Seek Jesus X days Countdown Explanation

worthless, religious :bs:

Solution: believe in Yourself; Love Yourself

Non believers need not post please.

How pointless is it to bash the beliefs of others, when it changes nothing, for scoffers are already known to come to us speaking the very words you utter.

The failure to realize this truth, is merely a reflection of your own ignorance.

Daniel 9:25-26 = February 5th, 1962

bump

anyone who's serious?

Why are you soooo afraid of non-beleivers? It is the fear of their questions, I am thinking because, I asked you to answer a few questions for me in your previous thread. Instead of answering them, you came here and bashed unbelievers. Aren't you supposed to WELCOME unbelievers so that they can come to the kingdom of heaven, like you? If you know the truth, like you say you do, then why do you run from questions? You should welcome questions, especially because you call unbelievers "ignorant." So I will dog your threads for the next 20 days or so and wait until you disappear. LOL

I am very serious....

Daniel 9:25-26 refers to 02/05/1962....

pic:
[link to revelation13.net]

None of this is true.
Your private interpretation of the scriptures is completely false and is in no way supported by the Word of God.

anyone not having a problem with it ?

I'm by no means afraid of questioning or non believers, that's rediculas. My point that you seem to have missed was that this thread was for believers of this prophecy to hash this out, and that it wasn't of any use for non believers to wast words here.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer your questions on another thread and I'm not calling non believers ignorant, you misunderstood me and should reread my statement. It's ignorant to bash beliefs was my words, as this thread is meant for clarification of scripture.

To say this explanation is wrong without offering your own interpretation is also ignorant, so please try to provide details of why this is wright or wrong.

Okay, so what's the significance of 02/05/1962 and how does it specifically relate or calculate to Daniel 9?

Do you guys know that Daniel was bound to servitude to Babylon for the prophesied 70 years which Jeremiah foretold?

Wow, this is the type of stupidity I'm afraid of, you say my "private interpretation" is false but won't help me to better understand?

I don't understand the point of such comments.

No peace treaty is coming and there is no rapture as Christians have been dupped. How do you explain all the folks that never even heard of "Jesus", do they go to hell?

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The above passage is frequently quoted to support a "secret" rapture, that neither the saved or the lost will be aware of what is happening at the time. Supposedly, millions of Christians will be "taken" and simply disappear mysteriously, leaving the world wondering where they went. Just what does this passage really intend to teach? Well, first let's look at a parallel passage in Matthew:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
...
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Note that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the second coming of the Lord. Clearly in in days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the second coming. Now notice that in Luke 17, verse 37, a question is asked: "Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together". This answer given by Jesus refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain at the second coming. (See also Rev 19:20-21) So Jesus was not teaching a silent or secret rapture of the righteous away from the world. He was making it clear, that at His second coming, all the wicked will be taken and slain first, before the righteous are taken to heaven. This destruction of the wicked is completely ignored by those teaching the secret rapture.

The Second Coming Described

The following verses all show that with respect to the second coming, Jesus will indeed come quickly-

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And the following verses refer to the second coming of Jesus as being like a thief for the wicked-

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

It should be quite clear that all the above verses are indeed referring to the second coming of Jesus. He will come quickly, like lightning, as a thief upon the unsuspecting wicked of the world. But is it a secret, silent event?

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It will be the noisiest, most climactic event in history, not a silent, mysterious secret.

The Parable of the Tares of the Field.

Now, in the book of Matthew, Jesus tells a parable about the end of the world, which is intended to explain some end time events of the second coming:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Note the timing of events Jesus describes, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of God are still among them. Advocates of the popular pre-tribulation rapture propose that all righteous Christians will first be taken up by Jesus secretly, in an instant, leaving behind a totally non-Christian world in startled ignorance of why a significant portion of the population has simply disappeared off the face of the earth. The secret rapture theory is the reverse sequence of the parable as told by Jesus, and so can be dismissed on this point alone! Jesus in the book of Matthew again confirms that the wicked will be taken out from among the righteous:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Lesson of Noah and the flood, and Lot and Sodom

The 17th chapter of Luke, which we began this study with, again makes it plain that the wicked will all perish at the return of Christ:

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The lesson is clear. Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the second coming. They will all perish.

The Seven Last Plagues.

Now let me point out an interesting fact. Revelation 16 relates the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and THEN in verse 15-

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Clearly Jesus HAS NOT COME YET AT THE TIME OF THE SIXTH PLAGUE! Note that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Jesus at the time of the seventh plague is announcing that time for earth has come to an end, and the second coming follows immediately. So Jesus does not come back to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful church was NOT removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them:

Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

So the wicked will suffer the 7 last plagues, while the people of God are still present with them on this earth.

Does the Second Coming Happen Secretly?

There are two verses where Jesus himself described exactly how he would come back to this earth. These words were spoken to the high priest of the Jews - Caiaphas:

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus says that Caiaphas will be alive (resurrected) to see him return in his full glory, in the clouds of heaven. This is a significant key to his return. It is a direct link to -

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So as the above study shows:


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(1). AFTER THE 7 PLAGUES OF REV 16 FALL ON THE WICKED, AND NOT BEFORE, JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS.


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(2). EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIS COMING.


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The return of Jesus (in the clouds) will be witnessed by every living person on this earth at the time. In addition, those who had a part in the crucifixion of Jesus (pierced him) will be resurrected to witness this glorious event as well, to include Caiaphas.

Jesus coming in the clouds is mentioned in the following texts as well. It is an important discriminator between the genuine coming of Jesus and the impersonation of Jesus by Satan-

Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(3). HE COMES IN HIS FULL POWER AND GLORY, TO THEN REWARD EVERY MAN.


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If, as we have established in point (3), every eye will see him coming in all his glory, what is the fate of the then living wicked who behold him?

Exo 33:20 And he (God/Jesus) said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
Deu 5:26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

2 Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished....

The wicked who see Jesus at the second coming will perish, because sinful man cannot look upon the face of God in His full glory and live. Just as the parable of the wheat and tares declares (Matt 13:24-43), the wicked will all perish first, before the righteous are gathered.


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(4). THE WICKED WILL ALL BE SLAIN AT JESUS' SECOND COMING BY THE FIRE OF HIS RIGHTEOUS GLORY, TO BE RESURRECTED AFTER THE 1000 YEARS.


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But doesn't Isaiah 66:19-25 describe a picture of idyllic conditions during the millennial reign of Jesus on earth? No. It is true this has to be describing conditions here on earth because it states death will still occur in verse 20. So what is this passage dealing with? It is describing how the Jews would be living today, now - if they had accepted the Messiah. They would be truly blessed of God, infant mortality would be unknown, people would die no sooner than the age of 100, etc. The reason that this did not happen is evident at the cross, the unbelief of Israel.


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(5). HE COMES WITH ALL THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN.


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But what of Zec 14:4, 5 and Jude 14. They both state that Jesus will come with saints. Doesn't this prove the saints are in heaven before the second coming? No, these are references to the third coming of Jesus, when he does come with all the saints in the New Jerusalem <NOBR>(Rev 21:2),</NOBR> but that is AFTER the 1000 years, for the great white throne judgment of all the resurrected wicked <NOBR>(Rev 20:11).</NOBR>

Matthew 24 gives us the timing of the gathering or rapture of the saints - after the tribulation and after the second coming. Verse 27 says He will come like lightning, the seven last plagues are the tribulation of verse 29. Verse 30 is the second coming, with the angels of God gathering the righteous in verse 31. Now notice verse 33-

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So clearly Matt 24 is relating events that would be happening shortly prior to the second coming of Jesus and the gathering of the righteous, so-


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(6). ALL THE RIGHTEOUS ARE GATHERED TOGETHER AFTER THE COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF JESUS (THE SECOND COMING), THAT EVERY EYE WILL SEE - NOT BEFORE.


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And in what form will Jesus return, in spirit, or in the flesh?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


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(7). HE WAS TAKEN TO HEAVEN IN THE FLESH, HE WILL RETURN IN THE FLESH.


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What will He bring with Him when He returns?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


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(. THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD ARE RAISED FIRST, THEN THE RIGHTEOUS LIVING ARE TRANSFORMED, THEIR REWARD IS ETERNAL LIFE, RECEIVED AT THE SECOND COMING.


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In the Old Testament, the story of Israel's bondage in Egypt is an example of the what will happen in the end times.

