that dna of female human remains is from settlers of the Macedonian Seleucids (one of the four successor kingdoms to Alexander the Great) to Sagalassos, Turkey, and has been most closely matched to modern-day females from Bosnia, Macedonia and northern Greece???? IF SO, we have a DIRECT CONNECTION to the ancient Macedonians!

Genetic insight into an ancient population from Anatolia: first data from the archaeological site of Sagalassos

Human bone and tooth samples from 57 individuals (dated between the 11th and 13th century AD by AMS carbon dating of human bones) belonging to the same low social status population grouphave been so far genetically analyzed. Extraction of DNA and amplification of the two hypervariablesegments (HVS-I and HVS-II) of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region were successful andreproducible in 28 out the 57 individuals. The sample as a whole is characterized by a typical West-Eurasian mtDNA variation, with the haplogroup H being the most represented (25%). Comparative analyses with more than 4,300 sequences from eurasian populations points to a high genetic affinity with Southeastern Mediterranean. More particularly an affinity is observed at the genealogical level with mtDNA lineages from the Balkan area, more in detail Macedonia, Northern Greece and Bosnia.This might represent a genetic signature of the settlements installed by the Seleucides (330-150 B.P.) from Macedonia in Northern Pisidia. No contribution of Central Asian mtDNA pool has been so far observed


Claudio Ottoni1,3, Nancy Vanderheyden1, François-Xavier Ricaut3,4, RonnyDecorte1,2, Marc Waelkens51Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium; 2Center forHuman Genetics, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium; 3Center for Archaeological Sciences, KU Leuven,Leuven, Belgium; 4Laboratoire d´Anthropobiologie, Université de Toulouse, Toulouse, France;5Department of Archaeology, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium

[link to www.cnrs.fr]

cache: [link to 74.125.93.132]
Anonymous Coward
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Croatia
04/02/2010 09:44 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Helenic Greeks are extinct nation.
Taken for slaves by Roman empire and Otoman Turk empire...
For 2000 years there were no spoken greek word in territory now called Helenic republic.. no one called himself greek

Greeks are modern reinveniton, artificial nation like USofA, and there is no bad thing in that except hate towards original nations like Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians...
That is just low self esteam knowing the rape history and artificial origin...
but it will pas away with time, when new greek nation gets away from adolescense and bullying of original nations...
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 09:58 AM
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The idea that Alexander the Great was something other than Greek Hellenic is daft, plain silly. FYRoM's Slavs have disgraced the rest of the Slavic world by searching for their origins and ethno roots outside the Realms of Slavdom. Slavic peoples are proud of their Slavic heritage, why aren't they [FYRoMians] proud of their's.

The whole point is to stick with the mainstream norm, history should not be revised altered or rewritten on the basis of unfounded theories ideas or conjectures.

FYRoM's rogue scholar's pseudo historians and specialist propagandist's have brainwashed the minds of Slavdoms youth
beyond repair.

The international academic fraternity support and endorse the mainstream view that alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians were of Greek Hellenic stock, an important integral part of the Greek Hellenic collective of peoples as a whole.

Slavs entered eastern roman empire [Byzantium] imperial teritory during the Slavic incursions of the 6th century A.D.

Any diversions from the above recorded and established mainstream view shall not be entertained. Theories Ideas and Conjectures remain just that...without the academic seal / stamp of approval Slavic theories mean nothing!
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 10:05 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
ATG's Mass Wedding At Susa: Only One greek


ATG's token greek:


and only ATG's most trusted and loyal greek, who would eventually meet his doom for not being Macedonian



Another indicator of the relatively high status of Eumenes under Alexander is the fact that the former was the only Greek involved in the mass-wedding staged at Susa in 324. In Schäfer's view, Eumenes, unlike many of the other grooms, may have subsequently preserved his marriage with his wife Artonis because of her noble Persian heritage: such a match may have allowed Eumenes to build stronger ties of loyalty with his oriental troops in the power-struggle following Alexander's death (pp. 47-49).




Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2003.06.30
Christoph Schäfer, Eumenes von Kardia und der Kampf um die Macht im Alexanderreich. Frankfurt: Buchverlag Marthe Clauss, 2002. Pp. 194. ISBN 3-934040-06-03. EUR 50.00.

Reviewed by Chris Epplett, History, University of Lethbridge (christopher.epplett@uleth.ca)

-------------------------------------------------
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 10:05 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Helenic Greeks are extinct nation.
Taken for slaves by Roman empire and Otoman Turk empire...
For 2000 years there were no spoken greek word in territory now called Helenic republic.. no one called himself greek

Greeks are modern reinveniton, artificial nation like USofA, and there is no bad thing in that except hate towards original nations like Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians...
That is just low self esteam knowing the rape history and artificial origin...
but it will pas away with time, when new greek nation gets away from adolescense and bullying of original nations...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 931599
Croatian dude, stop this hubris, you are not original people to southeastern Europe, you are invader settler's, just like the Turks and the Bulgarians.

Slavonic peoples have been noted under many different Tribal names, spanning many different time frames and era's, the one thing academia is 100% Certain of......Slavs were Never Ever known as Macedonians. Macedonians are Greeks just like Spartans are Greeks and just like Athenians are Greeks.
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 10:10 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2004.02.13

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Waldemar Heckel, J.C. Yardley, Alexander the Great. Historical Sources in Translation. Blackwell Sourcebooks in Ancient History.. Malden, MA: Blackwell Publishing, 2004. Pp. xxx, 342. ISBN 0-631-22820-9. $64.95.


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Reviewed by Jona Lendering (adsl294196@tiscali.nl)

(note: Jona Lendering is the creator of [link to www.livius.org)]

Several people at Gaugamela must have felt that Darius was bound to be defeated, because Chaldaean science was no secret.5 The Diaries also describe what happened during the battle: 'The army abandoned Darius and returned to the cities' (AD -330; obv.17). After an evil omen, leaving a doomed king was a sensible thing to do.

There is a problem here. The Babylonian text contradicts the Greek source that is often accepted as the best, Arrian. He says that Darius was the first to turn and run, after which the other Persians followed suit (Anabasis 3.14.3). One way to harmonize these conflicting pieces of information is to render 'The army abandoned Darius' as 'Darius abandoned his army'.6 Suspending the rules of grammar, however, will not solve the problem. We must accept that either Arrian or the Diary is wrong, and in this case we must prefer the Babylonian source, which was written two weeks after the battle. In my opinion, H & Y should have included the text of the Diary in their book and could have ignored Arrian, who misrepresented the crucial stage of the battle.

The same cuneiform tablet offers an interesting account of Alexander's diplomatic moves before entering Babylon. We read about his offer to rebuild the temple of Marduk and learn how he announced that the houses of the Babylonians would not be looted. These negotiations are not mentioned by Curtius Rufus and Arrian, who state that the Macedonians prepared for battle when they approached Babylon (History of Alexander 5.1.19 and Anabasis 3.16.3). More intriguingly, the Diary makes it clear that Alexander did not send Macedonian envoys, but Greeks. Did he consider it unsafe to send the very soldiers who had recently fought against the Babylonian cavalry...?

...Finally, it is interesting to take a look at the spelling of Alexander's name in the cuneiform texts. The correct rendering of Alexandros would have been A-lek-sa-an-dar-ru-su, but until now, no tablet has been discovered that uses this Greek name. Instead, after some first attempts to render the conqueror's name, the Babylonian scribes settled upon A-lek-sa-an-dar. Probably, this only shows that the scribes found it difficult to render a foreign name. On the other hand, it can not be excluded that AlexanDAR is the Macedonian name by which the conqueror of Asia was known to his courtiers. Cuneiform renderings of Seleucus (Si-lu-uk-ku) and other names may also offer clues for linguists studying the Macedonian language.


