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Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.

 
Sinanju2

User ID: 973246
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05/20/2010 04:39 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
>>First, YOU are the one making the comparison between socialism(a form of governing) and capitalism(an economic system) in your original post and subsequently throughout the entire thread.

Sorry but considering that yes socialism is a form of governing, the whole premise behind socialism is economic organization. And there fore I think it can be compared to capitalism at least on economic benefits to people.


Secondly, I never said socialism killed 200 million. Another poster did. Argue that point with them.

apologies and I will.
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz


>>Socialism is more than an economic system as evidenced by as simple a thing as the speech codes it causes... and much more. Capitalism is purely an economic system.

You. Are. Wrong.
I don't do book reports, I don't sort the wheat from the chaff but I will discuss the topic of your ignorance if I'm asked. -MC Frontalot

“But make no mistake, BP is operating at our direction...” -Barry Obammy
Sinanju2

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05/20/2010 04:40 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
To not confuse, I'm butting in. I think you misunderstand. I think you missed or ignored a post I made earlier. There are millions who have died at the hands of dictators/tyrants trying to MAKE their version of socialism work. Hitler, Mao and Stalin each had 'perfect' systems, when their system failed it was the people's fault, so people were weeded out. People starved because the farming part of Mao's system was flawed. Same under Stalin, millions died of privation because his system failed.

Find that sort of cruelty under any capitalist system, no matter it's faults.

You asked for no debate on health care, but the new law will cause millions to die prematurely unless it is changed, but that will happen beyond our lifetimes.

Sorry I see that more as Megalomania. Hitler was elected, could we say democracy caused his genocide?
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz


>>Hitler was appointed. Your knowledge of history, politics, and economics is remedial at best.
I don't do book reports, I don't sort the wheat from the chaff but I will discuss the topic of your ignorance if I'm asked. -MC Frontalot

“But make no mistake, BP is operating at our direction...” -Barry Obammy
Jebediah Lipschitz (OP)

User ID: 975996
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05/20/2010 04:53 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
To not confuse, I'm butting in. I think you misunderstand. I think you missed or ignored a post I made earlier. There are millions who have died at the hands of dictators/tyrants trying to MAKE their version of socialism work. Hitler, Mao and Stalin each had 'perfect' systems, when their system failed it was the people's fault, so people were weeded out. People starved because the farming part of Mao's system was flawed. Same under Stalin, millions died of privation because his system failed.

Find that sort of cruelty under any capitalist system, no matter it's faults.

You asked for no debate on health care, but the new law will cause millions to die prematurely unless it is changed, but that will happen beyond our lifetimes.

Sorry I see that more as Megalomania. Hitler was elected, could we say democracy caused his genocide?


>>Hitler was appointed. Your knowledge of history, politics, and economics is remedial at best.
 Quoting: Sinanju2

Nice try, I guess he never got a seat in the Reichstag, well he did and then was appointed chancellor.

Man you like to split fucking hairs. Your attempts to belittle me are gay at best.

Hitler after being jailed, realized that he could not take power by force, so he decided to use legal means to garner support. He concentrated on reorganizing his party so that he could win power through elections. he set branches of the Party in Germany, created a youth movement to get support of the youth, and arranged large public movements to attract new members. But, he was never at once democratically elected as a President.

At first, during the 1928 Elections, the Nazi Party was pretty well unheard of, only winning less than 3 per cent of the votes. In July 1932 elections, the Nazis won 37.3 per cent of the votes and became the party with the most number of seats in the Reich stag.

He came to power during 30 January 1933, when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the President von Hindernburg. Within months, he ended Weimar government and started the Third Reich (Empire). On 2 August 1914, the frail and old President died. Instead for calling up new elections for the post as Presdient of Germany, he forced his way through and took control of Germany as President, in addition to becoming Chancellor of Germany too. Despite being illegal to have two positions at the same time, everyone could only watch in silence. He has now unlimited power and there was no one powerful enough to stop him right now. He had become the Fuhrer or supreme leader of Germany. Every soldier in the Army and official corps had to take a oath of allegiance towards him. Now, no more Weimar, only a solo dictatorship of one leader, one party. Hitler now controls the whole of Germany.