The Plagues on Egypt

1. Exo 7:17- Water to blood
2. Exo 8:2- Frogs
3. Exo 8:16- Lice
4. Exo 8:21- Flies
5. Exo 9:3 - Egyptian cattle died
6. Exo 9:9- Boils
7. Exo 9:18- Burning hail
8. Exo 10:4- Locusts
9. Exo 10:21- Darkness
10. Exo 12:12- Judgment to be executed
..... Exo 12:13- First born of Israel saved by the blood of the lamb.
....................... (the blood of the lamb represents the blood of Jesus)
..... Exo 12:29- First born of Egypt slain

GOD'S PEOPLE ARE SET FREE FROM EGYPTIAN BONDAGE


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Just as the plagues fell on Egypt, the last seven plagues will fall on the wicked before the second coming. Note that the last plague, immediately prior to the release of God's people, was the firstborn of Egypt being slain? This is symbolic of the destruction of the wicked (tares) at the second coming, prior to the gathering of the righteous (wheat) when God's people are set free from sin, as described in Matthew 13.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Note that judgment has been decided BEFORE the second coming, Jesus comes with his reward for every man. The judgment is carried out, the separation of sheep and goats, wheat and tares, happens once at the second coming. Matthew 25 also supports the second advent rapture. Those who are not ready at the appointed time will be shut-out. There is no second chance.


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(9). JUDGMENT IS EXECUTED AT THE SECOND COMING. THERE WILL BE NO SECOND CHANCES TO BE SAVED IN THE MILLENNIUM.


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Did the plagues of Egypt affect or harm the Jews?

Exo 9:6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.

Exo 9:26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.

So how are the plagues on Egypt significant? How do they relate to the second coming?

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them (the Jews) for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

They are an example for us to use to understand exactly what will happen in the end times. Again see Psalms 91:5-11. The plagues on Egypt demonstrate that God's people will live through the period of the last 7 plagues and be unaffected by them, by the power of God's protection.


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(10). YOU CAN ONLY BE SAVED BY YOUR FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS TO COVER YOUR SINS, AND BY THIS FAITH YOU WILL ENDURE HIS PLAGUES UNTOUCHED.


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Are there any other types of this kind, where God's people are protected untouched? Yes-

The flood of Noah - Gen 7
The fiery furnace of Babylon - Dan 3
The lion's den of Babylon - Dan 6

Jesus Himself established this principle beyond question, note His words:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The righteous of the end times need not be removed from this earth to be kept safe from the plagues that Jesus Himself pours out. The testimony of Jesus makes that clear.

But isn't Rev 4:1, when John is called up into heaven, a type of the rapture, proving the rest of Revelation does not apply to the church? No. As Rev 4:2 explains, John was in the spirit. He was seeing visions of the future but he did not actually enter heaven. This was the second time that John was in the spirit, the first is Rev 1:10. He was also in the spirit in Rev 17:3 and Rev 21:10. To point to Rev 4:1 and claim it is the rapture, as some prominent pre-trib people do, can not be supported. As Rev 16:15 shows, Jesus has still not yet come between the sixth and seventh plagues (vials/bowls). The church is still on earth living through the plagues.

But what of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19)?

How does this apply? Doesn't this contradict the second advent rapture principle being established here? Didn't Lot have to leave the city to be saved? Wouldn't he have suffered the fate of the wicked if he had stayed? Yes, he would have. Aha! Pre-tribulation rapture proved!!! No, not exactly. What are Sodom and Gomorrah types (examples) of in the end times? At what point MUST you be removed (from something) so as to not feel the wrath of God in the end times? Does the Bible tell us?

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Sodom and Gomorrah are a type of spiritual Babylon (apostate religion) in the end times.

2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

There is another type of spiritual Babylon in the Old Testament in Joshua 6:20,21 after the seven trumpets have been blown seven times and the walls of Jericho fell. The inhabitants of Jericho were all slain with the exception of Rahab the harlot and her family, in a story remarkably similar to the Passover. The seven trumpets are types of the trumpets of Revelation. Jericho represents Babylon in Revelation 18 and Rahab and her family represent those called out of harlot Babylon, before it and everyone in it, is utterly destroyed, yet Rahab did not need to physically leave Jericho in order to be saved.


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(11). IF TODAY YOU ARE IN SPIRITUAL BABYLON YOU MUST LEAVE IT OR YOU WILL RECEIVE THE PLAGUES OF GOD IN THE END TIMES.


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Now look at the last 7 plagues -

THE SEVEN FINAL PLAGUES
(number = Egyptian counterpart)


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1. Rev 16:2- Terrible sores (6)
2. Rev 16:3- The sea to blood (1)
3. Rev 16:4- The fresh water to blood (1)
4. Rev 16:8- Scorched by the sun
5. Rev 16:10- Darkness on spiritual Babylon (9)
6. Rev 16:10- Loss of support for spiritual Babylon
......................Frog like plague of unclean spirits (2)
7. Rev 16:17- Great earthquake and large hail (7)
......................Spiritual Babylon (Apostates) judged

GOD'S PEOPLE SET FREE FROM SIN AT THE SECOND COMING


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A review of points established about the second coming "rapture":


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(1). AFTER THE 7 PLAGUES OF REV 16 FALL ON THE WICKED, AND NOT BEFORE, JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS.

(2). EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIS COMING.

(3). HE COMES IN HIS FULL POWER AND GLORY, TO THEN REWARD EVERY MAN.

(4). THE WICKED WILL ALL BE SLAIN AT HIS SECOND COMING BY THE FIRE OF HIS RIGHTEOUS GLORY, TO BE RESURRECTED AFTER THE 1000 YEARS.

(5). HE COMES WITH ALL THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN.

(6). ALL THE RIGHTEOUS ARE GATHERED TOGETHER AFTER THE COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF JESUS (THE SECOND COMING), THAT EVERY EYE WILL SEE - NOT BEFORE.

(7). HE WAS TAKEN TO HEAVEN IN THE FLESH, HE WILL RETURN IN THE FLESH.

(. THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD ARE RAISED FIRST, THEN THE RIGHTEOUS LIVING ARE TRANSFORMED, THEIR REWARD IS ETERNAL LIFE, RECEIVED AT THE SECOND COMING.

(9). JUDGMENT IS EXECUTED AT THE SECOND COMING. THERE WILL BE NO SECOND CHANCES TO BE SAVED IN THE MILLENNIUM.

(10). YOU CAN ONLY BE SAVED BY YOUR FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS TO COVER YOUR SINS, AND BY THIS FAITH YOU WILL ENDURE HIS PLAGUES UNTOUCHED.

(11). IF TODAY YOU ARE IN SPIRITUAL BABYLON YOU MUST LEAVE IT OR YOU WILL RECEIVE THE PLAGUES OF GOD IN THE END TIMES.


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

I think the above 11 points are clearly derived by allowing the Bible to explain itself. Note that the pre-tribulation rapture advocates generally all say:

1. None of the seals have been opened.
2. None of the trumpets have sounded.
3. The Antichrist has not yet been revealed.
4. The form of the mark of the beast is not yet completely known.
5. The Seal of God is not yet clear.
6. The False Prophet is still unidentified.
7. The church will leave in the rapture prior to the antichrist, plagues and mark of the beast.
8. If you miss the rapture, you will get a second chance during the millennium, when God will rule on this earth for the 1000 years.
9. God is dealing differently with the Jews today, when compared to the Gentiles.

In each case, scriptural evidence can be presented which proves each of their points to be incorrect. Here I have dealt mostly with point #7, but do you notice there is a trend of ignorance and lack of concern advocated by pre-tribbers? They say that since the righteous will leave this earth before most of the events of the end times, you need not be concerned with any of it. Interesting stuff they say, but not really relevant to today's believer. Besides, according to them, what you do now does not matter anyway, you will get a second chance in the millennium. Nothing could be farther from the truth - it is a satanic lie. If your church advocates the pre-tribulation rapture, I submit that you are being misled and need to study the matter closely for yourself, and perhaps find a new church that teaches the truth.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?

In the prevailing view of Bible prophecy, the well known passage in Daniel chapter 9 concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel is commonly interpreted to put forth the proposition that the Antichrist will make a 7 year treaty with the Jewish people. But is this proposition actually accurate, and if it is not, what are the implications for the rather large cluster of prophetic interpretations that rest upon this idea of a treaty that will be broken "in the midst of the week?" (Daniel 9:27)

Daniel's 70th week is one of the premier prophetic passages in the entire Bible - but it has been distorted to the point where the interpretation that is popularly offered is so far off from what the text actually says that most believers simply take the interpretation for granted. This traditional interpretation has become so deeply ingrained that study Bibles routinely offer it in their margin notes. Indeed, few people are aware that it is this very text that is the primary passage used to teach the faulty idea of a 7-year tribulation, and the fictional 7-year treaty. The truth is, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that teaches either concept.

The key to Daniel's 70 Week passage is found in the summary of what is to occur during a period described as "70 weeks." That summary occurs in Daniel 9:24:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to

[a] finish the transgression

and to make an end of sins,

[c] and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

[d] and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

[e] and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

[f] and to anoint the most holy."

