Godlike Productions - Conspiracy Forum
Users Online Now: 1,124 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 390,823
Pageviews Today: 495,021Threads Today: 112Posts Today: 2,318
04:04 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/02/2010 10:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
wow, what a devastating article (the long one) above by Ernest Badian. If you had any doubt that greeks and Macedonians were different people, you won't after reading it. I'll excerpt some of the better points for the Macedonian side, tomorrow.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/02/2010 10:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
yet another source that puts haplogroup R1a in the Balkans from a very early time (and NOT 600 AD):


The Ancestral lines in the Noel DNA Project:


Below is the order of the Markers that appeared which distinguishes the different haplogroups. The markers were numbered in the order that they were discovered. This shows that haplogroup E3b split from the others, then the remaining groups split from each other with the J haplogroup separating into J1 and J2 .
Ref: Deep Ancestry - Spencer Wells

E3b - "Adam" > M168 > YAP > M96 > M2
K2 - "Adam" > M168 > M89 > M9 > M70
R1b- "Adam" > M168 > M89 > M9 > M207 > M173 > M343
I1a - "Adam" > M168 > M89 > M170 > M253
J1 - "Adam" > M168 > M89 > M304 > M267


E - This haplogroup first appeared in northeast Africa. They may have left in the second wave of migration into the Middle East.
E3b - These were some of the first farmers who spread across the Mediterranean.

I - A Middle Eastern clan who migrated to the Balkans and then into Central Europe about 21,000 to 28,000 years ago.
They were forced in the last ice age into the Balkans and Iberia.
-- See R1a in the Balkans, below
I1a - 20,000 years ago this haplogroup sought refuge from the Ice Age on the Iberian Peninsula. Later, 15,000 years ago, they expanded
over Western Europe. Today they are found in Northwestern Europe with a high frequency in western Scandinavia.

J - The patriarch of the J haplogroup was born about 15,000 years ago in the Fertile crescent.
J1 - Emerged in the Middle East during the Neolithic Revolution. They were the successful farmers and spread to North Africa where it is in
its highest frequency. They are also found at low frequencies in western Europe.
J2 - J2 like J1 is from the Middle East, then Northern Africa and Southern Europe. In Italy its frequency is 20% and in southern Spain it is 10%.

R - An Asian clan that split, one going towards Europe and then much later the other within the last 10,000 years went to India.
R1 - These are the descendants of the first large scale human settlers in Europe about 35,000 years ago. The Ice Age forced them into Spain, Italy
and the Balkans.

R1b - These were the Cro-Magnon people who migrated out of the area north and south of the Pyrenees to cover western Europe .
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/03/2010 07:22 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Constantine Jirecek was an eminent Czech historian of the 19th century who, thanks to the valuable services he rendered to the Bulgarian nationality through his writings, was invited in Sofia to become minister of national education. On the basis of epigraphic evidence, he established a line separating the Greek from the non-Greek world in the Balkan Peninsula. Even though his delimitation was applicable mostly to the early years [4th Century A.D.]of the Byzantine Empire, namely to the period before the arrival of the Slavs and the Bulgarians, it has been applied to later periods including the one which is of interest to us, namely from the 6th Century onwards when the Eastern Roman empire witnessed the barbaric incursions of the Slav Avar Bulgar hoards.
[link to strangemaps.wordpress.com]

Despite some minor corrections by later scholars, this line has been generally accepted as representing more or less faithfull historical realities, covering quite a few centuries. On the north, the sphere of Greek influence has been delimited by a boundary cutting across the Peninsula from Alessio on the Adriatic to the Black Sea. After going through the Dibra region, this line crosses northern Macedonia somewhere between Stobi (Istip) and Scouboi (Skoplje). Then it turns north towards Nyssa (Nish) and Pirot where it comes nearest to the Danubian river system. From that point it goes towards Serdica (Sofia) and then, following the Southern slopes of the Balkan range of mountains, it reaches the sea. We leave out the coastal region of the Black Sea, where the Greek world made its presence felt in a more continuous manner and much more to the north of the Jirecek line.

From the 6th Century A.D. the Eastern Roman Empire witnessed the settlement of the Slavs [and other's] on Byzantine Imperial teritory. Cross fertilization occured [[by force][free will]] as to how much and to what extent is a matter of debate, if Byzantine documents are to be believed then one must conclude that mixing occured in a limited and controlled manner, the ecclesiastic Byzantines [Romioi] frowned upon all types of mixed marriages with barbarians.

[link to www.pnas.org]
Map4 clearly displays the genetic geography of antiquity.
If we look hard at the Balkan region the genetic line of delimitation is comparable to the Jirecek line shown on the above link.

