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Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 03:30 PM
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Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
A pretty good editorial on the Canadian gun control debate.



4/6/2010 8:48:00 AM
Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Gun rights advocates in U.S. hope repeal will spur efforts here

Richard Moore
Investigative Reporter-Lakeland Times

After nearly 20 years, Canada appears poised to end one of its boldest experiments in gun control - the required registration of long guns, or shotguns and hunting rifles.

Last November, a bill to abolish the Long-Gun Registry, enacted in 1995 and gradually phased in through 2003, passed a second reading in the Canadian House of Commons by a tally of 164 to 137. It faces a third and final reading in that chamber later this year; prospects are good for passage in the Canadian Senate.

The bill would delete from federal law the obligation to register so-called nonrestricted firearms, though licensing requirements for long-gun owners to buy or possess firearms and to buy ammunition would remain in place.

The legislation would also require all registration information collected to date to be destroyed.

About 7 million long guns have been registered, but as many as 8 million guns, according to various estimates, have not been in what many say is outright defiance. The Conservative government has also extended to May 16, 2011, an existing amnesty for rifle and shotgun owners facing charges for failing to register their firearms.

Opponents cite runaway costs, gun rights, and lack of effectiveness in pushing the repeal measure. The author of the legislation, MP Candice Hoeppner, says the registration requirement pays lip service to reducing crime without actually doing so.

"Canadian taxpayers have shelled out $2 billion and counting to hassle hunters, farmers and sport shooters with registration requirements, while receiving nothing in return in crime reduction or prevention," Hoeppner told a recent gathering of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH).

In an article written for London Free Press, Hoeppner called the registry a "massive" policy failure.

"It makes no sense to force law-abiding individuals with firearms licenses to register their long-guns," she wrote. "It makes no sense to believe the registry will prevent a gun crime from taking place."

And, Hoeppner stated, the $2 billion could have been better spent.

"This money could have gone toward front-line police officers, or for programs to help our at-risk kids," she wrote. " . . . In order to make our communities truly safer we need to retool our criminal justice system and focus on the real problems. We need to strengthen the Criminal Code with tough anticrime and anti-gang measures and make sure criminals serve the time they deserve."

Hoeppner has also taken on those who say repeal is a measure aimed against women, the principal victims of domestic violence. In fact, she says, Liberals have called her a "showpiece" and "little foot solder" and have on multiple occasions told her to sit down and shut up.

"They are telling women who are part of families that farm, hunt or sport shoot to also sit down and be quiet," she wrote. "They are telling women if they don't think as the Liberals do on these issues, they should be silent."

Support for the registry

While the odds favor repeal, opponents still have a variety of parliamentary tactics they can use to stall the bill, while outside Parliament a sizable coalition also supports keeping the registry in place.

Advocates say repealing the registry will deprive front line police, suicide prevention and domestic violence prevention workers of an essential tool.

"Opponents of gun control claim rifles and shotguns are not a problem in Canada," said Denis Côté, president of the Quebec municipal police federation. "They are wrong. Rifles and shotguns make up a substantial proportion of the guns recovered in crime in this country. They are the guns most often used to kill police officers, in domestic violence situations and in suicides, particularly those involving youths."

In addition, supporters say police use the gun registry approximately 11,000 times a day, and so-called long guns are especially a problem in suicides.

Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control, said an American effort was behind the push to repeal the law.

"There is a well-funded, U.S. inspired campaign to misrepresent the facts," Cukier said. "Millions have been spent on targeted campaigns and strategies. Reports were withheld until after the registry vote. The opponents continue to invoke the costs of the registry, but the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) have stated clearly that dismantling the registration of rifles and shotguns will at most save $3 million a year, less than the cost of a complex murder investigation."

Organizations supporting the law include the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, the Canadian Police Association, the Canadian Association of Police Boards, the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians, the YWCA Canada, the Canadian Federation of University Women, the Canadian Association for Adolescent Health, le Barreau du Québec, la Fédération des femmes du Québec, the G-13 consortium of 13 national women's groups.

Arguments against

An equally vocal and perhaps politically stronger coalition has emerged against the registry, particularly the Ontario Federation of Anglers & Hunters and a wide array of sport shooters groups.

What's more, there are multiple grassroots groups, including the aptly named Canadian Unregistered Firearms Owners Association, which advocates peaceful, nonviolent but active civil disobedience.