Various sequential aspects of the prophecy are then detailed, including how long it will be until the coming of "Messiah the prince," and how long His ministry will last. These details are found in verses 25 and 26. Then the prophecy bluntly informs us that after the Messiah has come and gone, an unnamed "people" will come and destroy "the city and the sanctuary." (verse 26)

The last aspect of the prophecy elaborates on the destruction of the sanctuary and the abominations that are to occur. It even describes the reason for the devastation as the text tells us it is "...for the overspreading of abominations [that] he shall make it desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Once again, it's crucial that we see that Jesus the Messiah is the fulfillment of these prophecies - and the totality of what He accomplishes is in verse 24. One may simply read through the points of verse 24 and ask WHO fulfills each and every aspect of the prophecy? The answer is JESUS CHRIST.

Another way to approach this is to reverse the perspective. Does the Antichrist "finish the transgression?" Of course not. Can it be said that the Beast is the one who will "make an end of sins?" Obviously not. Does the Son of Perdition "make reconciliation for iniquity?" The answer is self-evident. Does the wicked one "seal up the vision and prophecy?" He does not. And does the Antichrist "anoint the most holy?" Of course not.

The focal point of the entire prophecy is JESUS CHRIST. It may also be instructive to recognize that because we are reading this prophecy so many years after its fulfillment we don't fully appreciate the incredible accuracy in it. We need to point out that Daniel's incredible work was written about 550 years before JESUS was born!

It's worth noting that the coming of the Messiah was always the central hope implied in virtually every prophecy. The belief that God would send a Messiah is the great historic longing that existed in almost every historic time period of Israel and Judah. One of the great wonders of this prophecy is that it not only provided precious details about the arrival of the Messiah, it even included a countdown to the events that would lead to His arrival!

Conversely, the Antichrist is never mentioned. There is no mention of a 7-year treaty, nor a 7-year tribulation. All of those understandings have been artificially attached to the prophecy. The central message in this entire prophecy is the arrival of the Messiah, and what will happen once He arrives. Having said that, let's take it chronologically.

The first part of the prophecy, after the summary in verse 24, breaks down the period into separate components. Verse 25 says that "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks." Most prophecy teachers have recognized the 'year for a day' principle in this prophetic language. Under this perspective, each "week" is seen as a seven year period. Thus, the first period of "seven weeks" may accurately be depicted as seven seven-year periods - or 49 years. The second period of "threescore and two weeks" (which is 62 weeks) may be seen as 62 seven-year periods, or 434 years. That totals 69 "weeks" or 483 years - leaving only the third period of one "week" (7 years) for the total of 70 weeks.

What the text is saying is that the commandment to build Jerusalem will trigger three time periods. To offer a rough paraphrase, it's telling us the commandment will be given, then 49 years later something related to the prophecy will happen. Then a period of 434 years will elapse, and then the Messiah will arrive. The last period of 7 years will then elapse. A characterization of the first portion of the prophecy is added when the text tells us the time when the sanctuary is to be rebuilt will be "troublous."

Textual evidence in the historical books of Nehemiah and Ezra suggest that it took about 49 years to rebuild the wall and the temple after the command to construct them was given by the Persian king Cyrus: "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah." (Ezra 1:2).

After the initial building period of 49 years elapsed, the second period of 434 years went by with almost nothing occurring that was related to the messianic expectation. This second period is the period between the last book of the Old Testament (Malachi) and the coming of Jesus Christ - and it turns out to be 434 years!

It is at this point that the gigantic error is made in the prophetic interpretation - and it changes the meaning of almost everything. Because the prophecy is broken up into 3 period (49 years, 434 years, and 7 years), prophecy interpreters claim that the prophecy was "suspended" after the Messiah arrived, and the last 7 year period, which they identify as the tribulation, was pushed far into the future. They then say the Antichrist will emerge and inaugurate that last 7-year period. The problem is, the text never actually says any of that, nor does it even infer a gap between the 69th and 70th week.

The Messiah arrives after the 2nd period of 434 years (62 weeks in the text). There is no reason to believe the unfolding of the timeline stops at that point. Thus, the Messiah arrives at the beginning of the 70th week and it commenced when He arrived. Remember, the focus of the prophecy is on the Messiah who must accomplish everything specified within the 70-week period.

After the Messiah arrives, the text simply continues with the chronological description: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off...." (Daniel 9:26) This verse is simply saying that after the second period of 434 years (the 62 weeks) has gone by, the Messiah is to be "cut off." It then continues the chronological statement from the point of the 'cutting off' and says that at some unspecified time after the Messiah is cut off, "the city and the sanctuary" will be destroyed.

In the next verse, the prophecy provides us with the details of the cutting off of the Saviour. Again, the focal point of the entire prophecy is the Messiah, so after He arrives, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...." (Daniel 9:27) This is precisely what would be expected as when He arrived, there would be "one week" left to the 70 weeks. The obvious question should be how can the Antichrist suddenly get inserted into this prophecy and "confirm" a covenant that has never been mentioned? Indeed, the Antichrist himself has never been mentioned in the entire text!

Furthermore, it's useful to recognize that the term covenant is not the same term as the word treaty. We separate the Bible into the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the word "testament" is interchangeable with the term covenant (see Hebrews 9:15). On the other hand, a treaty is a political instrument that is used between nations - not a sacred agreement between God and man.

In the Old Testament, God made an agreement with man that if the people will adhere to His "covenant," He will protect and keep them and be their God. This is articulated in Exodus with the children of Israel where God says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people...." (Exodus 19:5). In the very passage in question in Daniel, which is prophetic on its face, God further promises that He will bring the Messiah who will confirm the covenant that He has already made.

Although it is a new covenant in that it brings out certain characteristics that were somewhat veiled in the Old Testament, because it is a covenant with Israel, it is actually a renewal of the covenant that God made through Moses. Thus in Jeremiah, God says "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...." (Jeremiah 31:31)

Therefore, about 50 years after God promised to Jeremiah that He would remember Israel with another covenant that will build upon the existing covenant, He tells Daniel that "the Messiah the Prince...shall confirm the covenant with many...." (Daniel 9:25, 27).

The New Testament writers recognized this as the Apostle Paul explicitly wrote on the subject when he stated "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after...." (Galatians 3:17) Through this confirmation, we learn that Christ is the heir of all the promises. He is the Seed of Abraham upon whom the blessings are bestowed, and He is the only one who "brings in everlasting righteousness." (Daniel 9:2).

The twist on the truth that has come to dominate the prophetic expectations of so many millions will reap a bitter harvest. As vast numbers of Christians are deceived on this subject, their lives and actions are predicated on a false understanding of the immediate future - and the fruit of it will be dreadful. Very few understand the enormous spiritual ramifications of embracing significant error in our prophetic perspective. Indeed, it was the fact that Israel did not recognize the time of their visitation from God that brought the nation of Israel to "the overspreading of abominations" that were the natural outgrowth of their refusal to recognize Jesus as their promised Messiah.

Literally millions upon millions of believers are now similarly deceived in that the person explicitly described in the scriptures as the MESSIAH is actually seen as the Antichrist. Our Saviour told the Pharisees that attributing the works of God to the Devil was the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31). The blind religious leaders of yesteryear claimed the person doing the miracles in their presence was actually a vessel of the Devil. The truth was, that person was Jesus Christ and the Jewish leaders committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in their refusal to recognize Jesus was the individual prophesied of in Daniel 9:27.

How is it any different when the modern day Pharisees, the denominational Christians of our time, are now claiming these magnificent prophecies apply to the Antichrist, when the exact opposite is true as these words testify of the awesome truth of "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ?" (Titus 2:13) As the import of this great truth sinks in, it affects practically everything - including the actual identity of the chosen people, our individual standing in Christ, and the immediate future of America in a prophetic context.

The very fact that most "believers" will simply discard this pointed exegesis testifies that it is the organized churches that have perpetrated the great fraud that Christendom finds herself entangled in. And because of their lazy refusal to study the truth of the scriptures on a personal level - instead relying upon the false doctrines of their hireling shepherds - we will shortly see the big surprise in which so many that thought they were saved will be turned away. The scriptures will not be broken, and they tell us it is "for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience." (Colossians 3:6)

April 21, 2003 - James Lloyd

Copyright © 2003 Christian Media Network

How is is possible for a believer to tell a non-believer to not post?

Where's the Logic?

Without Logic, there would be NO God and without God, there would be NO Logic!

That's why God likes Math. :5:

Ribbit

Maranatha!

Wow, I feel like GLP is all a bunch of kids, who just like to ridicule, argue in circles, and say stupid shit like this.

The Logic frog man is to convey to grown folks that this thread was for believers in scripture to debate. Therefore, I ask that non believers not waste words of belief bashing.

GET IT!

The bible tells us the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That's partly why I'm here... this thing called the Internet and Social Networking is connecting us all.