Much is said about SouthSlavs in general and FYRoM Slavs in particular, about them having Indigenous Autchthonous origins........well, if genetic studies of the modern Balkan populations are Interpreted accurately, one must conclude that "Slavicization" occured and to a large degree. Whilst the SouthSlavs share a Linguistic affilliation to the other Two branches of Slavdom, their morphology and genetic signatures are closer to their immediate neighbour's, suggesting Indigenous origins.

[link to www.eupedia.com]
Predominant ethnic groups by region in Europe

This map was created based on the latest Y-DNA data combined with physical and historical evidence. Names on the map are not necessarily ethnic groups but culturo-linguistic or historical ones. Colours are more indicative of the ethnic similarities and differences between regions.

Striking.....how the "Green Shaded Area" of the Balkans is
classified as the "Greco-Slavic" Y-Dna Area, which cover's vitually the Eastern Roman Empire as it once was in it's glory day's.

I have alwasy said....The Southern Slavs are More Greek Hellenic than they care to Mention!

Genetic Studies Prove it!
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/03/2010 08:16 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Proving through the means of Blood and Dna, ones Ethno origins or ones Indigenous Native Autochthonous status to ones Ancestral lands is all but taken for granted nowaday's.... but it is not that simple, a simple blood and swab test [analysis] can provide some answer's but not all of them, for example we can conclusively prove 100% that blood and Dna are not relative to Ethnicity, at least within a race of peoples. So..........

Is there such a thing as race....? The concept of race is a very powerful one, but it has little basis in genetic studies. Large scale Dna analysis of our direct male and female lines has shown that we are all descended from a small number of ancestors. However, these distant ancestors are not like the biblical Adam and Eve: they lived in different places at different times. Nor are they our only ancestors. We are descended from other prehistoric people, but for one reason or another they have not left any traces in our genes. Ultimately, we are all descended from people who lived in Africa many thousands of years ago.

Blood and Dna are not related to ethnicity, at least within a race. 100% proof = Ottoman Janissaries......European christian children were raised to be good Turks in order to commit barbaric attrocities to their own European Kith and Kin.

So if Blood and Dna do not have a relationship to Ethnicity then what is it all about, what is Ethnicity and how do you best define Ethnicity in modern times, but more importantly how was Ethnicity defined in ancient times during antiquity!

Ethnicity is one of the most awkward of subjects to discuss
and to come up with a definative universal answer to which we called all use as a reference point.

For me quite simply, Ethnicity is defined in one short but unique word.........Pride...?

Macedonians are those peoples who are proud of that campaign their ancestor's did to spread the Greek Hellenic language, Knowledge and Culture to the far reaches of the known World!

The Macedonian Name is intrinsically and inextricably linked to Hellenism. The Macedonian Name can not be detached or seperated away from Hellenism.

Today's Greeks are the Sole and Legal Modern Representatives of the Hellenic Legacy. No Other Modern people on This Planet are Closer to the ancient Hellenes and their Legacy, than Today's Modern Greeks.

Macedonia void of Hellenic Elements is Not Macedonia at all, it would be deceptive and false to claim Otherwise.

So what determines a Macedonian then.......?

We know that it is not the blood and Neither is it the Dna, so it Must be the Pride thing.......?

Any modern person wanting attach themselves to the Macedonian Name may want to consider that Pride thing!

Today's Greek Hellenic people exalt and honour the ancient Hellenes because of their achievements, today's Greeks respect their ancient Hellenic legacy, that is why modern Greeks jealously guard and protect their history and heritage from any perverse contaminations such as the corrupt and distorted onslaught we have witnessed from Rogue Slavic and Turkic Scholar's Pseudo-Historians and Specialist Propagandist's.
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/03/2010 08:45 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The Internet is Littered with lies and half truths in regards to Ancient European History. Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians can not be claimed by both Greeks and Slavs. The problem this has caused the Modern
World is immense, it has hampered European Integration for starter's.

The Name dispute problem has focused the minds of academics and politicians at the highest echelons of scholarly and diplomatic office to contemplate the meaning of Ethnicity and it's Application in todays modern and complicated World.

It is the Duty for every Scholar that Specializes in Ancient European History to Contribute in a Constructive way so as to Enable us to find definative Answer's to the Questions:

1....Alexander the Great....Greek or Slav.

2....Ancient Macedonians....Greeks or Slavs.

We Need Crystal Clear Definative answer's to these Two questions.