[link to bmcr.brynmawr.edu]


in today's Macedonian it is spelled AlexanDAR also
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 10:15 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
History can not be altered [Rewritten] by one person or by one Nation.....consensus is required for obvious reasons. That alteration must be seen to be consistant with and compatible to the histories of other European peoples. Conflict in this regard ensures that those seeking to revise in our common European history book, shall not get what they seek, endorsement with the seal of Academic approval.

FYRoM's indulgence with Macedonian [Greek] ancient history, was intended to achieve them the Title of being the Modern Descendants of the ancient [Greek] Macedonians and through FYRoM, the whole of Slavdom, the whole Slavic world somehow gets connected to the ancient Macedonians of antiquity.

As if they [FYRoM Slavs] could Pull the Wool over Academic eyes!

FYRoM....ex Yugoslavs want their Language, Ethnicity, Nationality to be called Macedonian.....for suspicious political reasons and motives!

In the West, our understandings of how to Express our basic human rights of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and Freedom of Choice, is usually carried out within the boundaries of Academic Compatibility. It is a Basic Human Right to Self Identify, to Declare Yourself as You Wish. The Way in which those rights and freedoms are Expressed must not infringe on the rights and freedoms of Other's, this is basic Common Sense!

The Rules are Simple, Academia [The World Body of Knowledge] exist's to Certify Bold Assertions and Exotic Claims, providing they meet the stringent criteria of academic principles and desciplines. We need these checks and balances to be in place in order to protect us from a barrage of Absurd Assertions and Exotic Claims advanced by groups or individuals harbouring Complexes and delusions.

Academia.....The World Body of Knowledge is Required for obvious reasons and it's Findings must be Respected.

World Academia Supports and Endorses a Greek Hellenic Identity for Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians, only a Hardened Propagandist or a Severely Brainwashed Individual could deny the Greek Hellenic Idenity of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians!
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 10:18 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Shall we, being Greeks, be slaves to Archelaus, a Barbarian?


as sparta started to expand hegemony among the greeks, the Macedonians, probably wishing to avoid a major war with sparta, withdrew from thessaly.

excerpt borza:



Whether thessaly was on the verge of becoming a province of Macedonia...is problematic. What is not problematic is the comment of thrasymachus, who wrote an oration on behalf of the lariseans, in which survives the comment: "Shall we, being Greeks, be slaves to Archelaus, a barbarian?" - a line attributed also to euripidus.15

15. frag. 2 (Diels ed., frag. Vorsokratiker, 6th ed.) Daskalakis contended (Hellenism, 234) that thrasymachus was not referring to barbarian in the usual sense. the passage, he argued, should be taken "in its rhetorical slant of a difference between advanced and backwards greeks in an intellectual sense." this is strained and unconvincing.

-- In the shadow of olympus. the emergence of Macedon. chp. 7, pg. 165. 1992 paperback edition. borza.


-------------------------------------------------------



more from borza's book:

It is well known that all the people that did not speak Greek were named "barbarians", whereas the Greeks from the city-states used the word "xenoi" when referring to one-another(16).

Demosthenes was not alone in naming the Macedonians "barbarians"(15 -edit ). Ancient Greek historian Isocrates also called the Macedonians "barbarians"(17). The Greek Trasymachus, in his speech before the Larisians in V BC named the Macedonian king Archelaos "barbarian" in relation to the Greeks Larisians(18).




-------------------

15) The statement of Demosteness can be found in any publication of his speeches called Philippics.

16) For detailed explanation regarding the meaning of the term "barbarians" in the ancient world refer to Synthia Syndor Slowikowski: "Sport and Culture in the Ancient Macedonian Society" (The Pennsylvania State University, 1998, p. 30)

17) Synthia Syndor Slowikowski: "Sport and Culture in the Ancient Macedonian Society" (The Pennsylvania State University, 1998, p. 30)