Last Edited by Crouching Geezer Hidden Drugs on 05/20/2010 05:15 PM
Jebediah Lipschitz (OP)

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05/20/2010 04:56 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
>>First, YOU are the one making the comparison between socialism(a form of governing) and capitalism(an economic system) in your original post and subsequently throughout the entire thread.

Sorry but considering that yes socialism is a form of governing, the whole premise behind socialism is economic organization. And there fore I think it can be compared to capitalism at least on economic benefits to people.


>>Socialism is more than an economic system as evidenced by as simple a thing as the speech codes it causes... and much more. Capitalism is purely an economic system.

You. Are. Wrong.
 Quoting: Sinanju2

You. are. crazy.

So my opinion is wrong, and I guess no ones ever compared the economic benefits of capitalism and socialism.
Sinanju2

User ID: 925756
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05/20/2010 05:20 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
>>First, YOU are the one making the comparison between socialism(a form of governing) and capitalism(an economic system) in your original post and subsequently throughout the entire thread.

Sorry but considering that yes socialism is a form of governing, the whole premise behind socialism is economic organization. And there fore I think it can be compared to capitalism at least on economic benefits to people.


>>Socialism is more than an economic system as evidenced by as simple a thing as the speech codes it causes... and much more. Capitalism is purely an economic system.

You. Are. Wrong.

You. are. crazy.

So my opinion is wrong, and I guess no ones ever compared the economic benefits of capitalism and socialism.
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz


>>Of course they have... but you are talking about the governing aspects of socialism and comparing them to the economic foibles of corporatism.
I don't do book reports, I don't sort the wheat from the chaff but I will discuss the topic of your ignorance if I'm asked. -MC Frontalot

“But make no mistake, BP is operating at our direction...” -Barry Obammy
Sinanju2

User ID: 925756
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05/20/2010 05:21 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
To not confuse, I'm butting in. I think you misunderstand. I think you missed or ignored a post I made earlier. There are millions who have died at the hands of dictators/tyrants trying to MAKE their version of socialism work. Hitler, Mao and Stalin each had 'perfect' systems, when their system failed it was the people's fault, so people were weeded out. People starved because the farming part of Mao's system was flawed. Same under Stalin, millions died of privation because his system failed.

Find that sort of cruelty under any capitalist system, no matter it's faults.

You asked for no debate on health care, but the new law will cause millions to die prematurely unless it is changed, but that will happen beyond our lifetimes.

Sorry I see that more as Megalomania. Hitler was elected, could we say democracy caused his genocide?


>>Hitler was appointed. Your knowledge of history, politics, and economics is remedial at best.

Nice try, I guess he never got a seat in the Reichstag, well he did and then was appointed chancellor.

Man you like to split fucking hairs. Your attempts to belittle me are gay at best.

Hitler after being jailed, realized that he could not take power by force, so he decided to use legal means to garner support. He concentrated on reorganizing his party so that he could win power through elections. he set branches of the Party in Germany, created a youth movement to get support of the youth, and arranged large public movements to attract new members. But, he was never at once democratically elected as a President.

At first, during the 1928 Elections, the Nazi Party was pretty well unheard of, only winning less than 3 per cent of the votes. In July 1932 elections, the Nazis won 37.3 per cent of the votes and became the party with the most number of seats in the Reich stag.

He came to power during 30 January 1933, when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the President von Hindernburg. Within months, he ended Weimar government and started the Third Reich (Empire). On 2 August 1914, the frail and old President died. Instead for calling up new elections for the post as Presdient of Germany, he forced his way through and took control of Germany as President, in addition to becoming Chancellor of Germany too. Despite being illegal to have two positions at the same time, everyone could only watch in silence. He has now unlimited power and there was no one powerful enough to stop him right now. He had become the Fuhrer or supreme leader of Germany. Every soldier in the Army and official corps had to take a oath of allegiance towards him. Now, no more Weimar, only a solo dictatorship of one leader, one party. Hitler now controls the whole of Germany.
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz


>>So... Hitler was appointed.
I don't do book reports, I don't sort the wheat from the chaff but I will discuss the topic of your ignorance if I'm asked. -MC Frontalot

“But make no mistake, BP is operating at our direction...” -Barry Obammy
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 976193
United Kingdom
05/20/2010 05:29 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Feudalism for tribaly minded people operating under biological imperatives

capitalism for socially minded people operating according to emotional/astral values.