The Academic World has Answered:
[link to macedonia-evidence.org]

362 Accreditted Professional World Scholar's of Repute Endorse and Support Alexander the Great's Greek Hellenic Credentials.
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/03/2010 09:46 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Alexander the Great was NOT a SouthSlav, he was a Hellene, those who deny his Greek Hellenic credentials should consider this:
[link to macedonia-evidence.org]

The Hellenic Republic has legitimate recognized historic rights over the ancient region of Macedonia. Today's Greeks are the Sole and Legal Modern Representatives of the Hellenic Legacy. No Other Modern people on This Planet are Closer to the ancient Hellenes and their Legacy, than Today's Modern Greeks......and the Greeks can Prove This at any legal setting!

Today's Greeks have every right to protect their history and heritage from being contaminated by toxic and virulent anti-Greek propaganda perpetrated by some Turkish and southslavic groups and Individuals for politically motivated reasons.

The Internet is littered with Theories Ideas and Conjectures promoting false Inaccurate and Incompatible versions of ancient European history designed and developed to rubbish and belittle modern day Greeks.

Today's Greeks have endured ridicule and humiliation on a global scale. Modern Greeks have been attacked and challenged on their genes, anthropology, language, religion, culture and traditions.

No modern Nation State has endured what the Greeks have had to endure for the best part of two decades from a neighouring country.

Greeks are perfectly entitled to extract maximum gains at any future discussions and negotiations which will eventually resolve the Name dispute and which will result in a binding comprehensive agreement.

After almost two decades, global politicians have been fully briefed on the backround and the historical use of the Macedonian name. They are aware of it's Greek Hellenic origins and attributes.

FYRoMs explanations for wanting to use a Greek Hellenic Name for language use, ethnicity use and nationality use has not been fully understood. FYRoM's Reasons and Motives remain Suspicious!

Global politicians are being polite when they say, the Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country and it's people.....and Most importantly a Name for all of it's peoples to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/03/2010 01:27 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The Eastern Roman Empire [Byzantium] absorbed many Incoming Invader Settlers, each leaving their Genetic Mark to the regions gene pool in the form of Admixture. People that reside in the geographic Regions once Governed and Administered by the Eastern Roman Empire could share in that Regions Ancient History and Heritage only if they Re-Hellenize themselves Willingly and Voluntarily........get back to base, so to speak.

This is aimed at those people that consider themselves Indigenous Native and Autochthonous to the Balkan haemus and know deep down inside that they resented having to be coerced into an uncomfortable affiliation with Slavdom but only as Relunctant Slavs, should search out their Hellenic Roots in order to Re-Hellenize themselves and return back to the fold. The Native Autochthonous Original Peoples of Southeastern Europe were:

1.....Thracians and Their Derivatives.
2.....The Illyrians and Their Derivatives.
3.....The Hellenes and Their Derivatives.

The Peoples Above Cross Fertilized and Produced Various Indigenous Population Groups. The Hellenes were the Most Dominant and Resiliant Group of All. It was under This Name the Indegenous Peoples Reached Their Azimuth in cultural development the Arts and Sciences and in the Art of Warfare.

Slavonic Peoples were exogenous NOT Indigenous to the Balkans, if they were Indigenous they would have known the Hellenes by their Indegenous Name. Instead, the Slavs used the word "Grci" meaning Greeks, from the Roman word Graecos, further proof that the Slavonic Incursions into the Byzantine Empire occured in the 6th Century A.D. during the Reign of the Emperor Justinian.

It is Inaccurate and Incompatible for Slavdom to be used as the Vehicle for Claiming or Usurping the Regions ancient Greek Hellenic History and Heritage.....for many many valid reason.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 416242
Slovakia
04/03/2010 03:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
I do know that Turks claim to be Slavs when they post anti-Greek propaganda on the internet as do the Albanians......
The Balkans is a very backward place, very deceptive people!
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694

there's a dude in Cluj-Napoca (Romania-Seven Castles) with purely Magyar name Szalay, who introduces himself as Hirsch from Israel when writing on Slovak forums and as a Romanian guy when writing on Youtube or somewhere else. Of course posting stupidities to get Slovaks, Magyars and Romanians into a row... so not only in Balkans are there smurfs posing as something else.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 933387
Sweden
04/03/2010 03:33 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Even with a Time Machine it would be hard to proof anything...or it would be a hard work to get conclusions. :-)
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/04/2010 05:47 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
I do know that Turks claim to be Slavs when they post anti-Greek propaganda on the internet as do the Albanians......
The Balkans is a very backward place, very deceptive people!

there's a dude in Cluj-Napoca (Romania-Seven Castles) with purely Magyar name Szalay, who introduces himself as Hirsch from Israel when writing on Slovak forums and as a Romanian guy when writing on Youtube or somewhere else. Of course posting stupidities to get Slovaks, Magyars and Romanians into a row... so not only in Balkans are there smurfs posing as something else.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 416242
Hristos Anesti Slovak dude, [Christ is Risen] it's Easter Sunday for all the worlds Christians.