18) Thycidides 2,8,1. Isocrates 5.108 and Clement of Alexandria 6.2.17

---------------------------------------------



so basically borza is saying that Alexander started claiming greek descent to cover up his help of the persians because he wanted to have good future relations with the greeks


borza, in the shadow pf olympos, pp 114-115


Alexandar 1

It is prudent to reject the stories of the ill-fated persian embassy to Amyntas's court, Alexander's midnight ride at plataea, and his participation in the olympic games as tales derived from Alexander himself (or from some official court version of things). all 3 stories are improbable on general grounds and all have a common thread: they are designed to create a hellenic descent for Alexander, and probably originated during the postwar period, although it is impossible to be certain about their gestation...and the circumstances of their transmission to herodotus.

after the death of mardonius and the collapse of the asian expeditionary force at plataea, the persians began their retreat from europe. herodotus is silent about Alexander's association with the persians during their withdrawal through his kingdom...

the ambivalence of alexander during the period of the persian invasion is noteworthy. technically a persian subject/ally...he would have been pledged to uphold persian interests in europe. but by 482-480, he had already demonstrated his willingness to assist athens in the matter of providing ships timber, an act contrary to persian welfare. at tempe his motives are unclear, although, as has been suggested above, he may have wished to avoid a military confrontation with the greeks, some of whom were the very athenians he had recently supplied with trimber. at plataea, he could not avoid confrontation with the athenians against whom he was arrayed...and the improbable story of his midnight ride may have been offered later to offset his role as a persian military ally.

what lay behind alexander's policy can only be guessed at...one can only speculate that the king had already determined that the present and future of Macedon rested with some accomodation with the greeks...yet the realities of the present suggested a prudent accomodation with persian hegemony in the north...indeed, alexander seems to have operated rather freely, if not flamboyantly, as a persian subject. and his relations with persians remained sound. there is no evidence of hostility...herodotus twice mentions Macedonians in the persian army - once generally...and once specifically at plataea...-and Macedonian agents were entrusted to oversee the loyalty of the boettian towns that had medized (under control of persia? -ed)...the Macedonians were willing and useful Persian allies.

----------------------------------------------


Back jacket of Borza's book from the publisher & a reviewer:

publisher:

in tracing the emergence of the Macedonian kingdom from its origins as a balkan backwater to a major european and asian power, eugene borza offers to specialists and lay readers alike a revealing account of a relatively unexplored segment of ancient history. he draws from recent archaeological discoveries and an enhanced understanding of historical geography to form a narrative that provides a matereial culture setting for political events examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the greek city-states, he suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a people


borza, in the shadow of olympos - the emergence of Macedon, princton university press, 1990, updated paperback edition (quoted below), 1992.

-------------------------------------------------------------​---

waldemar heckel, bryn mawr classical review

"borza has taken the the trouble to know Macedonia: the land, its prehistory, its position in the balkans, and its turbulent modern history. All contribute...to our understanding of the emergence of Macedon...borza has employed two of the historian's most valuable tools, autopsy and common sense, to produce a well-balanced introduction to the state that altered the course of greek and near eastern history."
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
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04/02/2010 10:21 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The Peoples of FYRoM declaring themselves "Macedeonians" is academically incorrect, not only is it problematic, it is also confusing. Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have been residing in that same Macedonian region from the beginning, since time immemorial.

FYRoM has a Choice......Choose a Name which Properly Reflects the reality and Distinguishes SlavMacedonians from GreekMacedonians. The Differences between the Two are Considerable, for Instance:

GreekMacedonians are the sole and legal heirs and Inheritors of the Hellenic legacy, which Includes Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians of Antiquity. World Academia [The World Body of Knowledge] Endorse and Support the Greekness of the Macedonians.

Slavs were known by many different tribal names over many time frames and many era's, but they were never ever known as Macedonians, this name is a Greek Hellenic name, Slavs can not use this name for their Language Ethnicity and Nationality, it would be an insult to the Greeks if such a thing were to be legitimized!
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 10:26 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Macedonia(n)...when this word is used, it refer's to Greek Hellenic people by default, courtesy of world academia [The World Body of Knowledge].

Macedonia void of it's Hellenic elements is NOT Macedonia at all!

Macedonia(n) by deception is NOT Macedonia(n) at all!

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people, from the dawn of time untill the present!