ALL will have had the chance to accept him!

NEVERFEAR - why not just copy the entire word of GOD.

I just can't believer all these comments, which seem to accomplish nothing.

I just wanted to debate the interpretation of Daniel 9 and the 70 Weeks, but apparently that's not possible.

It seems we can not communicate with each other to better our understanding of such things, so I'll just wash my hands of this one and say time will tell all.

It's not hard to see we're reaching Revelations, and I believe a lot more will be revealed in the next couple years.

I wonder if they'll say Aliens abducted us?

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man - Luke 21:36

Hope to be outty soon.

Peace, Love, God Bless Yaz!

Wow, you spent a whole 39 minutes on a few paragraphs, (plus pecking out your reply,) and then you throw in the towel? Amazing!

What kind of gutless wonder are you anyway!?!?

I have posted those responses 100 times, which means I have read them 200 times, and I'm still learning from them.

fyi, your response is the lamest I have ever encountered!

It's OK to be stupid, but it's not OK to stay that way!

I'm sorry! I didn't realize you were "living on Tulsa Time" (aka: Perfect Thinking Time).

"Even God can't win an argument against stupidity, when Stupidity is judging the contest."

GET IT?

Ribbit

Last Edited by Butt Ugly Toad on 04/28/2010 10:22 PM

Stupid does not equal Tired of Stupidity

And I did not call you or anyone stupid, but you called someone stupid that used intelligent words and formed them quite well and I can't see any stupidity in their werds.

Just my nickel! ;)

Ribbit

Last Edited by Butt Ugly Toad on 04/28/2010 10:28 PM

The Power of Stupidity

Here are Five Laws of Stupidity

First Law:
We always underestimate the number of stupid people. This is not as obvious as it sounds, because: people we had thought to be rational and intelligent suddenly turn out to be unquestionably stupid; and, day after day we are hampered in whatever we do by stupid people who invariably turn up in the least appropriate places. It is impossible to set a percentage, because any number we choose will be too small.

Second Law:
The probability of a person being stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person. If you study the frequency of stupidity in the people who come to clean up classrooms after hours, you find that it is much higher than you expected. You assume that this is related to their lower level of education, or to the fact that non-stupid people have better chances of obtaining good jobs. But when you analyze students or University professors, the distribution is exactly the same. Militant feminists may be incensed, but the stupidity factor is the same in both genders (or as many genders, or sexes, as you may choose to consider). No difference in the sigma factor, can be found by race, color, ethnic heritage, education, etcetera.

Third (and Golden) Law:
A stupid person is someone who causes damage to another person, or a group of people, without any advantage accruing to himself (or herself) -- or even with some resultant self-damage. (We shall come back to this, because it is the pivotal concept.)

Fourth Law:
Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid people. They constantly forget that at any moment, and in any circumstance, associating with stupid people invariably constitutes an expensive mistake. That (I would say) suggests that non-stupid people are a bit stupid -- but I shall get back to this point at the end.

Fifth Law:
A stupid person is the most dangerous person in existence. This is probably the most widely understood of the Laws, if only because it is common knowledge that intelligent people, hostile as they might be, are predictable, while stupid people are not. Moreover, its basic corollary: A stupid person is more dangerous than a bandit.

There are four types of people, depending on their behavior in a transaction:

Hapless
Someone whose actions tend to generate self-damage, but also to create advantage for someone else.

Intelligent
Someone whose actions tend to generate self-advantage, as well as advantage for others.

Bandit
Someone whose actions tend to generate self-advantage while causing damage to others.

Stupid
We already have this definition in the Third Law.

[ Three Corollaries Listed Below ]

In a world populated exclusively by "perfect bandits," the system as a whole would be balanced; damage and advantage would cancel each other out. The same effect would occur in a world populated by "perfectly hapless" people. Of course intelligent people make the biggest contribution to society as a whole. But, nasty as it may sound, intelligent bandits also contribute to an improvement in the balance of society by causing more advantage than harm overall.

"Hapless-intelligent" people, though they lose individually, can also have socially positive effects. However, when stupidity gets into the act, the damage is enormously greater than the benefit to anyone. This proves the original point: the single most dangerous factor in any human society is stupidity.

Intelligent people generally know they are, bandits are well aware of their attitude, and even hapless people have a sneaking suspicion that all is not right. But stupid people don't know they are stupid, and that is one more reason why they are extremely dangerous.

Which of course leads me back to my original, agonizing question: am I stupid?

I have passed several IQ tests with good marks. Unfortunately, I know how these tests work and that they don't prove anything. Several people have told me I am intelligent. But that doesn't prove anything, either. They may simply be too kind to tell me the truth. Conversely, they could be attempting to use my stupidity for their own advantage. Or they could be just as stupid as I am. I am left with one little glimpse of hope: quite often, I am intensely aware of how stupid I am (or have been). And this indicates that I am not completely stupid.

First Corollary:
In each of us there is a factor of stupidity, which is always larger than we suppose (I explained that in my original "stupidity" paper).

Second Corollary:
When the stupidity of one person combines with the stupidity of others, the impact grows geometrically -- i.e. by multiplication, not addition, of the individual stupidity factors. It seems to be a generally accepted concept that "the sum of a network increases as the square of the number of members" and it seems quite obvious that the same criterion applies to the combination of stupidity factors in individual people. This can help to explain the well-known fact that crowds as a whole are much more stupid than any individual person in the crowd.

Third corollary:
The combination of intelligence in different people has less impact than the combination of stupidity, because "non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid people"

Stupidity is brainless -- it doesn't need to think, get organized or plan ahead to generate a combined effect. The transfer and combination of intelligence is a much more complex process.

Stupid people can combine instantly into a super-stupid group or mass, while intelligent people are effective as a group only when they know each other well and are experienced in working together. The creation of well-tuned groups of people sharing intelligence can generate fairly powerful anti-stupidity forces, but (unlike stupidity bundling) they need organized planning and upkeep; and can lose a large part of their effectiveness by the infiltration of stupid people or unexpected bursts of stupidity in otherwise intelligent people.

Another dangerous element in the equation is that the machinery of power tends to place "intelligent bandits" (sometimes even "stupid bandits") at the top of the pyramid; and they, in turn, tend to favor and protect stupidity and keep true intelligence out of their way as much as they can.

Wow, way to threadjack.

Since you want to post the work of others to try to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about, then here is my Math Paper that I WROTE from My head and I didn't borrow from everyone else to make myself look intelligent, because you ONLY look intelligent in a mirror.


Ribbit

Ps: If you look closely, you will notice God is in My Paper, so since I actually FOUND God in the Flesh, and EVERYTHING says God is Female by Nature, guess what? You're Screwed! Plus, the Laws of the Universe are in there so you can educate yourself on the Truth!



You should be careful who You play with, You might get burned!



The Finite Universe

This is a discussion concerning this concept:

[link to mathforum.org]

That's accepted as being the way it is but I disagree and besides the fact that finite infinity equations (like .3 to infinity) cannot exist unless Infinite exists and Infinite cannot exist unless finite exists and the simple fact that if finite doesn't exist, neither does .9 to infinity (with or without finite - I will be explaining that statement herein), thereby, no matter what, .9 to infinity doesn't equal 1 unless finite is present and if finite is present, then it wasn't .9 to infinity to begin with, it was 1, so here's my argument:

The first hurdle is to explain the foundation of my argument, which is finite, and it appears most peeps do not believe finite exists because they think finite is zero, when it is NOT zero and the problem with those that believe finite is zero is they won't do what scientists are supposed to do, which is to say - "What if?" Mathematicians are nothing more than number's scientists, but maybe they've forgotten that or maybe they never knew that, so:

What if Infinite exists?

What if Infinite can be quantified?

What if finite exists?

What if finite can be quantified?

Then, if they both exist and both can be quantified and with what the lil toad is saying, does the math jive? Since the foundation of my proof is finite, my job is to get them to see that which they can't see and that's not going to be easy. So let's talk about finite first, by discussing the You're Always Right Paradox.

The You're Always Right Paradox goes like this:

Ask anyone this question (verbatim): "I have a question for you - Are you always right?"