Greeks and Slavs share much in common not least the Orthodox Religion, even the Catholic Slavs use the Orthodox Rite as far as I am aware!

Our Greco-Slavic Byzantine Culture in substance is both physical and apparent and also spiritual, acting as a Catalyst to keep us bound together.

Anti-Greek propaganda on the Internet emanating from Turkic and Slavic sources works against that Greco-Slavic friendship bond.....who know's, maybe that is the intention.

Conspiracy......The west [Europe] meddling in the East ?
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/04/2010 05:57 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Even with a Time Machine it would be hard to proof anything...or it would be a hard work to get conclusions. :-)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 933387
Hey Swedish dude, where is your common sense!

If you got into a time machine and programmed it to travel back in time, to the times of Alexander the Great, what would you have seen ? and how much convincing would you need to arrive at a logical conclusion based on that visual experiance......Intelligence and common sense dictates:

1....If it is dressed up like a Greek.....It's Greek

2....If it Walks like a Greek.............It's Greek

3....If it Talks like a Greek.............It's Greek

4....If it Fights in the Name of Greece...It's Greek

5....If it goes to War for the Freedom and Glory of Greece [Hellas]......It's Greek.

Swedish dude, Get real, how much convincing do the Swedish dudes need ?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 559460
New Zealand
04/04/2010 06:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Of course Alexander the Great was Hellenic Greek.

However things change over time.

The name and heritage of Macedonia has now been given to a more worthy and humble nation. The present inhabitants of Greece sold their souls and therefore relinquished their Macedonian heritage and legacy of Alexander when they joined the European Union (Roman) Beast, the Beast of Revelation.
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/04/2010 06:24 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Of course Alexander the Great was Hellenic Greek.

However things change over time.

The name and heritage of Macedonia has now been given to a more worthy and humble nation. The present inhabitants of Greece sold their souls and therefore relinquished their Macedonian heritage and legacy of Alexander when they joined the European Union (Roman) Beast, the Beast of Revelation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 559460
Kiwi dude, are you nuts, can you give a Name and it's associated heritage away ?

The Americans Shafted the Greeks big time.
That administration of George W Bush [2004] recognized FYRoM as Rom in haste and under False pretenses, they did it not for Academic or Political Correctness but out of Spite, to teach the Maverick Greeks a lesson.

The Greeks were seen in that American administrations eyes as being Mavericks, following their own political agenda and not seen to be part of the overall Team [Nato].

The Maverick Greeks paid the price for not cowing down to American pressure!

George W Bush and his administration made a Mistake a big Blunder. Those Advisor's dispensed Faulty Advice, they gave that advice based on ill thought out flawed political considerations which today are No Longer applicable.

Those Advisor's...there Names shall always be associated with that Mistake and that Blunder.

Remember This.....Political Mistakes and Blunder's can be Rectified!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 933938
Greece
04/04/2010 06:57 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Xristos Anesti for the Christians around the world.

I didnt have the time to do the DNA research yet, I just want to add a few things I found after reading Ernst Badian's study, where he seems to overlook some data.

First of all, there were several Macedonias who participated in the Olympic games BEFORE and AFTER Alexander the Great (and dont forget the names we have are of the winners only not all the participants.)

SO here is a list:
King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BC. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.

King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BC and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.

King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BC, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BC, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BC, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.

Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BC.

Damasias won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BC.

Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BC.

Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BC and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BC.

Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BC.

During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BC and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BC, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi, from the seahores of Macedonia…”

This means that Macedonias were accepted as Greeks to participate in the games, where only Greeks were accepted.

SO why all this reaction for Alexander the Great? Probably because he was promoting himself as THE leader of all Greeks (as his father before him) and some people (mostly Athenians -see Dimosthenes- and Thebans -they both revolted when Alexander became king after his fathers assassination) didnt like it.

On the language issue just look at all the coins that is being found (both in Greece and FYROM) and this very recent discovery in FYROM (near Ohrid on 31 March 2010) with the name of Philip in Greek:
[link to www.balkantravellers.com]

And for a longer Macedonian text in Greek, we have the Pella Katadesmos (the curse tablet)




to be continued...
Ostria

User ID: 933938
Greece
04/04/2010 06:58 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
the above was me

bump
Ostria

User ID: 933938
Greece
04/04/2010 07:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
If you have some time watch this video. Manolis Andronikos, a well-known archaeologists, speaks on his discoveries at Vergina.
Vergina is a small town in northern Greece, located in the prefecture of Imathia, Central Macedonia. The town became internationally famous in 1977, when the Greek archaeologist Manolis Andronikos unearthed what he claimed was the burial site of the kings of Macedon, including the tomb of Philip II, father of Alexander the Great. The finds established the site as the ancient Aigai, the first capital of ancient Macedon.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 933941
Croatia
04/04/2010 07:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Alexander the Great was NOT a SouthSlav, he was a Hellene, those who deny his Greek Hellenic credentials should consider this:
[link to macedonia-evidence.org]

The Hellenic Republic has legitimate recognized historic rights over the ancient region of Macedonia. Today's Greeks are the Sole and Legal Modern Representatives of the Hellenic Legacy. No Other Modern people on This Planet are Closer to the ancient Hellenes and their Legacy, than Today's Modern Greeks......and the Greeks can Prove This at any legal setting!