Socialism for intellectuals operating according to ethical mental plane values.


To impose socialism on those not ready for it - you have to bend them out of shape and opress them really really hard!


Or If for some reason you seek to control and repress people - you can just sell them a whole lot of BS about socialism!
Jebediah Lipschitz (OP)

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05/20/2010 05:31 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
>>So... Hitler was appointed.
 Quoting: Sinanju2


>>So.. Yes after winning the majority of seats by election in the ReichStag.

>>So.. Are you missing that point?

In July 1932 elections, the Nazis won 37.3 per cent of the votes and became the party with the most number of seats in the Reich stag.
Jebediah Lipschitz (OP)

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05/20/2010 05:32 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Feudalism for tribaly minded people operating under biological imperatives

capitalism for socially minded people operating according to emotional/astral values.

Socialism for intellectuals operating according to ethical mental plane values.


To impose socialism on those not ready for it - you have to bend them out of shape and opress them really really hard!


Or If for some reason you seek to control and repress people - you can just sell them a whole lot of BS about socialism!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 976193



Good comment
Levi Philos
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05/20/2010 06:56 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Questions for Mr Jebediah Lipshitz: "Have you read the Jeff Gates book THE OWNERSHIP SOLUTION or the book BINARY ECONOMICS?"

Have you tried to learn anything about the MONDRAGON COOPERATIVE of the Basque region of Spain?

and thirdly; why ISN'T mention of the Mondragon Cooperative found in either of the first mentioned books?

Readers who wish to discover the answer can cheat; search for the single word Mondragon on this site; I have already supplied one answer.

And, there is another possible answer which I have not supplied because I cannot prove it in any logical fashion.


.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 06:59 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
I do not fear socialism. I hate socialism.


so tell us why.
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz


Maybe you can tell us just exactly who is going to pay for this wonderful socialism.

The communist Chinese, maybe?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 930337
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05/20/2010 07:17 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
What's wrong is if you have to FORCE something on people who are causing no harm to others then you are no better than any petty tyrant. People don't want it so leave it alone. Forcing it means some people will die, some will be put in prison for "not complying". Thus, it is wrong.

Consent of the governed. If you don't have that then it's tyranny. I don't like what we have now but that isn't a good case to accept something else that also limits freedom. No thanks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 940676

THIS!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 930337
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05/20/2010 07:21 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Oh, and GET RID of the "Federal Reserve" and the "income" tax. The federal reserve is not a reserve, it's a private corporation, an arm of the foreign Rothschild/illuminati banks. Get rid of the income tax to pay the interest on the fiat currency, which is unconstitutional.

WHY does our government get the FIAT currency loaned at interest from a private corporation, when they can print it themselves interest free?? Make any fucking sense AT ALL?!?! Nope!!

End the creature from Jekyll Island. End the BS property taxes as well.

Andrew Jackson is spinning in his grave.
Levi Philos
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05/20/2010 08:23 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Questions for Mr Jebediah Lipshitz: "Have you read the Jeff Gates book THE OWNERSHIP SOLUTION or the book BINARY ECONOMICS?"

Have you tried to learn anything about the MONDRAGON COOPERATIVE of the Basque region of Spain?

and thirdly; why ISN'T mention of the Mondragon Cooperative found in either of the first mentioned books?

Readers who wish to discover the answer can cheat; search for the single word Mondragon on this site; I have already supplied one answer.

And, there is another possible answer which I have not supplied because I cannot prove it in any logical fashion.
 Quoting: Levi Philos 590644


Took my own advice and searched for Mondragon on GLP. No returns. Basque returns unrelated to topic.

That is why I regard posting on this site as a waste of time. Deep truth gets deleted.

On socialism; try Bastiat's Economic Sophism and Hayek ROAD TO SERFDOM.

On the crimes of government against "citizens" in the past century get Prof. Rommel of Hawaii - search "democide" and when you find his site there will be free articles and links to his books.
Anonymous Coward
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05/20/2010 08:29 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
The primary lesson that can be learned from Mondragon (it is in the books, but no author has clearly set out the significance) is that the Mondragon cooperative acquired a commercial bank charter early (1956 +/-) and then set up the organization such that the bank was subordinate to the cooperative board. Thus, the banking profits must recycle within the cooperative and the bank was limited in actions outside the Mondragon sphere.