The answer is almost always No but the correct answer happens to be Yes, and the reason is simple. As humans, we are always right, from our perspective (see original question), and anytime we doubt anything or change our minds, we go from being right to being right and even when we realize we're wrong about something, guess what, we're right. But the real question is, how much time passes (if any) between being right and being right? The two possible answers are zero or finite (both is not an option), so which is it? Is it possible to do something in no (zero) time? Is it possible for a circle to go from zero degrees to finite degrees in no time, even though the distance traveled is only finite? When we go from being right to being right, something happened and can that something happen in zero time (no time) or is the answer finite? If the answer is zero, then we can move from any Point A to any Point B, covering any amount of distance in no time, so is that possible? If it is possible to transverse finite in zero time, then all we'd have to do is transverse a finite distance to infinity and we can travel from one side of the Universe to the other side in no time. Is that possible? Finite is interesting because there's no space between finite and zero (I will be discussing mathematical space-time later) and that's what makes finite so hard to see but if you will just think about this paradox, very carefully, you should realize that "something" can't happen in "no time" so time is relevant and since this paradox affects everyone, it will affect them in the same amount of time, so the answer is quite interesting and it also shows that which supposedly doesn't exist. So if you've never thought about the You're Always Right Paradox, you should and once you do, you should also be able to understand the amount of time involved is a constant and then the answer should be obvious and if you can figure out the correct answer, then I've got a chance of getting you to understand the rest of this.

For those that believe .9 to infinity equals 1, the main flaw in their math is when they've thought they created .9 to infinity, they didn't, they created 1 and finite is the key to proving it. What they need to understand is that when dealing with fractions, the finite portion is automatically accounted for but when you turn that fraction into an infinity equation and then you manipulate it (add - subtract - multiply - divide) you must account for the finite portion of the equation and what they also may not realize is that when you write an infinity number, it isn't a number, it's an equation and no different than Infinite or finite, which must also be defined/quantified with an equation and they need to understand this concept, since it goes to the heart of my proof.

It's said that both Infinite and finite cannot be quantified but they think they've quantified an equation known as a fraction, when they didn't. 1/2 does equal 0.5 and that is quantified and a number but when you take 1/3 and turn it into a "number" of .3 to infinity, they need to see what that little line above the 3 is, it turns that number into an equation and thus, you have NOT quantified 1/3 into a number and .9 to infinity (without finite) is NOT 1. So, what if Infinite & finite do exist? What they need to realize is that if Infinite exists, so too does finite, because how can anything keep on going, forever getting bigger, but you can't go the other way and have something that is getting smaller, forever getting smaller? With their math, apparently, Infinite has a limit and finite has a limit but all they are doing is limiting their mind to that which they know and they can't see that which they don't know, because they think they already know the truth. So how is it possible for Infinite to exist (see George Cantor's work on Infinite) but finite doesn't exist? The fact that Infinite exists doesn't appears to be the problem, the problem is finite, so how are Infinite & finite related? They are inverted opposites and here are examples of inverted opposites:

I = Infinite
f = finite

1/1 - 1/1
2/1 - 1/2
3/1 - 1/3
4/1 - 1/4
I/1 - 1/I
f/1 - 1/f

So with that, these statements are true:

I/1 = 1/f
f/1 = 1/I

Considering zero is the only numerical exception to inverted opposites (cannot divide by zero), then those statements are true and finite is NOT zero, or Infinite would then also be zero and Georg Cantor's work dealing with Infinite is also wrong. So finite is Infinite's inverted opposite and finite does not equal zero and finite does exist because Infinite exists, plus, you need to understand that when you divide by zero, you do NOT get an infinity/Infinite number. Zero is a mathematical contradiction and can be shown in a simple exercise:

"If you have a group of people and the combined amount of money they have is two dollars, what is the average each person has if the number of people is zero?"

When you divide by zero, a mathematical contradiction occurs and you do not end up with an infinity number, as you think, but that's because you think finite is zero when it is NOT! But when you divide by finite, the answer is an infinity equation/number. There's a simple equation that shows how inverted opposites "react" when multiplied by their existing counterpart (notice how zero is excluded):

When Y equals ± 1 to ± Infinite (respectively) then:

Y x 1/Y = 1

So when Y equals Infinite, its opposite is 1/I or f/1 and then:

I x 1/I = 1

1/I = f

If = 1

f = 0 + f

f = 1 - .9 to infinity (without finite - I will explain that later)

So let's do the math and figure out the proof that gives me, that finite does exist? I believe that's 2I -1, since zero is the exception to the rule. So I can prove finite does exist to Infinity & back minus 1 and that's just one of a multitude of sets of proofs I can use to prove "If" does exist. Now let's move onto .9 to infinity not equaling zero and the first thing we'll look at is the simple way infinity numbers are made, which is by dividing by a "form of 9":

1/9 = .1 to infinity
1/99 = .01 to infinity
1/999 = .001 to infinity

Etc . . . .

But that doesn't work for .9 to infinity (without finite) because:

9/9 = 1
99/99 = 1
999/999 = 1

Etc . . . .

So why is it they want to muck up the math and say those all equal .9 to infinity (without finite) when they don't equal .9 to infinity (without finite) and moreover, to say they equal .9 to infinity (without finite) defies math but they have to say that to cover-up the original blunder that .9 to infinity (without finite) equals 1! I've mentioned "with finite" & "without finite" so now I will show the finite in infinity equations/numbers:

f = finite

1/9 = .1 to infinity + 1/9f
2/9 = .2 to infinity + 2/9f
3/9 = .3 to infinity + 3/9f
4/9 = .4 to infinity + 4/9f
5/9 = .5 to infinity + 5/9f
6/9 = .6 to infinity + 6/9f
7/9 = .7 to infinity + 7/9f
8/9 = .8 to infinity + 8/9f
9/9 = .9 to infinity + 9/9f = .9 to infinity + f = 1
9/99 = .09 to infinity + 9/99f
9/999 = .009 to infinity + 9/999f
1234/9999 = .1234 to infinity + 1234/9999f
98765/99999 = .98765 to infinity + 98765/99999f

Etc . . . .

At this point, I need to explain how finite works, when mathematically manipulated, to finish proving .9 to infinity (without finite) does NOT equal 1 and that finite does exist. I'm going to keep it simple but with the examples I give, the same math works on all infinity equations.

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

.3 to infinity + .3 to infinity + .3 to infinity = 1 (not .9 to infinity without finite)

Here's their math:

Add these together:

.3 to infinity
.3 to infinity
.3 to infinity
____________

= .9 to infinity (without finite) = 1


Here's the correct math:

Add these together:

.3 to infinity + (1/3finite)
.3 to infinity + (1/3finite)
.3 to infinity + (1/3finite)
___________________

= .9 to infinity + (3/3finite)

= .9 to infinity + (finite)

= 1


Finite explains why they think .9 to infinity equals 1, because they think finite doesn't exist, when it does and when finite is accounted for, the math jives and with the equation directly above, the answer is .9 to infinity + finite, which is 1 and not .9 to infinity without finite. Therefore, the answer was never .9 to infinity by itself. Plus, when dealing with finite, I place it (finite) in parenthesis to show that although it isn't seen and can't be seen, it can be accounted for and with it in parenthesis, it keeps finite visible when it actually isn't visible and thereby, keeps it "in its place". However, I need to explain the math above before I continue.

With true infinity equations/numbers, they are created by dividing the infinity number by the same number of 9's (see below):

.1 to infinity = 1/9

.123 (with 123 to infinity: .123123123123 . . . .) = 123/999

.9876 (with 9876 to infinity: .9876987698769876 . . . .) = 9876/9999

Etc . . . .

.9 to infinity (without finite) is the one infinity equation/number that cannot be created using that method (9/9 doesn't equal .9 to infinity without finite, it equals .9 to infinity + finite, which then equals 1 because it was 1 to begin with). Therefore, it must either be created using a form of 9 to infinity or by other means (1 - f = .9 to infinity without finite and/or 9 divided by 10 squared (1 to Infinite) = .9 to infinity without finite) but any way you create .9 to infinity doesn't actually qualify as "creation" but that's another subject. So when mathematically manipulating infinity equations, if finite is accounted for the math works but if it isn't, then the math is all messed up (I'll be using four digits of infinity from now on to keep it manageable - aka: Finite Math).

Their way:

.3333
x 5
_______

= 1.6665

= 1.6 (with 6 to infinity)


With their way, there's always a "last number" that "tends" to become the infinity number so they say that because it "tends" to become the infinity number, it then becomes that number but how can 5 equal 6? Nevertheless, when the math is done correctly, there are no "tends" that have to be accounted for.

Here's the correct way:

.3333 + ( 1/3f )
x 5
_____________

= 1.6665 + ( 5/3f )

= 1.6665 + ( 1 2/3f )

= 1.6666 + ( 2/3f )

= 1.6 (with 6 to infinity)


If you noticed, when finite ends up with a whole number portion, the whole number portion is always added to the solution, right to left, when using partial infinity numbers (aka: Finite Math) and in this case, only four "digits" of the infinity number.