Today's Greeks have every right to protect their history and heritage from being contaminated by toxic and virulent anti-Greek propaganda perpetrated by some Turkish and southslavic groups and Individuals for politically motivated reasons.

The Internet is littered with Theories Ideas and Conjectures promoting false Inaccurate and Incompatible versions of ancient European history designed and developed to rubbish and belittle modern day Greeks.

Today's Greeks have endured ridicule and humiliation on a global scale. Modern Greeks have been attacked and challenged on their genes, anthropology, language, religion, culture and traditions.

No modern Nation State has endured what the Greeks have had to endure for the best part of two decades from a neighouring country.

Greeks are perfectly entitled to extract maximum gains at any future discussions and negotiations which will eventually resolve the Name dispute and which will result in a binding comprehensive agreement.

After almost two decades, global politicians have been fully briefed on the backround and the historical use of the Macedonian name. They are aware of it's Greek Hellenic origins and attributes.

FYRoMs explanations for wanting to use a Greek Hellenic Name for language use, ethnicity use and nationality use has not been fully understood. FYRoM's Reasons and Motives remain Suspicious!

Global politicians are being polite when they say, the Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to find a suitable Name for itself, a Name that will properly describe the country and it's people.....and Most importantly a Name for all of it's peoples to be Proud of, this is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the world is waiting for!
 Quoting: Nick the Greek 931694




Thats all nice and dandy but....Greeks are just hellenisied Serbs, Macedonians are also Serbs, not hellenisied but with speech defect. They got to be since all Slavs are Serbs, Russians included....and lots of others. Like Kong David and Solomon, Napoleon etc etc...according to Serbs, of course.
alex
User ID: 906010
United Kingdom
04/04/2010 07:20 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
most Macedonian males today (about 75%) belong to genes from the I and R1a haplogroups. BOTH THESE GROUPS OF GENES ARE NOW though to have already been present in the Balkans over 4000 years ago, proving our male ancestors have an ancient and very long history in the balkans. why is this important? because some historians maintain that today's slav-speakers did not reach the balkans until about 600 ad. but, the GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE is undermining this claim and is proving today's Macedonians as the successors of the ancient Macedonians. With this GROWING BODY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE, greece is losing its main argument and the position of the Macedonians is becoming stronger.



maybe they just adopted the slavic language? People of Ireland are only 10% celtic but they speak a celtic language. People of England are only 20% anglo saxon but they speak English (anglo saxon). Language is not always a good indication of race. Is a guatamalan Indian who speaks spanish a spaniard?

Think outside the box guys.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 927512
You could be right, maybe they just got jabbed by the slavs and got themselves slavified, maybe they are the same as greeks, maybe thats why they have collective memory of ancient past same with greeks.

It's wierd to find out that all these years they thought of themselves as yugoslavs and come 1991 it all changes.
alex
User ID: 905669
United Kingdom
04/04/2010 07:45 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Thats all nice and dandy but....Greeks are just hellenisied Serbs, Macedonians are also Serbs, not hellenisied but with speech defect. They got to be since all Slavs are Serbs, Russians included....and lots of others. Like Kong David and Solomon, Napoleon etc etc...according to Serbs, of course.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 933941

lol
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 924972
United States
04/04/2010 08:09 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
The important thing is not the genes Alexander had, it is that he was CULTURALLY Greek. Just as all the different races in this country are CULTURALLY American if they were born here (with a few exceptions). Many of the later Roman emperors were not born in Italy but they were culturally Roman(or Greek as the case may be).
Nick the Greek (OP)
User ID: 931694
United Kingdom
04/04/2010 08:34 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
During the demise and break-up of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, Southeastern Europeans were forced to make deep, soul searching, sometimes life changing decisions.

Southeastern Europeans were forced to make important choices, decisions which ultimately shaped and determined their Affiliations and Associations with an ethnic / national group based on their own perceived Identity.

These decisions were made freely under the individuals own free will. Human rights, the rights to freedoms of expression and freedoms of choice based on the individuals own life experiances.

Some individuals made concious decisions to Affiliate themselves with the Bulgarian Exarchate. Some individuals made concious decisions to Affiliate themselves with the Serbs cause. Other's made conscious decisions to Affiliate themselves to the Patriarchate of Constsntinople and Christian Orthodoxy.