Thats all one needs to know about Macedonia.....Everything else is just Slavic and Turkic Waffle and Froth!
Nick the Greek (OP)
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04/02/2010 10:34 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Indo-European Languages:Hellenic Family

"The conquests of Alexander the Great (356-323 BC) spread Hellenic culture and the Greek language from his home in Macedonia to the Indus River in the east, and to Egypt in the south. Although Alexander's unified empire did not survive his death, its successor kingdoms (the Antigonid monarchy in Greece, the Seleucid monarchy in Syria, and the Ptolemaic monarchy in Egypt) lasted until the fall of Cleopatra, the last Ptolemaic queen of Egypt, at the hands of the Romans in 31 BC. However, Alexander's cultural achievements long outlasted his political accomplishments, and Hellenic culture and the Greek language continued to thrive in the eastern regions of the Roman Empire".

[link to www.utexas.edu]
Indo-European Languages
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 929725
Turkey
04/02/2010 10:35 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
can we ignore certain user's posts ? as in turn them off so that they wont clutter and screw up the screen with continous copy/paste posts they do from here and there ?
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
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04/02/2010 10:38 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The original Macedonians were an aggressive and turbulent folk of Hellenic stock, responsible for one of the world's great (if ephemeral) empires. What follows is a record of the Hellenic state, together with the subsequent development of the area, and ending with a record of the southern portions of Macedonia which are now once again in Greek hands.

[link to my.raex.com]

The Evidence is Overwhelming!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
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04/02/2010 10:51 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Y-DNA haplogroups: Percentage by ethnic groups

MACEDONIANS
(R1b 05.1) (R1a 15.2) (I 29.1) (E1b1b 24.1) (J 06.3) (G --.-)

GREEKS (NORTH)
(R1b 14.6) (R1a 18.8) (I 12.5) (E1b1b 35.4) (J --.-) (G 05.1)

GREEKS (SOUTH)
(R1b 19.6) (R1a 02.2) (I 23.9) (E1b1b 43.5) (J --.-) (G 06.5)

BULGARIANS
(R1b 17.0) (R1a 14.7) (I 15.0*) (E1b1b 20.7) (J --.-) (G --.-)

ALBANIANS
(R1b 17.6) (R1a 09.8) (I 23.6) (E1b1b 27.0) (J 27.5) (G --.-)

ALBANIANS (KOSOVARS)
(R1b 21.1) (R1a 04.4) (I 02.7) (E1b1b 45.6**) (J 16.7) (G --.-)

* approx. percentage
** high e1b1b attributed to genetic drift founder effect


R1a Percentages Balkans (R1a = ancient Macedonians "founder" gene)

Slovenian 37.1
Croatian 34.3
Bosnian 24.6
Hungarian 20.4
Romanian 20.4
Macedonian (Greek) 18.8
Serbian 15.9
Macedonian (Republic) 15.2
Bulgarian 14.7
Herzegovenian 12.1
Albanian 9.8
Greek (Crete) 8.8
Albanian (Kosovo) 4.4
Greek (South) 2.2
Greek (Cyprus) 2.0

***note: another study puts Macedonians at over 30%, Albanians at near 20% and Greeks at 9%.


In the western extreme of the central range of R1a, around 50% of male lines amongst Sorbs, Poles, Belarusians, Hungarians and Ukrainians have consistently proven to be R1a positive in various surveys, with slightly lower frequencies being found in mainland Croatia[4], Slovenia[5] and amongst Greek Macedonians[6].