Here are more examples:

.3333 + ( 1/3f )
x 7
_____________

= 2.3331 + ( 7/3f )

= 2.3331 + ( 2 1/3f )

= 2.3333 + ( 1/3f )

= 2.3 (with 3 to infinity)


.3333 + ( 1/3f )
x 11
_____________

= 3.6663 + ( 11/3f )

= 3.6663 + ( 3 2/3f )

= 3.6666 + ( 2/3f )

= 3.6 (with 6 to infinity)


.3333 + ( 1/3f )
x 23
_____________

= 7.6659 + ( 23/3f )

= 7.6659 + ( 7 2/3f )

= 7.6666 + ( 2/3f )

= 7.6 (with 6 to infinity)


.3333 + ( 1/3f )
x 101
_____________

= 33.6633 + ( 101/3f )

= 33.6633 + ( 33 2/3f )

= 33.6666 + ( 2/3f )

= 33.6 (with 6 to infinity)


.5555 + ( 5/9f )
x 7
_____________

= 3.8885 + ( 35/9f )

= 3.8885 + ( 3 8/9f )

= 3.8888 + ( 8/9f )

= 3.8 (with 8 to infinity)


.1111 + ( 1/9f )
x 143
_____________

= 15.8873 + ( 143/9f )

= 15.8873 + ( 15 8/9f )

= 15.8888 + ( 8/9f )

= 15.8 (with 8 to infinity)


.13131313 + ( 13/99f )
x 73
_____________

= 9.58585849 + ( 949/99f )

= 9.58585849 + ( 9 58/99f )

= 9.58585858 + ( 58/99f )

= 9.58 (with 58 to infinity)


If you do not account for finite, the equations always have to be manipulated (tends) so they will equal the correct answer and that isn't math but some kind of numbers mumbo-jumbo. My math doesn't have to be manipulated in weird ways to get it to work, it works perfectly with no special manipulation necessary and it works to infinity, which is what I call math and it further proves that .9 to infinity (without finite) does not equal 1!

Here are the same equations from above but in fraction form:

1/3 x 7 = 7/3 = 2 1/3 = 2.3 (with 3 to infinity)

1/3 x 11 = 11/3 = 3 2/3 = 3.6 (with 6 to infinity)

1/3 x 23 = 23/3 = 7 2/3 = 7.6 (with 6 to infinity)

1/3 x 101 = 101/3 = 33 2/3 = 33.6 (with 6 to infinity)

5/9 x 7 = 35/9 = 3.8 (with 8 to infinity)

1/9 x 143 = 143/9 = 15.8 (with 8 to infinity)

13/99 x 73 = 949/99 = 9.58 (with 58 to infinity)

It doesn't matter what you multiply by, the whole number portion of finite will always bring the infinity number "up" to the correct amount and that's what's known as math, not the numbers mumbo-jumbo they try to get peeps to believe when they say .9 to infinity equals 1 and considering my math is proven by the fraction math and their way is obviously flawed, there's no other choice but to acknowledge finite does exist and .9 to infinity (without finite) does not equal 1 but rather, .9 to infinity + f equals 1 and 9/9 does not equal .9 to infinity (without finite), it equals 1 because it equals .9 to infinity (with finite) and that is 1.

Here's a perfect example of one of their proofs that .9 to infinity equals 1:

[link to allphilosophy.com]

Let x = .9999 repeating

10x = 9.9999...
10x = 9 + x
10x - x = 9
9x = 9
x = 1

First things first, which .9 to infinity is "x"? Is it (1 minus finite) which is (.9 to infinity without finite) or (.3 to infinity times 3) which is (.9 to infinity + f)? So let's find out which one it is, using finite math as defined earlier:

Let x = .9999 + f

x = .9999 + f
10 = 10
10x = 9.9990 + 10f
10x = 10.0000

x = 1

Now we'll look at it exactly how the equation is written:

Let x = .9999 + f

10x = 9.9999 + f
10x = 9 + x
10x - x = 9
9x = 9

x = 1

Although that is not the correct way to do Finite Math, with that equation it still works, because .9 to infinity + f equals 1. So now let's look at what happens when x equals 1:

Let x = 1

10x = 9 + x
10x = 9 + 1
10x = 10

x = 1

So that proves that .9 to infinity + finite equals 1 but now we have to find out what happens when the variable is .9 to infinity without finite:

1 - f = .9 to infinity without finite

Let x = 1 - f

10x = 10 - 10f
10x = 9 + x

That's where the math is wrong! 10x does not equal 9 + x, when x equals .9 to infinity without finite, but the problem is the original equation is using .3 to infinity times 3, which is .9 to infinity (with finite), which is 1 and never was .9 to infinity (without finite) in the first place, as is shown with the math above. So it's clear their math is flawed, however, it's easy for anyone to say that equation is flawed to begin with, since finite doesn't exist, so how can you subtract finite from 1 to get .9 to infinity without finite, when finite doesn't exist? That's the cheap way to discount my theory and isn't the proper way to prove me wrong and considering when I account for finite and the math works perfectly, that has to be disproved to properly prove me wrong, so they will have to prove finite doesn’t exist and any proof finite doesn't exist, can be used to disprove their proof and considering all of the math herein is perfect and their math isn't so perfect, an old saying comes into play:

"Occam's/Ockham's Razor (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem) is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion, thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one." - William of Ockham

To further demonstrate how you can get the wrong answer in math, I offer up this well known equation:

(x + 1)(x - 1) = x -1

Now let's look at what happens when x = 1:

Let x = 1

(x + 1)(x - 1) = x - 1
(1 + 1)(1 - 1) = 1 - 1
(2)(0) = 0

0 = 0


Is that true? Yes! Is it correct? No! Here's why:

Let x = 0

(x + 1)(x - 1) = x -1
(0 + 1)(0 - 1) = 0 -1
(1)(-1) = -1

-1 = -1


Then work it out fully:

(x + 1)(x - 1) = x -1

divide (x-1) from both sides

x+1 = 1

x = 0


When x + 1 = 1 then x cannot equal 1!!!! So just because you can plug a number into an equation and it works, doesn't mean that's the correct answer and in this case if you plug in 1 as x, you get this:

2 = 1 or 1 = 0

That sure looks a lot like the same kind of math they use that says .9 to infinity equals one but why does 2/1 equal 1/0 in those equations? The answer is obvious: You divided by zero earlier and you can't do that. Finite Math is no different, there are rules to follow and if you ignore the rules, you will get the wrong answer, as they have been doing with .9 to infinity.

What you all need to realize is this will come to pass as being the truth, because humans are on the verge of splitting either an electron, proton, or neutron and once they do that, they should/will realize that everything is getting smaller and smaller and going to finite. This may have already occurred, in the particle accelerators they've built, but if the peeps involved don't think finite exists, then they won't know what's happening and they will most likely theorize the wrong answer, just as they have incorrectly theorized .9 to infinity (without finite) equals 1.

Lastly, going back to the beginning, look once again at the You're Always Right Paradox and understand this:

1. While finite's limit is zero, finite is not zero.

2. While .9 to infinity's (without finite) limit is one ( 1 ), .9 to infinity (without finite) is not one ( 1 ) but .9 to infinity (with finite) is one ( 1 ), so limits technically do not come into play with .9 to infinity (with finite), unless you want to say that it's limit is 1 ± f but that's stupid IMO.

3. Taking Cantor's work with Infinite and combining finite to it, the proof that finite exists is interesting:

( I ) x ( I - 1/I ) = I² - 1

Which the equation for that is ( x ( x - 1/x )), which when Infinite equals x:

I ( I - 1/I ) = I ( I - f ) = I² - 1

And the circle is the proof for why it is that way. The old saying that a circle's beginning is it's end, is wrong. As was discussed with the You're Always Right Paradox, time is relevant, so the correct way to say that old saying is - "Where a circle begins from is its end." So when multiplying finite infinity times Infinite Infinity, in a combined situation like that, a circle comes into play in a round-about way:

It can be said that finite infinity & Infinite Infinity both begin from one ( 1 ) but they travel in opposite directions from one another and finite infinity & Infinite Infinity can equal one another:

finite infinity = One ( .9 to infinity + 9f ) to finite ( zero + f ) = I

Infinite Infinity = One ( .9 to infinity + 9f ) to Infinite = I

But they both cannot occupy the same space at the same time (the commonality of the two equations is One), so to correct that Space-Time Paradox you remove (subtract) One ( 1 ) from either side of the equation (doesn't matter which side you subtract the One ( 1 ) from) and to do that I subtract the One ( 1 ) from the finite infinity equation, since the whole number portion of the finite infinity equation is One ( 1 ) and that is only a finite portion of the finite infinity equation, just as the One ( 1 ) from the Infinite Infinity side is only a finite portion of that equation, so that is then ( I - f ) , which then creates the final equation of ( I ) x ( I - f ) = I² - 1 which is also what I refer to as the mathematical definition of an inverted circle/sphere, which does define the Universe properly and if you'll think about what an inverted sphere would be/look like and then look at the Universe again, maybe you'll see that by calling the Universe an inverted sphere, it defines the Universe (space portion) like no other definition/explanation can (Life's Math), but it does take a good mathematical imagination to see that one. However, if you understand that the Universe is one of the greatest paradoxes of all time and you also understand that an inverted sphere is one of the greatest mathematical paradoxes of all time, it does describe the Universe (space portion) like nothing else can but there is more to it.