Southeastern Europeans made concious decisions, using their own free will to self express, they used their freedoms of expression and their human rights to freedoms of choice to aligne themselves with Hellenism and the Greek Cause.

Slavophones, Vlachs, Epirot Albanians, Aroumans, Romanians, Russians, Aegeans and Other's fought for the freedom and glory of Hellas, so that Hellas could Exist.

Southeastern Europeans made conscious decisions, their own choices. They Re-Hellenized themselves Wllingly and Voluntarily and laid down their lives for the Hellenic Cause and Hellenism.

The Hellenic Republic takes Seriously It's National Committments, it's Moral and Legal Obligations towards Hellenism.

In the Balkans we are All mixed. Southeastern Europeans searching for their Roots and Ethno Origins could seek and search along Two Paths. The Choices are Hellenism or Slavdom, the peoples of the Balkan Regions could probably find links to both.

Slavdom should Respect the Seniority of the Hellenes in their own homelands. Slavdom should respect those Southeastern Europeans who freely and conciously decided to aligne themselves with Hellenism and the Hellenic Cause.

Southeastern Europeans Re-Hellenized themselves willingly and voluntarily and laid down their own lives for Hellenism, so that Hellas could Exist.

Re-Hellenization remains the Only way of sharing in the history and heritage of the Greeks.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 10:31 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Xristos Anesti for the Christians around the world.

I didnt have the time to do the DNA research yet, I just want to add a few things I found after reading Ernst Badian's study, where he seems to overlook some data.

First of all, there were several Macedonias who participated in the Olympic games BEFORE and AFTER Alexander the Great (and dont forget the names we have are of the winners only not all the participants.)

SO here is a list:
King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BC. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.

King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BC and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.

King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BC, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BC, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BC, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.

Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BC.

Damasias won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BC.

Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BC.

Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BC and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BC.

Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BC.

During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BC and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BC, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi, from the seahores of Macedonia…”

This means that Macedonias were accepted as Greeks to participate in the games, where only Greeks were accepted.

SO why all this reaction for Alexander the Great? Probably because he was promoting himself as THE leader of all Greeks (as his father before him) and some people (mostly Athenians -see Dimosthenes- and Thebans -they both revolted when Alexander became king after his fathers assassination) didnt like it.

On the language issue just look at all the coins that is being found (both in Greece and FYROM) and this very recent discovery in FYROM (near Ohrid on 31 March 2010) with the name of Philip in Greek:
[link to www.balkantravellers.com]

And for a longer Macedonian text in Greek, we have the Pella Katadesmos (the curse tablet)




to be continued...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 933938



Hi Ostria. Happy Easter, and Happy Easter to all.

About the olympics, badian was commenting about the period from Alexander I to Philip II. He dismisses Alex I's participation as a political ploy, using the similarity of his birthplace -- argos Orestikon -- to argos in greece, to imply he had a connection. he also invented, in badian's view, the assassination of the persian ambassadors and his midnight ride to warn the greeks of persian plans. to seek legitimacy for his rule, and because it was "popular" amongst balkan kings to do so for political reasons, he invented a lineage harking back to mythological grrek ancestors. he had to do a hard sell to convince the greeks he was 'greek'. still, at best, he only managed to convince them that the monarchy was greek. never in the ancient time were the Macedonian people seriously considered greeks.

about archelous, he says the attestation of his participation in the olympics came long after his life and is not reliable. further, most of the pronouncements about Macedonian greekness came from the court itself and the court's flatterers, which badian views as more political posturing. the Macedonian's have such a hard time convincing greek officials of their greek legitimacy, that they are forced to start their OWN olympics - the counter-olympics - as badian says.

flash forward to the time of philip II and we see philip's skillful exploitation of the growing cultural ties between Macedonians and greeks, to infiltrate the greek institutions, and therefore undermine greek rule in greek lands. even at this late date, elite greeks grow suspicious of philip's plans and so expose him as a usurper, a non-greek. we can now add the pampliset i posted about above, to the list, as a person living at the same time as when demosthenes made his philippic speeches showing philip to be a non-greek, also said similar things in greek courts. it is another source we have now. even at this late date, even after at least Alex I had hundreds of years earlier participated in the olympics, greeks are still unwilling to accept Macedonian monarchy as true greeks, and never accepted the people as such. Macedonian people themselves, never accepted their 'greekness' either. re-read badian's piece again. it's all there.