This places the bank into an ownership by the people with the banker in an agency relationship.

It is in the books, but not obvious.

COPY AND PASTE THIS REPLY BECAUSE IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF THAT IT WILL DISAPPEAR JUST LIKE THE OTHER THREE OR FOUR TIMES.
Matrix
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05/20/2010 08:48 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Socialism is the trumping of collective rights over individual rights.

Corporations who don't get elected are able to contribute the lion's share of election campaign finance to those who run for pubic office. So in fact, the masses vote/select those who the corporations put there for them to choose. The corporations select the candidates, pays their way, and the masses then get the freedom to vote for those who the corporations want in office to make laws and spend tax money. It's Government by the people and for the people Idol1sheepIdol1
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 10:39 AM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
It appears to me that the present plan by the bankers is to privatize profits and to socialize losses.

How about this alternative: socialize the banks.

Not necessary to socialize everything - just make the banking business into an agency to the people where the money system becomes a mutual credit type system and seigniorage is assigned to the people.

Run the banking system as a non-profit or as a profit system with dividends dispersed annually to all adults in the nation.
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 11:17 AM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
The Money Myth Exploded: [link to www.michaeljournal.org]

Major Clifford Douglas: Social Credit websites:
[link to www.alor.org]

C.H. Douglas: Pioneer of Monetary Reform Richard C. Cook
[link to www.globalresearch.ca]

About Clifford Hugh Douglas, the genius who discovered Social Credit. Louis Even
[link to www.michaeljournal.org]

Thoughts of Douglas
[link to www.alor.org]

The Use of Social Credit
[link to www.alor.org]
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 11:19 AM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Credit as a Public Utility: the Key to Monetary Reform Richard C. Cook
[link to www.globalresearch.ca]

The Ledger that Rules the World Louis Even
[link to www.michaeljournal.org]

Restore to the people the control of their own wealth. Louis Even
[link to www.michaeljournal.org]
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 11:59 AM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
here's one good reason to fear 'socialism'



When Hitler came to power, the Institut was closed and its members, by various routes, fled to the United States and migrated to major US universities—Columbia, Princeton, Brandeis, and California at Berkeley.

The School included among its members the 1960s guru of the New Left Herbert Marcuse (denounced by Pope Paul VI for his theory of liberation which ‘opens the way for licence cloaked as liberty’), Max Horkheimer, Theodor Adorno, the popular writer Erich Fromm, Leo Lowenthal, and Jurgen Habermas - possibly the School’s most influential representative.

Basically, the Frankfurt School believed that as long as an individual had the belief - or even the hope of belief - that his divine gift of reason could solve the problems facing society, then that society would never reach the state of hopelessness and alienation that they considered necessary to provoke socialist revolution. Their task, therefore, was as swiftly as possible to undermine the Judaeo-Christian legacy. To do this they called for the most negative destructive criticism possible of every sphere of life which would be designed to de-stabilize society and bring down what they saw as the ‘oppressive’ order. Their policies, they hoped, would spread like a virus—‘continuing the work of the Western Marxists by other means’ as one of their members noted.

To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 12:07 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Bob Blain, Ph.D. Professor of Sociology, on Cooperation, Money, and Wealth
[link to www.siue.edu]
WP
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Italy
05/21/2010 01:01 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
So hopefully we will get some good dialogue on this. Please do bring your game faces.

First I would like to try and lay some ground rules.

1.) I don't want to turn this thread into an Anti-Obama, Anti-Health care thread. If you don't like him, fine with me, but lets keep the topic on Socialism over all.

2.) If possible and if you argue your point well I would like to hear what alternatives you might have. It's evident to me that today's version of western style capitalism is extremely flawed, and really isn't working.

3.) This isn't a Communist or Nazi recruitment thread either. I would simply like to discuss this topic. Please check your political dogma at the door. Hopefully we can discuss these topics with out being labeled and categorized as subversives.

So first a primer on the type of socialism I would like to discuss:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

"Socialism is a political philosophy that encompasses various theories of economic organization based on either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources. A more comprehensive definition of socialism is an economic system that directly maximizes use-values as opposed to exchange-values and has transcended commodity production and wage labor, along with a corresponding set of social and economic relations, including the organization of economic institutions, the method of resource allocation and post-monetary calculation based on some physical magnitude; often implying a method of compensation based on individual merit, the amount of labor expended or individual contribution."