So now there are two equations that define the Universe:

I² - 1

If = 1

And combined:

I² - If (Equation of the Universe)

Which the first equation is also the Equation of Time (future or past only - the full Equation of Time is (Past plus Future plus Present) = ((I² - 1) + (I² - 1) + f ) = (2I² - 2 + f ), which to define the Universe is to define Time itself but with Time, the space in Time that will be occupied twice at the same time is at zero (Present), not at one (Future), so although the two (Time/Universe) have differences, the same equation defines both and eliminates any space-time problems from either. So let's look at Time itself, since it also proves finite exists.

What is the space-time that's between and including the beginning/end of the Past and the beginning of the Future (since the answer is pertaining to a difference in space-time, from one point to another point, the answer given will be that difference so do not take all of the following equations literally):

Present = 0

( Beginning of Past ) to ( Beginning of Future ) = Space/Time

( 0 - finite ) to ( 0 + finite ) = 3f

because:

Beginning of Past ( f ) to Present ( f ) to Beginning of Past ( f ) = 3f

x = Present

( x - f ) + ( x ) + ( x + f ) = 3x

3x = 3f

Present = zero

zero = finite (but finite does not equal zero)

( f - f ) + ( f ) + ( f + f ) = 3f

The problem with peeps who think finite equals zero is they are backwards/inverted thinkers, in that when it comes to space-time, zero does equal finite but finite does not equal zero, because all numbers occupy a finite amount of space-time and that includes zero itself and Time proves it, because if the Present didn't occupy space-time, it would never occur and what "they" don't realize is there is no space between 2 side-by-side finite's but both finite's each occupy finite space-time ( 2f ). So let's examine numbers to see if that statement is true:

How much space-time is between and including ( 1 - f ) to ( 1 + f )?

( 1 - finite ) to ( 1 + finite ) = 3f

because:

( 1 - finite ) to ( 1 ) to ( 1 + finite ) = 3f

( .9 to infinity without finite ) to ( .9 to infinity + 9/9f ) to ( .9 to infinity + 2f ) = 3f

( x - f ) + ( x ) + ( x + f ) = 3x

3x = 3f

( f - f ) + ( f ) + ( f + f ) = 3f

the spatial difference from 1 to ( 1 - f ) is finite

the spatial difference from 1 to ( 1 + f ) is finite

Thereby, One also occupies finite space-time.


Let's try that with Zero - how much space-time is between and including ( 0 - f ) to ( 0 + f )?

( 0 - finite ) to ( 0 + finite ) = 3f

because:

( 0 - finite ) + ( 0 ) + ( 0 + finite ) = 3f

x = 0 = finite

( x - f ) + ( x ) + ( x + f ) = 3f

( f - f ) + ( f ) + ( f + f ) = 3f

( 0f ) + ( f ) + ( 2f ) = 3f

the spatial difference from 0 to ( 0 - f ) is finite

the spatial difference from 0 to ( 0 + f ) is finite

Thereby, Zero also occupies finite space-time.

So the spatial difference between and including negative finite and positive finite is 3f because zero also occupies finite space-time. Let's do one more exercise - how much space-time is between ( +1 ) to and including ( +2 )?

from ( +1 ) to and including ( +2 ) = 1

( 1.9 to infinity + f ) - ( .9 to infinity + f ) = 1

2 - 1 = 1


As you can see, changing the space-time of numbers doesn't affect math per se, it only affects certain aspects of space-time within math. Now, how much space-time is between and including +1 to and including +2?

from and including ( .9 to infinity + f ) to and including ( 1.9 to infinity + f ) = 1 + f

( 1.9 to infinity + f ) - ( .9 to infinity (without finite)) = 1 + f

2 - .9 to infinity (without finite) = 1 + f

What Time does is prove that space-time does not exist between numbers, it's the numbers themselves that occupy space-time, which is completely backwards/inverted of the current thinking, plus, what I refer to as Calendar Math also shows the same thing:

December = 31 days

December 1 = first day of December

December 31 = last day in December

31 - 1 = 30

30 + 1 = 31

So with "their" math, December only has 30 days in it because the space-time involved wasn't properly dealt with but here's a simple space-time equation, that shows the math doesn't change - how much distance is traveled when traveling a constant speed of 1 meter per second for 5 seconds:

from 0s to 5s = 5s + 0fs

from 0s to and including 1s = 1s
from 1s to and including 2s = 1s
from 2s to and including 3s = 1s
from 3s to and including 4s = 1s
from 4s to and including 5s = 1s

1s + 1s + 1s + 1s + 1s = 5s

5s x 1mps = 5m traveled in 5 seconds

That shows how time is relevant and a circle's beginning is not it's end, because a circle doesn't begin until it has moved finite degrees (motion is required for "something" to begin/happen). Therefore, when manipulating certain finite equations, you have to add finite to the answer to get the correct answer, because a finite portion of one of the numbers was part of the equation and "regular math" doesn't account for it, but regular mathematical equations/questions remain the same and the concept that numbers occupy space-time, instead of the space between the numbers occupying space-time, does not affect math in general, it only fixes the space-time paradoxes within math by properly accounting for finite and space-time, but let's look at one more thing - how much space-time is between but not including the end of the Past and the beginning of but not including the Future (aka: Present Time):

( 0 - finite ) to ( 0 + finite ) but not to include either = 0 = Present

With the current mathematical space-time philosophy, that space-time is between numbers and not the numbers themselves, the answer to that question is either 0f (zero space-time) or 2f (which would be the finite space on both sides of zero, which is 1f of the Past ( -1f ) and 1f of the Future ( +1f ) and I hope no one thinks that is the correct answer but I had to include it since it is a possibility) but if it's the numbers themselves that occupy mathematical space-time and there's zero space-time in-between them, then the answer is still zero but now zero's space-time is 1f (finite) instead of 0f (zero time) and the reason why the current thinking is the way it is, is due to perception and I liken it to two peeps being in the "middle of space" where they cannot see anything within their field of vision, other than themselves, and they are positioned head-to-toe (aka: sixty-nine) and one person says to the other person, "You're upside-down!" And the other person replies, "No, you're upside-down!" Without a point of reference, who's right? When it comes to numbers, there's no point of reference, except for Time itself, which "they" never applied to their mathematical thinking so "they" see the space-time as being in-between the numbers, instead of it being the numbers themselves, which then the Present occurs in true zero time ( 0f ) and defies Time itself, thus creating a Warped-Time Paradox (the event's "motion" (time) occurs within the space-time in-between the numbers and then the event itself (number) happens (space) after the fact, when both (space-time) should occur together at the same finite moment and the Warped-Time Paradox results in a number moving thru time instead of moving in time). It's said that space is the distance between objects or between two points that are separated but if it's the objects themselves (numbers) that occupy space and they are not separated by space, then they would clearly be the space portion of mathematical space-time and when motion occurs to move that "number" in Time (not thru it) to the next "number" (does require time), then finite happens harmoniously (space) and the space-time dimensions of math are then aligned correctly with Time but because space is space, it's always been accepted that the space between numbers is where the space-time of math existed and no one ever thought to look at it to see if that was correct or not and it obviously isn't (aka: Warped-Time Paradox), besides the fact that the current way has "something" (numbers) occupying space where there is no space to occupy (aka: Mathematical Magician's Act), which undeniably defies not only math but the Universe as well, because how is it possible for "something" (numbers) to exist in zero space? To put it simply, common sense (aka: Logic) dictates that for something to exist it must occupy Space and Time, therefore, the current space-time philosophy of math is not correct and it should be corrected and even Aristotle covered it:

We may say a thing is at rest when it has not changed its position between now and then, but there is no 'then' in 'now', so there is no being at rest. Both motion and rest, then, must necessarily occupy time. - Aristotle

To occupy Time is to occupy Space at the same finite moment and if someone/something were to travel in a straight line from Point A to Point B (two different finite points in space), then when that object is at rest at Point A, prior to its travels, it would occupy Space & Time and when it arrives at Point B, at the end of its travels, it would also occupy Space & Time, and it would undeniably occupy Space & Time during its travels from Point A to Point B. That statement is absolutely true and is explained by Aristotle’s quote above but what if those Points were numbers instead? What if the same object were to travel from Zero to One, instead of Point A to Point B? Would it occupy Space & Time at Zero and at One, while at rest at either, and would it also occupy Space & Time during its travels from Zero to One? The answer is obvious - Yes to all! But with the current numerical space-time philosophy, if the object actually happens to be numbers, it would not occupy Space & Time when it is Zero and at rest at Zero and/or One and at rest at One, it would only occupy Space & Time in-between Zero and One. I have to wonder why the space-time of numbers are treated differently than all other objects in the Universe, since numbers are nothing more than numerical objects with an infinite number of finite points in Space & Time and they are not above the law.