about the curse tablet from pella, it is yet another example of the use of greek for writing. Macedonian was never a literary language while greek was a strong one, and given the high probability of illiteracy amongst the population, it wasn't written by the person it was for. probably, a professional writer and engraver was hired to produce the curse tablet. since greek was the only literary language in the region, it would have to be in greek. Interestingly, in this period, we have evidence of writing from Macedonia in FOUR greek dialects! Which one was the Macedonian if it was a greek dialect?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 11:13 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
[link to www.bbc.co.uk]

ROMANS AND ARMENIANS ALSO PARTICIPATED IN THE ANCIENT OLYMPICS

Emperor Nero - Olympic Champion

The Romans regarded Greek culture as being rather effete and preferred their own more robust version of games and spectacles; copious amounts of blood on the sand ensured the success of any sporting event. Gladiators and half-starved wild animals were much in demand and a popular feature was the public execution of criminals by being chased around the arena and finally eaten by a hungry lion.

The Emperor Nero fancied himself as too cultured and artistic to enjoy such barbaric spectacles. He replaced the blood sports with foot races, singing and poetry contests, winning all the events for which he entered. This did not go down well with the paying customers in Rome, so Nero decided to go on a tour of Greece where the finer things were appreciated.

Delaying only long enough to take care of a few loose ends such as murdering his mother, castrating his former favourite slave boy and crucifying a few fans who didn't applaud loudly enough at his last poetry recital, he packed his lyre and all his cosmetics and set out for Greece to attend and compete in the 67 AD Olympic Games. Here he not only won the chariot race despite falling out of his chariot, but he introduced several new events of a musical nature. The judges prudently declared him the winner of them all.

Flushed with success, he made the rounds of the Isthmian, Nemean, Pythian and Panathean Games and handsomely won numerous events at every one. During his performances nobody was allowed to leave, although a few people got round that by feigning death and being carried out. These games were not usually all held in the same year, but in 67 AD they made an exception for Nero because his offer was just too good to refuse.

He returned to Rome, a tired but happy Emperor, with 1800 prizes. Normally these would have been wreaths of laurel or bay that an athlete could take home to his wife for the stock pot, but so overwhelmed were his loyal subjects by Nero's talent that they made another exception and presented him with jewels and precious objects. Medals were not introduced till 1904 or Nero would have made Mark Spitz look pretty silly with his meagre seven. Amazingly, the Ancient Games survived the Nero episode and went on for another 326 years before being banned on religious grounds by the Emperor Theodosius in 393 AD
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 11:29 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Eugene Borza



Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?

(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American Philological
Association)

This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were

they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the

1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,

part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-

Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"

of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.



Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:



I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources

(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the

archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite

attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.

Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language

it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court

of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more

proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels

and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.



II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived

from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in

the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.



III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from

Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),

based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two

languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded

the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by

considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.



IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an

increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,

religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians

were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the

excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their

political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.



I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the

south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the

Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became

Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary

preferences.



Finally, a took at contemporary Balkan politics. The Greek government firmly maintains that the ancient Macedonians

were ethnic Greeks, and that any claim by the new Republic of Macedonia (The Former Yugoslav Republic of

Macedonia) to the name "Macedonia" and the symbols of ancient Macedonia is tantamount to an expropriation of Greek

history. Moreover, it is claimed that there is no such thing as a distinct Slavic Macedonian identity and language separate

from Bulgaria and Serbia.



I shall review the evidence for the existence of a modern Macedonian ethnicity with reference to my recent work in a

Macedonian ethnic community in Steelton, Pennsylvania. Both the gravestones in a local cemetery and U.S. census reports

from the early twentieth century provide evidence that emigres from Macedonia who lived and died in Steelton in the early

twentieth century considered themselves to be distinct from their Serbian and Bulgarian neighbors.

(Edit by me: There are also thousands of Ellis Island immigration records from this time period where Macedonian immigrants to America self-identify as Macedonians)

I shall conclude with a summary showing how the present conflict between Greeks and Macedonians in the Balkans is

characterized by both sides reaching back to antiquity to provide an often false historical basis to justify their respective

modem positions: the theme of "reverberations" as mentioned by the organizers of the panel.

(Note 2: genetic records are now showing that at least, ancestors of today's Macedonians were present in the balkans thousands of years ago. This fact certainly opens the door to shared ancestry between ancient and modern Macedonians and seriously undermines greek claims that modern Macedonians only arrived in Macedonia some 900 years after the time of Alexander the Great)

link to www.apaclassics.org
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 934090
United States
04/04/2010 11:35 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Armenian Genocide - A Fact!
Enough is enough! Still after 93 years of denial, Turkish government yet to face its brutal history! Yet to recognise the crimes committed by their Ottoman ancestors! Yet to say ... SORRY!