So why all the fuss, or should we continue let large corporations and a very few select individuals hoard all the wealth?
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz



Americans don't like socialism because they are selfish, mean-spirited, hostile people with "i've got mine, go f@$k yourself" mentality.

Sure, there are a few oases in the States where people are a little bit more community minded, like the North East.

Forget the South, where they are only polite because the culture says you have to be. Southerners once you chip away the veneer are probably the most hateful people on the planet.......right up there with the Taliban and those Westboro Baptist people. Then there is Texas. I think we should just trade Texas for Puerto Rico. Or just give Texas back to Mexico.........that would be the Karmic version of an orgasm in my bock. I'd love to see all those Texas good ol boys and those horrid bleach blond texas women FORCED to learn Spanish.

God, I hate the USA. Thankfully I am done with it and will Never live there again.
GeosAlien
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05/21/2010 02:08 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
So why are you arguing on the side of socialism? Why do you ignoe logical posts that are anti socialism, especially those with links?

Please explain why Greece is failing. Isn't greece a very socialistic country? Did you read the post earlier that the IMF terms for Greek bailout is for Greece to PRIVATIZE some of their social programs, health care for one.

I don't know how anyone can defend socialism when the entire world is in meltdown, with socialist countries unable to meet their promises of entitlements.

Look, in a system where a janitor can expect generally the same standard of living in basic needs as a brain surgeon, and the brain surgeon is taxed heavily to provide services for the janitor, why would anyone spend their energy studying medicine to become a surgeon? You can't definitively answer that (please don't speculate). That is why socialism does not work
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 976236

========================================================

Here I have to remind you that it was the USA that triggered the current Greatest Depression. The USA know for so-called capitalism, where everybody is rich and too fat. Is that right?? No it isn't also....

I am from the Netherlands and have worked and lived around the world, and know what socialism, communism, capitalism is from my own person experiencing in daily life.

From most comments in this thread, I have to conclude that most of these persons reacting, don't really know what socialism is, and also haven't the faintest clue what it would do or not. Example, you use the Greek problem as a prove that you are right with your statement. Western Europe has introduced socialism for more than hundred of years, and I can tell you it isn't any worse than in the USA here. Probably it is even better here.

For all of your understanding, I am an entrepreneur with my own company for about 25 years. Before that I have worked for American companies around the world, including in he USA.

The one thing I would you to point out to all of you here. Albeit that it currently is necessary to earn money to allow you to have a decent living, money on its own and all other materialism, such a bigger car, a better TV, eat fat hamburgers etc., it won't make you more happy at all. Life isn't about that at all. If you life in that dream that is too bad. How much more money would one need ? To buy a bigger boat, a plane, a helicopter. You probably will be getting in to borrowing money and there you are again, locked in a cycle of pressure to survive and make more money.
Making more money, means that you are taking it away from others. If you work 84 hours a week, you are imprisoned, whilst at the same time you take away, opportunities for your fellow Americans.

If you think that the working in Europe, earning money, spending, tax paying differ a lot in America with the rest of the world. than I am afraid you don't understand much yet.

Capitalism is what we also have in Europe, with the only difference that the governments ensure that the weakest, sick and old people don't have to beg in the street, nor are dependent on their own family alone. In America this has to do through so-called well-fair, and church, gifts.

The difference is not that big I would say. other than that everyone participates by collective organisation. It is not voluntary, and left to people's generosity or not.

The advantage is that there are no "heart-breaking" inhuman situation here in Europe, whilst there still are too many such cases in the USA.

If you say that socialism is doomed in Europe, that I can guarantee you it you are totally wrong, in this case.

For now it is (for me) for sure that the USA will be the first where the society will collapse, and that is in the land of milk and honey... It will only take 4 to 6 months !!

I thank the OP for starting this topic, and I hope that the brainwashed people of the USA start realizing that there are more roads to happiness.

I really would love to have more dialogue with you guys, as I am afraid that too little people out of the USA do know what is going on in the world, for that matter.
PatrikC325

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05/21/2010 02:12 PM

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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
I am a firm Individualist which is opposed to the Collective!