The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education. - Einstein

Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas. - Einstein

So Time itself proves finite exists and that numbers occupy mathematical space, because space-time does not exist in-between mathematical twin-finites (side-by-side finites), which is clearly how Time is organized and operates, and it also proves that not only are numbers comprised of finite, the Universe is as well and Newton's Third Law of Motion explains/proves how/why finite does exist because Infinite exists (aka: The Law of Opposites - opposites cannot exist without each other and if one exists, so too does the other) because they exist off one another in harmony, just like the motions (Time) in Newton's Third Law exists off one another harmoniously. Furthermore, finite also proves that the mathematical center of the Universe is One, not Zero, but Zero is the mathematical center of Time, thus, Time and Space (physical space) are on separate dimensional planes of one another and the most interesting fact is, for the most part, the math doesn't change by accounting for space-time differently/correctly, it only changes the final solution when space-time is affected and only in certain/specific situations and it can solve many space-time paradoxal problems, including finite, because all it does, technically, is add finite space-time to zero but it does not change zero's value, it is still zero, just like one will still be one and two will still be two, so the math pretty much stays the same, plus, let's not forget the Time Paradox, wherein no matter what moment in Time the Present is (the present is not positive nor negative so it is zero), it's always the middle of Time so we're stuck in the middle of Time forever. Also, Time is like a circle, in that the Present is where the Past ends and the Future begins from and since the Present is zero, the Future begins from zero and the Past ends at zero but neither include zero, like a real circle, unless the Present is also accounted for (motion is required for "something" to begin/happen and Time is motion) and finite infinity equations (like .3 to infinity) cannot exist unless Infinite exists and Infinite cannot exist unless finite exists so the simple fact is that if finite doesn't exist, neither does Infinite or .9 to infinity (with or without finite) so no matter what, it's mathematically obvious that .9 to infinity (without finite) doesn't equal 1.

Time & finite are unmistakably Relevant!

So with the forgoing proof and the old saying - "Shit Happens!" - then:

Finite Happens or Shit Doesn't!

To be ONE with God or not to be ONE with God, that is the question!!!!

Ribbit :)

Ps: I thought I'd mention that .9 to infinity (without finite) divided by 9 does not equal .1 to infinity (with 1/9 finite). The actual answer is .1 to infinity without finite ( .1 to infinity + 1/9f - 1/9f ). Here's the math:

.9 to infinity + 0f (without finite) divided by 9 equals:

.1 to infinity + 0f (which is not the same as .1 to infinity +1/9f).

To prove this, all that's necessary is simple math:

Subtract these two equations:

.9 to infinity + 0/9f (without finite)
- .8 to infinity + 0/9f (without finite)
________________

= .1 to infinity + 0/9f

Then subtract these two equations:

.9 to infinity + 0/9f (without finite)
- .8 to infinity + 8/9f (with finite)
________________

= .1 to infinity - 8/9f


Also, if you didn't catch it, then here's the skinny. Infinity equations/numbers can "exist" with or without finite and/or different "degrees" of finite but "regular" finite is given unless it's stipulated it isn't given or a different degree of finite is given, except for .9 to infinity which cannot be .9 to infinity if "regular" finite is present because if regular finite is present, it would be 9/9f and then .9 to infinity (with finite) would be 1 and not .9 to infinity (without finite) so when writing .9 to infinity, if no finite or degree of finite is given, then it's assumed there is none. And, by the way, this is all proven by Georg Cantor's work with Infinite so I don't have to prove it, it's already been proven. Because how can there be infinite degrees of Infinite if there aren't infinite degrees of finite? So to prove me wrong, you will also have to prove Georg Cantor wrong.

Pps: Just for the record, in case I wasn't clear enough above, there is one way for .9 to infinity to equal 1 and that's when it includes finite ( 9/9f ):

.9 to infinity + ( 9/9f )
- .8 to infinity + ( 8/9f )
_________________

= .1 to infinity + ( 1/9f )

= 1/9

In simple form:

1 - 8/9 = 1/9

So when .9 to infinity does equal 1, then finite is present and the above equations further prove finite does exist.

Ppps: Just in case anyone may want to say the Universe is not Infinite, because of the "new" findings with that Radio Telescope showing a "green" barrier surrounding us (billions of light-years away), that "they" say is the edge of the Universe (particle horizon), you all need to understand that those peeps need to go back to skewl to learn what a life-ring is (like on trees), since all they found is our galaxy's birth date (aka: a Galaxy's Light Life-ring) that occurred from our galaxy's formation and nothing more. The Universe is not expanding, it is Infinite and finite proves it.

Lastly, here are the mathematical "givens" from this paper:

Both finite and Infinite exist.

1 = .9 to infinity (with finite)

finite = 1 - .9 to infinity (without finite)

.9 to infinity (without finite) does not equal One

finite infinity = One (.9 to infinity + f ) to finite (zero + f )

Infinite Infinity = One (.9 to infinity + f ) to Infinite


When Y equals ± 1 to ± Infinite (respectively) then:

Y x 1/Y = 1

I x 1/I = 1

1/I = f/1
I/1 = 1/f

From those statements, these are also true:

( f/1 ) x ( 1/f ) = 1
( I/1 ) x ( 1/I ) = 1
( 1/f ) x ( 1/I ) = 1
( I/1 ) x ( f/1 ) = 1

If = 1

I = I²f
f = If ²
If = I²f x If ²

I²f x If ² = 1
I²f ² = 1

Infinite Infinity multiplied by finite infinity (with overlapping space-time accounted for properly):

( I ) x ( I - f ) = I² - 1

I² - If (Equation of the Universe)


The Finite Math equivalents (4 digits) of finite and Infinite are:

finite = .0001 ( f ² )

Infinite = ( I ) 9999


( I ) 9999
x .0001 ( f ² )
__________

.9999 + f = 1


Mathematical Center of the Universe = One (where finite infinity & Infinite Infinity overlap)

The Three Verses of the Universe are:

Innerverse = finite infinity
Outerverse = Infinite Infinity
Centerverse = where finite infinity & Infinite Infinity overlap at One

The Three Dimensions of the Universe are:

First Dimension (Inner & Outer Space - Universe)
Second Dimension (Center of the Universe - Source of All Creation/Matter - God)
Third Dimension (Time - opposite of Space (1st & 2nd Dimensions))

The Equation of Time is (( I² - 1 ) + ( I² - 1 ) + f ) = 2I² - 2 + f

Time's official increments are finite, just as Everything in the Universe is as well.

Mathematical Center of Time = Zero (Present)

The Three Verses of Time are:

Past = begins from Zero or begins at Zero minus finite (Past total equals I² - 1)
Present = Zero (Present total equals finite)
Future = begins from Zero or begins at Zero plus finite (Future total equals I² - 1)

Known Laws of the Universe:

1. Law of Being - that which has always been will always be, but that which has a beginning will have an end.

2. Law of Existence - that which has mass, exists and that which exists, exists but that which does not exist, does not.

3. Law of Matter - all Matter occupies Space & Time, and Numbers matter.

4. Law of Opposites - opposites cannot exist without each other and if one exists, so too does the other.

5. Law of Shapes - everything goes to a Sphere, if possible, for even the sum of all Numbers is a Sphere, from ±finite to ±Infinite and including Zero.

6. Law of Space - Time & Space (Universe) are on different planes of existence (Dimensions) so they are separate of one another but that which occupies Space, also occupies Time.

7. Law of Time - Time is a constant, always moving forward in increments of finite and that which occupies Time, also occupies Space.


Lastly, Numbers (including Time) occupy mathematical space-time (see: Law of Matter) and there's no space-time in-between them, since Numbers are nothing more than numerical objects used to define Objects (Matter) in the Universe and all Objects in the Universe occupy Space & Time (aka: Law of Matter) and the Laws of Thermodynamics do not apply to the Universe on a whole, because the Universe is an Open System and the Laws of Thermodynamics are based on Closed Systems, like a Closed Mind.

Most peeps have faith the size of a Mustard Seed but I believe My Faith to be even Greater. My Faith is the smallest thing possible, finite, then I go from there and Question Everything to Find the Truth, not be taught it like you!

Pppps: Where is God?

All Dogs Go to Heaven

All Black Holes Lead to God

Last Edited by Butt Ugly Toad on 04/29/2010 02:23 AM

there are some infinately long posts in this one.

Oops!

Last Edited by Butt Ugly Toad on 04/29/2010 02:14 AM

Love is the key not some book written by the Elite.

And who are you?

Anyway, we know not the time nor the date. Could be in 5 minutes, could be 20 years.