Among other things, opponents allege, assertions that police search the registry 11,000 times a day is bogus because such things as routine traffic stops trigger automatic queries. Others have questioned the security of the system, which they say has been hacked, allowing unauthorized users to gain the personal information of gun owners, including their names and addresses.

Even worse than the security issue are the costs associated with the registry. An auditor general's report in 2002 found significant cost overruns over original government estimates.

In 1995, according to the audit, the government told Parliament the long-gun registry would involve a net cost of $2 million, with registration fees covering everything else. By May 2000, the government admitted, the costs had ballooned to at least $327 million.

By March 2005, the audit continued, the net cost was $946 million and, by the summer of 2006, costs had exceeded $1 billion. Parliament was misinformed about many of those costs, the auditor general concluded.

The price tag now stands at $2 billion.

What's more, according to the Public Safety Canada department, neither the costs incurred by provincial and territorial agencies in enforcing the legislation nor the costs carried by firearms owners and businesses to comply with the legislation have been calculated, and the agency cites two Library of Parliament studies estimating enforcement and compliance costs to run into hundreds of millions of dollars.

Vic Toews, now the nation's Minister of Public Safety and a former member of Parliament, has long supported repeal because of the costs associated with a law he says does not work.

"While the majority of Canadians support cost-effective gun-control programs, they also agree that the 2 billion in taxpayer dollars spent since 1995 on the mismanaged Liberal gun registry has not kept guns out of the hands of criminals," he said in 2006.

At the same time the government was throwing away that money, he said, other law enforcement services continued to suffer from funding cutbacks and staffing shortages, particularly along the borders.

Impact on crime

But what about the impact on crime? According to the current government, it has not reduced the crime rate.

There are nearly 7 million registered long guns in Canada, the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics reports. Yet, the public safety department adds, of 2,441 homicides recorded in Canada since mandatory long-gun registration was introduced in 2003, fewer than 2 percent (47) were committed with rifles and shotguns known to have been registered.

In addition, the department cites the Vancouver Police Strategic Plan of 2004-08, which pegs illegal smuggling by organized crime as the principal source of firearms.

"Indeed, the Vancouver police report that 97 percent of firearms seized in 2003 were illegal guns smuggled in from the United States, usually by organized crime," the public safety department states.

The bottom line is, criminals don't register firearms, says OFAH executive director Mike Reader.

"Instead of creating a paper chase for the law-abiding, the system needs to be revamped to focus on law breakers who use illegal firearms, many of them smuggled into Canada from the U.S., to commit crimes in our communities," Reader said.

Of course, Second Amendment advocates are closely watching the Canadian fight, hoping a repeal of the registry in Canada will blunt fledgling gun registration movements not only in the United States but in the United Nations.

"If all goes well in the Canadian parliament, Dominion gun owners will be freed from 14 years of living under the crushing weight of a bureaucratic, scandal-ridden, wasteful, invasive, $2 billion, error-ridden and inarguably worthless long gun registry," NRA executive vice-president Wayne LaPierre wrote in the March issue of American Hunter. "The registry has been proven a fraud in regard to promised minimal costs and significant impact on violent crime."

LaPierre quoted Dave Kopel, research director of the Independence Institute in Colorado, as saying, "Repeal of the Canadian registry would be of tremendous global significance. Repeal would also shatter the claim by the Canadian gun prohibition lobby that gun control in Canada is an irreversible ratchet."

That's huge on the world stage, LaPierre wrote, "and made all the more significant as a backdrop in the pending debate on the United Nations' global gun ban."

Richard Moore can be reached at rmmoore1@verizon.net
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 03:38 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
They had a poll on CTV newsnet and it was 91% in favor of abolishing the gun registry and 9% against dismantaling it.
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 03:39 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
The bill would delete from federal law the obligation to register so-called nonrestricted firearms, though licensing requirements for long-gun owners to buy or possess firearms and to buy ammunition would remain in place.

What's the difference between registering guns, and registering gun owners?

The Gestapo still knows who has them, when it's time to go pick them up.
Evil Twin

04/27/2010 03:42 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
It's a step in the right direction.
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 03:42 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
I doubt it will go away. Would be a great thing if it happened but I do not see it.