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Nolan: economic freedom, personal freedom
Nolan chart
World's Smallest Political Quiz
Main article: Nolan chart

The Nolan chart was created by libertarian David Nolan. This chart shows what he considers as "economic freedom" (issues like taxation, free trade and free enterprise) on the horizontal axis and what he considers as "personal freedom" (issues like drug legalization, abortion and the draft) on the vertical axis. This puts left-wingers in the left quadrant, libertarians in the top, right-wingers in the right, and communitarians (whom Nolan originally named populists) in the bottom. It is possible to consider the Nolan chart to be an Eysenck model that has been rotated 45 degrees. The popular "diamond" presentation of the Nolan chart makes this particular comparison readily apparent.

The traditional left-right spectrum forms a diagonal across the Nolan chart, with communism and fascism both in the ultra-populist corner, an assignment hotly disputed by more liberal-minded communists who do not advocate state control over matters of personal freedom. There is some discrepancies between various forms of the model. In some, the bottom section is labeled with neutral, non-pejorative terms (such as 'communitarian') whereas others use emotional, loaded terms such as 'statist', 'authoritarian', or 'totalitarian'.

The Nolan chart has been reoriented and visually represented in many forms since David Nolan first created it, and has been the inspiration for an endless array of political self-quizzes, perhaps the most famous of these being the World's Smallest Political Quiz, which places one on the Diamond Chart. As of 2005[update] this quiz is being used in 420 schools.[21] It can be found in at least a dozen popular textbooks that feature the Quiz as part of their enhanced digital content.[22] In August 2000 Portrait of America did a telephone survey that was done using the same questions and scale.[23] More recently, The Institute for Humane Studies has created Politopia, a similar quiz. Interestingly, the Institute found that most applicants fell into the lower, populist section.
GeosAlien
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05/21/2010 03:32 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
>>First, YOU are the one making the comparison between socialism(a form of governing) and capitalism(an economic system) in your original post and subsequently throughout the entire thread.

Sorry but considering that yes socialism is a form of governing, the whole premise behind socialism is economic organization. And there fore I think it can be compared to capitalism at least on economic benefits to people.


>>Socialism is more than an economic system as evidenced by as simple a thing as the speech codes it causes... and much more. Capitalism is purely an economic system.

You. Are. Wrong.

You. are. crazy.

So my opinion is wrong, and I guess no ones ever compared the economic benefits of capitalism and socialism.
 Quoting: Jebediah Lipschitz

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Sorry OP, but yes Sinanju2 may be crazy, I don't know and you also don't know, but he is actually 100% right.

In Europe we have a capitalistic, socialistic society and that is what I described in my other post above here.
Works well, at least not worse than in the USA where you have a capitalistic egoistic society.
Fu King Chinese Restaurant (OP)

User ID: 183361
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05/21/2010 04:15 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Interesting comments.

Things to note:
1.) I have changed my user name. The name Jebediah Lipschitz was a joke but garnered too many Jew Boy comments. Not picking a fight with Jews here either, but considering that I'm not Jewish I didn't feel like using it anymore. As for the new user name, most Chinese people I know have a good sense of humor and hopefully they won't take offense because I'm not Chinese either.

2.) Again let me say this loud and clear. I DO NOT SUPPORT SOCIALISM, NOR AM I PUSHING SOCIALISM. I AGREE with all of your examples of failed SOCIALISM but would like to clarify that some of those examples were military dictatorships and in my opinion when that happens, really it ceases to be socialism and is more about megalomania. It is because it ceased to be about the people and was more about the leaders exclusive visions. Can't really have socialism with out Social Democracy. Hitler, Stalin and Mao all fit this megalomania cast for me. I will agree with all of you that these megalomaniacs were assholes, no argument, but I don't see them as true socialists in the Marxist definition.

There is an overwhelming fear socialism slung around by the likes of Glenn Beck and feel his misguided points of view run rampant here on GLP. Again not defending it, just don't like the wrong definitions. I was just curious to see how deep the Glenn Beck re-education plan goes.