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Distribution

Haplogroup R1a distributionR1a is "present at high frequency (40 per cent plus) from the Czech Republic across to the Altai Mountains in Siberia and south throughout Central Asia."[15] To the east, this gene found its way as far as Eastern Siberia, with considerable concentrations in Kamchatka and Chukotka, and it is possible that the gene even entered the Americas by this route.[23]

The modern population of Ukraine has the highest level of diversity of the gene making it the likeliest location of its origin.[6][15][24] this map[25] Even in South Eastern Europe (not a major concentration of R1a1) microsatellite networks of major Y chromosomal lineages show high diveristy of R1a1 (graph C)[25]. The variance cluster in South Eastern Europe (SEE) is located in the Republic of Macedonia.[citation needed]

[link to en.wikipedia.org]



Group I Balkan Substratum

Herzegovenian 63.8
Bosnia 42.0
Slovenian 38.2
Croatian 38.1
Serbian 29.2
Macedonian (Republic) 29.1
Greek (South) 23.9
Albanian 23.6
Hungary 22.8
Romania 22.0
Bulgaria 15.0
Greek (Crete) 13.0
Greek (North) 12.5
Albanian (Kosovo) 2.7


R1b

Slovenian 22.9
Albanian (Kosovo) 21.1
Greek (South) 19.6
Albanian 17.6
Greek (Crete) 17.0
Bulgaria 17.0
Croatia 15.2
Greek (North) 14.6
Hungary 13.3
Romania 13.0
Serbian 10.6
Greek (Cyprus) 9.0
Macedonian (Republic) 5.1
Herzegovenian 3.6
Bosnia 1.4


E1b1b

Alb (K) 45.6
Grk (S) 43.5
Grk (N) 34.5
Mak (R) 34.1
Alb 27.0
Grk (Cyp) 27.0
Bul 20.7
Serb 20.4
Bos 10.1
Hun 9.5
Cro 8.8
Grk (Cre) 8.8
Hrz 8.5
Rom 7.4


Group J

Cyprus 38.9
Albania 27.5
Kosovo 16.7
Greeks 16.0 approx.
Croatia 8.8
Macedonia 6.3
Slovenia 5.7
Serbia 5.3
Hungary 2.0


Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe 2000 years ago (map):

(R1a already in Macedonia 2000 years ago)

MAP OF EURO Y-DNA 2000 YEARS AGO
[link to www.eupedia.com]
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
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04/02/2010 10:51 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
can we ignore certain user's posts ? as in turn them off so that they wont clutter and screw up the screen with continous copy/paste posts they do from here and there ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929725
Hey Turk dude, it's a free forum dude right!

Or is the internet a reserve for the Turk, where only the Turk is free to teach us ancient European history.

I have witnessed the propaganda emanating from Turkish sources. The Turks become ancient and indigenous to Anatolia and the European Thrace region.

Oriental Turkmen have altered history, they want to start their perverse history with the Etruscans and the Trojans.

Is this what you want us to believe Turk dude.......?

FYRoM use Turkish resources and infrastructure to spread anti Greek propaganda on the internet, aided and abetted by
Turkmen. FYRoM and Turkey share much in common, you guys have a vested interest in ridiculing and humiliating us Greeks on a Global scale......well now it's payback time Turk dude!
deeznutz
User ID: 927903
Canada
04/02/2010 10:53 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Did the greeks not take about 52% of the Macedonian land back in 1912 after the uprising? Is that not the birth place of Alexander the great? Did they not also threaten the Macedonians to only speek greek? If Macedonia is GREEK then why dont all the people speek it as a 2nd tounge or better yet 1st tounge? If you were to claim that this part of land is YOURS would ou not enforce anything and everything in your power to make it 100% pure? What was greek called before 1870s before they formed greece? Why do so many maps from long ago show the "real" land size of Macedonia? even in some greek text books show the real land size. Why in 1990 after Yougo split did the greeks have a problem with Macedonia? Is it true no stautes of Alexander are in Athens? What is the nature of the greek DNA compared to the Macedonian DNA?