Such a waste of tax money but a great way of profiling all of those with firearms. God bless the police state.
MCRock
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04/27/2010 03:43 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Finally, here's something to pray for...
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 03:46 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Firearms registry likely to stay, says teacher

The federal Conservatives' ongoing fight to scrap the federal gun registry has the full support of Joe Michaels, who teaches firearms courses for the Nanaimo and District Fish and Game Protective Association.

Michaels has been opposed to the controversial legislation since it was first introduced by the former Liberal government in 1995, calling it a waste of money (the costs of the registry have jumped from just $2 million when initially proposed to about $1 billion) and an ineffective system that will do little to deter crime in Canada.

However, despite recent efforts by the Conservatives to garner enough parliamentary votes to fulfill its long-time promise to get rid of the gun registry, Michaels believes it's likely here to stay.

"The previous government has done a great job of convincing the Canadian people that guns are dangerous and the registry is needed to help ensure safety in our communities," he said Monday.

"Even though everyone I talk to knows that the registry is just a waste of time and money, there are many Canadians that have never handled a gun in their lives and are, unfortunately, ill-informed about the issues around firearms."

Stephen Harper's Conservative government has been successful in fracturing the Liberal Party's previously united stand that the gun registry must remain. Conservative backbencher Candice Hoeppner introduced a private member's bill last year to eliminate the registry and it passed by a 164-137 margin.

But Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff, who had permitted a free vote among his MPs, said he will "whip" the next vote among his MPs so that his caucus is unanimous in its opposition.

[link to www.canada.com]


This hits the nail on the head.....

"The previous government has done a great job of convincing the Canadian people that guns are dangerous and the registry is needed to help ensure safety in our communities," he said Monday.

"Even though everyone I talk to knows that the registry is just a waste of time and money, there are many Canadians that have never handled a gun in their lives and are, unfortunately, ill-informed about the issues around firearms."
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 04:24 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
I think it wil;l eventually be dismantled. It's been a dismal failure from conception. It's our Canadian way.

A large majority never registered their guns, an even larger majority registered only a few of their guns and hid the rest, and a small portion registered. We decided for ourselves how to handle a stupid and unjust law that a few idiots wanted.

I'm all for registering handguns and I sure as hell see no reason for myself or my neighbour to own an AK47 (?)

When criminals line up to register their guns then I'll back that foolish piece of utter insanity.

As it is the average Canadian has more guns than the average American.
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 04:41 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Awesome this is great news for once.
Thomas Dolby

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04/27/2010 04:45 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Canadian F
"So put your hands down my pants and I'll bet you'll feel nuts
Yes I'm Siskel, yes I'm Ebert and you're getting two thumbs up"


"So live each and every day that you may look any man in the face and tell him to go to hell...! Edgar Cayce, reading 1739-6
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 04:47 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
But do you think TPTB will allow this to happen ?
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 04:49 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Switzerland and the gun
Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

[link to news.bbc.co.uk]
:)
Etheric Equation

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04/27/2010 04:52 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
great

Last Edited by Emerald Isle on 04/27/2010 04:53 PM
That shrimp was there when I got dressed this morning -- A BP Employee to TSA
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 04:55 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
It appears that with spring time thea couple of frozen brains have started thawed and are able to funcion properly.

It's a step in the right direction.
ZTE

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04/27/2010 05:00 PM

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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
It's a step in the right direction.
 Quoting: Evil Twin



The only problem I have with this in the U.S. is that the money earned from these types registrations is one of the primary funds for State Wildlife and Conservation Departments (I'm talking about hunting/fishing registration and not gun; I know it's different, but only a stone's throw away).

Now, these departments usually are pretty good to the states, and they have been (in my state at least) supporting the states rather than siding with the FWS. I don't know about Florida, but Alabama's red snapper limits are being set at an all-time low by the FWS, but the ADCNR is fighting to extend the limits/time.

Now, most of these state agencies have drastically cut back their departments in this economy and are barely scraping by. So, if this was repealed in the U.S., then that would pretty much be the end of our state wildlife agencies. This means the FWS, would come in and take over without any opposition from the states.

And of course, the FWS would require national registrations if this happened, which will probably cost more than what we have now.

Last Edited by Zedakah on 04/27/2010 05:54 PM
If you can justify killing one man, you can justify killing every man.

The Greatest Lie is the one never told, but assumed.