Here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about.
[link to crooksandliars.com]

3.) My comparisons of socialism to capitalism, as Sinanju2 has pointed out and who has a remedial understanding of debate at best, are indeed comparing a political system to an economic system. I will state again that my only comparison was to examine the financial benefits or financial opportunities an individual might receive under each system. In my opinion that can be compared. Again that is not a defense of Socialism.

4.) My original purpose behind the thread was to explore alternatives to the present FREE MARKET economy but my mind got side tracked on this whole socialism issue. I sort of mixed the 2 topics. This error has opened my eyes though to a couple things:
a.) From what I can see most Americans don't want to have a discussion on political theory period. Even to explore the pros and cons of socialism, invites wrath and distaste. Even when, from my point of view they have their definition of socialism wrong. We will all agree to disagree.
b.) I find it extremely interesting that many Americans who embrace FREE MARKET economy also believe the Illuminati, The Fed caused by the creature from Jekyl Island is to blame, but for them FREE MARKET economy is all AOK. Don't the TPTB control both socialism and Western Democracies who use captialism. I have heard your arguments to eliminate the FED etc and return the republic. Will that fix anything considering the fact the good number of the founding fathers were masons themselves.

5.) Last point. To those who have responded with out the emotion and just gave your opinion. Thank you. I try every now and then to have intelligent discussions on this board despite whether people like it or not, find me uneducated, or react in an imbecilic over emotional fashion. It can't all be about sex advice threads, or OIL doom.

With that I leave this thread, and probably the board till Monday. My capitalist rewards of a big deck, bbq and an ice cold beer await. Until next time.

For those who say don't come back, happy fucking weekend to you to assholes.
JohnDoe

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05/21/2010 04:44 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
It appears to me that the present plan by the bankers is to privatize profits and to socialize losses.

How about this alternative: socialize the banks.

Not necessary to socialize everything - just make the banking business into an agency to the people where the money system becomes a mutual credit type system and seigniorage is assigned to the people.

Run the banking system as a non-profit or as a profit system with dividends dispersed annually to all adults in the nation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 590644


Damn fine idea. And simple too. That's why it'll never happen. There would have to be something 'bad' in it for us if it were to ever take place.

Best present alternative: EVERYBODY pull your money out of the bank.
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 04:47 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Socialism is inefficient, creates waste and goes against human nature. We are competitive beings, you take that away and remove the incentives for success you are left with mediocrity.

We need less government, not more. Everything the government touches turns to shit. How's Social Security & Medicare working out for you? Does anyone believe they will be around when we retire?
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 05:11 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
here's one good reason to fear 'socialism'

When Hitler came to power, the Institut was closed and its members, by various routes, fled to the United States and migrated to major US universities—Columbia, Princeton, Brandeis, and California at Berkeley.

The School included among its members the 1960s guru of the New Left Herbert Marcuse (denounced by Pope Paul VI for his theory of liberation which ‘opens the way for licence cloaked as liberty’), Max Horkheimer, Theodor Adorno, the popular writer Erich Fromm, Leo Lowenthal, and Jurgen Habermas - possibly the School’s most influential representative.

Basically, the Frankfurt School believed that as long as an individual had the belief - or even the hope of belief - that his divine gift of reason could solve the problems facing society, then that society would never reach the state of hopelessness and alienation that they considered necessary to provoke socialist revolution. Their task, therefore, was as swiftly as possible to undermine the Judaeo-Christian legacy. To do this they called for the most negative destructive criticism possible of every sphere of life which would be designed to de-stabilize society and bring down what they saw as the ‘oppressive’ order. Their policies, they hoped, would spread like a virus—‘continuing the work of the Western Marxists by other means’ as one of their members noted.

To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 977014


Very good post. The Frankfort School tied into the Fabian Society of England and to another Institute centered out of London that starts with "T" and which will get you an auto-ban. This last one is also a promoter of socialism.

The bankers are behind the whole show; their scheme is: Steal the seigniorage and privatize profits and socialize losses.

.
Anonymous Coward
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05/21/2010 05:22 PM
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Re: Would like to understand fellow members fears of Socialism.
Socialism is immoral because:

1. It usurps the freedom to buy and sell
2. It mandates theft of the fruits of labor, intelligence, and risk taking (for redistribution)
3. It assumes a "society" that does not exist, and then forces individual to identify and sacrifice to that false construct (which is defined entirely outside their control or consent by an elite).

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