[link to www.youtube.com]

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 11:42 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
Another hint. R1a1 found in Crete that is similar to the R1a1 found in the balkans


'Slavic' gene found in possible Minoan isolate population of crete:


1: Eur J Hum Genet. 2007 Jan 31; [Epub ahead of print] Links
Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau.Martinez L, Underhill PA, Zhivotovsky LA, Gayden T, Moschonas NK, Chow CE, Conti S, Mamolini E, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Herrera RJ.
1Department of Biological Sciences, Florida International University, Miami, FL, USA.

The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau - a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island. The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans.European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 31 January 2007; doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201769.

PMID: 17264870 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

you'll have to look this up your self at pubmed (national institutes of health, USA)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 11:51 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
this information has now been taken down by iGenea because they say they can't keep updating it as new genetic studies are reported, but it's interesting to see what they thought at this time (iGenea = swiss genetic lab that carries out genetic profiles of paying individuals):


today's Macedonians have strongest genetic connection to ancient Macedonians


iGENEA
iGENEA is administered by Gentest.ch GmbH, the renowned Swiss Institute for Genetic Research.


Inma Pazos, Managing Director iGENEA


[link to www.igenea.com]


Home » Europe » do the macedonians today have the same DNA or they
Post from Goran to 26.09.2008
I want to ask if the present today macedonians have the same origin or any simmilarity with the ancient macedonians, and how much percentage of Slavonic influence we have as a nation.. Also I want to now if we are the same nation with bulgarians as they claim. Thank you in advance


Post from iGENEA to 26.09.2008
Albania:
30% Illyrians
15% Phoenician
14% Hellenen
18%Thraker
2% Vikings
20% slavs


Greece:
10% Germanic
10%illyrians
20% slavs
20% phoenician
5% macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen


Bulgaria:
49%Thraker
11%macedonian
15%slavs
15%hellenen
5% pheonician


Macedonia:
30%macedonian
10% illyrian
15% hellenen
5%phoenician
20% germanic
5% hunnen
15% slavs


When we talk about macedonian roots, it defines the primitive tribe of the macedonian. The actual Macedonians are a political folk, but not a genetic. No country in Europe is today genetically homogen.

Inma Pazos
iGENEA
Tel. +41 (0)43 233 81 51
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 934090
United States
04/04/2010 11:59 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
This was shown on TV and millions of people saw it. I translated it into English so that the foreigners can understand it. Slavi Trifonov's comment about the lies and propaganda by newspapers and television in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia!
In FYROM there are no historians, but romanists - they think out historical facts or steal history from Bulgarians and Greeks... Of course don't forget - these people are very few, and the majority of the FYROM love Bulgaria and know their Bulgarian origin!!!

Slavi Trifonov's comment about the propaganda&lies in FYROM



[link to www.youtube.com]

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 12:05 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
This was shown on TV and millions of people saw it. I translated it into English so that the foreigners can understand it. Slavi Trifonov's comment about the lies and propaganda by newspapers and television in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia!
In FYROM there are no historians, but romanists - they think out historical facts or steal history from Bulgarians and Greeks... Of course don't forget - these people are very few, and the majority of the FYROM love Bulgaria and know their Bulgarian origin!!!

Slavi Trifonov's comment about the propaganda&lies in FYROM



[link to www.youtube.com]


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 934090



so you're presenting a BULGARIAN David Letterman (sarcastic talk show host) as a historical authority?????


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

go drink some more ouzo
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 221865
United States
04/04/2010 12:07 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Alexander the Great : Greek or SouthSlav
This was shown on TV and millions of people saw it. I translated it into English so that the foreigners can understand it. Slavi Trifonov's comment about the lies and propaganda by newspapers and television in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia!
In FYROM there are no historians, but romanists - they think out historical facts or steal history from Bulgarians and Greeks... Of course don't forget - these people are very few, and the majority of the FYROM love Bulgaria and know their Bulgarian origin!!!

Slavi Trifonov's comment about the propaganda&lies in FYROM



[link to www.youtube.com]





so you're presenting a BULGARIAN David Letterman (sarcastic talk show host) as a historical authority?????


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

go drink some more ouzo
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 221865




Stanislav Todorov Trifonov (Bulgarian: Станисла&#107​4; Тодоров Трифонов) (born October 18, 1966), known as Slavi Trifonov (Bulgarian: Слави Трифонов), is a Bulgarian showman, actor, singer and viola player born in Pleven (In Bulgarian:Плевен). Trifonov's music genres are pop-folk, pop-rock and punk, but he has experimented with other genres as a part of Ku-ku Band (Bulgarian: Ку-Ку Бенд).

He is the host of Slavi's Show, bTV's late-night talk show. It is styled after the standard U.S. late-night talk shows. Nevertheless, many topics and elements in the show's setup are aimed at providing a specific Bulgarian flavor.

News