History isn't a measure of our successes, but the compilation of our mistakes.
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 05:31 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Free men have guns, slaves don't.
arbourjay
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04/27/2010 05:52 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
In order to own/purchase a non-restricted firearm in Canada you must be licensed. To get your license, you must take a 10 hour course on non-restricted firearms, and pass the written and practical test. If you pass, you have the right to apply for your license.

The licensing requires you to submit a photo of yourself, with a guarantors signature saying the photo is you.
You then need three refrence's sinatures.

Part of the application process deals with any criminal history or mental illness etc.

If you have a spouse, or ex-spouse they also must sign the application, if they do not, they will be contacted by the Chief Firearms Officer, informing them you are trying to obtain a firarms license.

You send in $60.00 with your application. Approximately 45 days after they recieve your application and all the background checks clear, you then recieve your license.

The only thing the government will not know is how many firearms licensed law abiding citizens have.

I doubt most criminals take the non-restricted safety course, which is the pre-requiste for the restricted firearm course. I also doubt they register their guns.

Canadian F
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 05:58 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
They had a poll on CTV newsnet and it was 91% in favor of abolishing the gun registry and 9% against dismantaling it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 901085



Oh well then, since CTV said so!! CTV = FOX American Television pumped into the homes of the poorest who only get one channel! Sigh.....
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 06:32 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
applause2

Canadian F
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 06:50 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
The only thing the government will not know is how many firearms licensed law abiding citizens have.

I doubt most criminals take the non-restricted safety course, which is the pre-requiste for the restricted firearm course. I also doubt they register their guns.

Canadian F
 Quoting: arbourjay 954768


Yes, sadly, it is a huge disadvantage for generally 'good' people and a huge advantage to those who are not generally 'good'.
:(

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."
- Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764.
[link to www.libertystickers.com]
guitars n cadillacs

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04/27/2010 07:05 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Good for Canada............Oh Canada la la la la lala.

cdnrock
FUCK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 07:24 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
But do you think TPTB will allow this to happen ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 833035



No. Easy UN money laundering government program.

I will be shocked if they actually do. There should be NO registry whatsoever (except perhaps handguns but even then I am not sold on it).

The pressure is on for them to remove it in rural areas. No person living around me was for this piece of crap registry and most do not believe they will remove the money laundering program.
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 07:48 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
more guns per capita than the US as we speak right now anyway ( proabaly don't really need more) ...rifles mostly too-not pussy little .22 calibre spray and pray love tap kisses the rappers cap off either that take 20 shots just to injure somebody
weegie

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04/27/2010 08:34 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
So, have they finally figured out that the CRIMINALS didn't register the guns they would use for crimes...like murder, robbery, and all that jazz? The people could have told them that and saved a lot of money, but politicians are politicians no matter what country they happen to live in.
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 08:34 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
carefull all.they may be trying to flush some out. this is not a guv that desereves trust. no what i mean. careful what you say. nuf said.
Grizzled Old Goat

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04/27/2010 08:46 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
carefull all.they may be trying to flush some out. this is not a guv that desereves trust. no what i mean. careful what you say. nuf said.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 868423


WHAT?
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 09:00 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
carefull all.they may be trying to flush some out. this is not a guv that desereves trust. no what i mean. careful what you say. nuf said.


WHAT?
 Quoting: Grizzled Old Goat

careful what you post.
Grizzled Old Goat

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04/27/2010 09:07 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
carefull all.they may be trying to flush some out. this is not a guv that desereves trust. no what i mean. careful what you say. nuf said.


WHAT?

careful what you post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 868423


lol

Puhleeeze..

They couldn't fix a pot hole with a nuclear powered pothole fixing machine..
Resister

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04/27/2010 09:12 PM

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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
Welcome back from the abyss Canada!
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Anonymous Coward
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04/27/2010 09:17 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
carefull all.they may be trying to flush some out. this is not a guv that desereves trust. no what i mean. careful what you say. nuf said.


WHAT?

careful what you post.


lol

Puhleeeze..

They couldn't fix a pot hole with a nuclear powered pothole fixing machine..
 Quoting: Grizzled Old Goat

thats one arm the other arm is capable of much. the people are the enemy to them.
Samuel Adams

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04/27/2010 09:18 PM
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Re: Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns
applause2

Thank You Canada
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

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