At the end of the day the greeks veto a poor country who can't defend its self why? Why are they so scared? give them their name they want nothing else.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 416242
Slovakia
04/02/2010 11:07 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Slavs appeared in the 6th century AD.
 Quoting: Ostria

it is not true. Nation, which already in 6th century lived in vast areas from Bavaria to Ural could not appear overnight (Prokopios wrote that Slvs occupy enormous spaces in Europe, he was Greek, so you should believe him). There were several Slav nations already described in ancient times - Anti, Wans, Scythians, Venedi (also called Vinidi, in German lands they were called Windisch), Slavi, Slavoni, Slovens, etc. For example in times of Vannius kingdom (Van - sic!) the realia in todays Slovakia and Hungary, as well as Austria up to Salzburgh had Slav and Celtic names. Realia means mountains, hills, rivers, parts of land, forests, etc. In spite of that people talk mof Vannius kingdom and Kvads as of German, just because Romans wrote so. But Romans did not differentiate too much between Slavs and Germans, neither Cletic - e.g. the name Germain was name of a Celtic(!!!) tribe in Galia, not of Allamanic or Teutonic. Etc. Proofs are many in archives, especially German and Italian, but in French, too, and mainly in Vatican. It has been the "historiography" in 19th century, when the history of Slavs had been crooked and twisted. Did you ever hear of Veles book? Btw in German and Sweedish sagas you an find, that when their ancestors came to their homeland from East, the land had been populated already by Wans, Jomsvikings were of Slav origin probably, too. etc, etc, etc...
bed
Netizen Ribbonmind

User ID: 789349
United States
04/02/2010 11:10 AM

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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Oh the gaul.
"The earth is mother of us all, for she is just; but you, because you are unjust have pretended that she is your mother alone; and if you do not stop, I will not permit you to remain upon her."

[link to www.livius.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 931599
Croatia
04/02/2010 11:13 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Problem with Greeks is greed they want simultaneously to be Greeks and Macedonian and that is schizophrenic..
Macedonians only wants to be Macedonians and not Greeks

If Greeks wants to be Macedonians they should simply change name of state to Macedonia and left Greek name free to use by others....LOL
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/02/2010 11:14 AM
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Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Did the greeks not take about 52% of the Macedonian land back in 1912 after the uprising? Is that not the birth place of Alexander the great? Did they not also threaten the Macedonians to only speek greek? If Macedonia is GREEK then why dont all the people speek it as a 2nd tounge or better yet 1st tounge? If you were to claim that this part of land is YOURS would ou not enforce anything and everything in your power to make it 100% pure? What was greek called before 1870s before they formed greece? Why do so many maps from long ago show the "real" land size of Macedonia? even in some greek text books show the real land size. Why in 1990 after Yougo split did the greeks have a problem with Macedonia? Is it true no stautes of Alexander are in Athens? What is the nature of the greek DNA compared to the Macedonian DNA?

At the end of the day the greeks veto a poor country who can't defend its self why? Why are they so scared? give them their name they want nothing else.
 Quoting: deeznutz 927903


-- yes, about 52% was annexed by greece
-- yes, Alexander the great was born at Pella -- I was born not even 100 miles from there
-- yes, you can be fined or jailed in greece for speaking "slavic"
-- the greeks were known as Romanoi (romans) before 1870 -- they even called themselves that
-- beginning in the early 1900s, greece shipped in hundreds of thousands of greek speakers from pontic turkey in a population exchange. most of these greek immigrants to greece were settled in north greece. beginning about the 1920s, hundreds of thousands of "slav speakers" were driven from their homes in north greece, thus significantly changing the ethnic element of this area. not only that, but they remaining "slav speakers" in northern greece were called Dopoi (locals) by greeks, to distinguish them from the newcomers. today, original greeks treat these greek-speaking newcomers poorly


the greeks are still shipping in the newcomers onto historic Macedonian land:

Rev Eur Migr Int. 1997;13(2):141-61.

[The new migration of the Pontic Greeks toward Salonika: geographical origin and settlement process]
[Article in French]

Darques R.

PIP: "From 1988 to 1994, 20,000 to 25,000 Pontic Greeks coming from the ex-USSR went to settle in Salonika. Although this exodus presents all the characteristics of an economic migratory movement, the conflicts and tensions which affect the Russian peripheral territories, and an undoubted cultural connivance, make the ¿Rossopondi' the direct heirs of the Asia Minor refugees. The files compiled by a Pontic association of the Macedonian metropolis allow us to analyse the geographical origin and the settlement conditions of the migrants." (EXCERPT)

PMID: 12348352 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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