The electrons do not exist thread. It is magnets.

electrons and even "atoms" are abstract concepts invented by man. they are abstractions of a statistical model.

there is literally nothing "down there". in fact, there is no "down there". particle physics is based on the concept of "particle" and yet there are no particles. funny huh?? any model other than the current particle model we have today would be enough to describe some of the imaginary interactions that scientists depend on in order to make accurate calculations. you could say that there are tiny apples and oranges down there and the model would hold just as well. but, of course, they give it some nice sci-fi names so that people actually believe in the existence of a" subatomic world". hahahahhahaha

when I see people talking about "electrons" with such enthusiasm, I also like to bring in stories of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

scientism FAIL

What

[link to www.mind-course.com]

Well they exist, no one has ever seen them of course, but look. Don't you feel gravity? Air? Mass? It exists. Yes. The electron exists. Actually you can't describe them because the quantum world is not the Newtonian world. The important it to know how they interact and conceive the macroscopic universe.

sorry it was J.P. Morgan

you're kidding right?

electrons are known as point particles, which means they have no size nor extension in space. so, how are we supposed to even see an electron? hahahha

electrons are part of an ABSTRACT MODEL folks

hahahha

The currents produces a perpendicular magnetic field, not the other way around. The helix I am talking about are the currents themselves inside the conductor. You are talking about the perpendicular magnetic field which gets generated on the outside of the conductor. Two separate things which are not contradictory.

Bah I don't have patience to read all that thing. Was he talking about transmiting electricity through the atmosphere electric field? Like a lightning stom?

No. Electrons have properties which gives them the title of more than simple abstract models.

Like mass (if it has mass, it occupies space), charge, spin, angular momentum,.........

Explain to me how I am feeling "electrons" right now?

All I am asking here is a bit of common sense (of the right kind).

The word "existence" is one of the most misunderstood words nowadays. Unfortunately this is a result of people lacking a basic philosophy education. First you have to understand the concept of existence before you can go out and talk about it as if you actually know what exists and what doesn't exist. In fact, one of the most neglected philosophical truths is that existence is ultimately a paradox. Thus, the most rational conclusion that anyone can have about reality is that it isn't real.

I'd like to help and suggest you to read it another day, but basically yes, with a big antenna.

Yes, it is what Tesla is most famous for, all energy energy which is in the atmosphere must return to earth and earth is a perfect conductor, by creating standing waves in tune with the natural frequency of the earth, these waves can be excited to provide all energy needs.

Oh yea? Look at this:



How can something have mass and yet it has no structure?? How can you even measure the mass of something that has no physical boundaries? Notice that the "mass" of the electron is defined in terms of the proton's mass -- it's a statistical approximation -- it has no basis in reality. Thus, it's an abstract model.

You should not feel offended by what I'm saying.

When I say "abstract model", it doesn't mean it is not an useful model that can actually predict events. That is the reality of physics: a whole bunch of assumptions and abstractions that can actually predict a thing or two about the universe.

The Maxwell Equations have symmetry, if a variable electric field produces a magnetic field, a variable magnetic field generates an electric field (a current in a conductor). These 2 variable fields propagating in space are an electromagentic wave.

I can imagine the model you are talking about. But remember that the charges are on the surface of the conductor. Never inside because of symmetry.

Yet you fail to explain how can they be helix if they have to be closed. It could be circles. Never helixes. An open field means there is a divergence, or in other words, a magnetic charge, which doesn't exist.

You feel electrons ALWAYS. If there were no electrons, matter wouldn't exist. Because.......look, you are missing a point. The question of existence is not what you can perceive right? Remember you are part of it too? Do you have a brain? How do you know? Did you ever see it? No. But you can think don't you? You don't have to "see it" to know it's real.

Imagine a closed box with a magnet inside. You don't know what's inside. Get a compass. You won't "see" anything, but you'll know there's a magnet down there. Why? You can't perceive the field, but your compass can, and then you'll know the truth. That's the way most physics works. Humans are very limited but are great genious.

You don't need to measure the speed of light with a chronometer. But 300 years ago we already knew approximately the true value.

More drivel about the electron's "mass" from Wikipedia:




"a dimensionless quantity" hahahahah

so, what they are saying is that the electron's mass is a quantity that is not a quantity. hahahahah

Now let us see what is a "dimensionless quantity":



Did you just see that? A dimensionless quantity is pure magnitude. It has no unit of measurement -> thus it is not based on any kind of physical measurement. It is just an assumption. It has no basis on physical reality. They just begin defining things circularly (one in relation to the other)...because there is no way to apply the reductionism model any further.

there is no physical manifestation directly associated to the concept of "electron". If I feel wind on my face, I see leafs blowing in the wind. If I watch TV, I am seeing a manifestation of electromagnetism, which is a real phenomenon.

Now, an electron is defined as a "subatomic particle". There is nothing, no manifestation, reaching my 5 senses that indicate the existence of the so-called subatomic world. Hence, electrons don't exist.

The transmission of energy through a single conductor without return having been found practicable it occurred to me that possibly even that one wire might be dispensed with and the earth used to convey the energy from the transmitter to the receiver.

While I was perfectly convinced, from the outset, that success would be ultimately achieved, it was not until by slow improvement I evolved the so-called "Magnifying Transmitter" that I obtained convincing evidence of the feasibility of wireless power transmission on a vast scale for all industrial purposes.

The chief discovery, which satisfied me thoroughly as to the practicability of my plan, was made in 1899 at Colorado Springs, where I carried on tests with a generator of fifteen hundred kilowatt capacity and ascertained that under certain conditions the current was capable of passing across the entire globe and returning from the antipodes to its origin with undiminished strength. It was a result so unbelievable that the revelation at first almost stunned me. I saw in a flash that by properly organized apparatus at sending and receiving stations, power virtually in unlimited amounts could be conveyed through the earth at any distance, limited only by the physical dimensions of the globe, with an efficiency as high as ninety-nine and one-half per cent.

The mode of propagation of the currents from my transmitter through the terrestrial globe is most extraordinary considering the spread of the electrification of the surface. The wave starts with a theoretically infinite speed, slowing down first very quickly and afterward at a lesser rate until the distance is about six thousand miles, when it proceeds with the speed of light. From there on it again increases in speed, slowly at first, and then more rapidly, reaching the antipode with approximately infinite velocity. The law of motion can be expressed by stating that the waves on the terrestrial surface sweep in equal intervals of time over equal area, but it must be understood that the current penetrates deep into the earth and the effects produced on the receivers are the same as if the whole flow was confined to the earth's axis joining the transmitter with the antipode. The mean surface speed is thus about 471,200 kilometers per second--fifty-seven per cent. greater than that of the so-called Hertz waves--which should propagate with the velocity of light if they exist. The same constant was found by the noted American astronomer, Capt. J.T.T. See, in his mathematical investigations, for the smallest particles of the ether which he fittingly designates as "etherons." But while in the light of his theory this speed is a physical reality, the spread of the currents at the terrestrial surface is much like the passage of the moon's shadow over the globe.

It will be difficult for most people engaged in practical pursuits to measure or even to form an adequate conception of the intensity of inspiration and force I derive from that part of my work which has passed into history. I have every reason to consider myself one of the most fortunate men, for I experience incessantly a feeling of inexpressible satisfaction that my alternating system is universally employed in the transmission and distribution of heat, light and power and that also my wireless system, in all its essential features, is used throughout the world for conveying intelligence. But my pioneer efforts in this later field are still grossly misunderstood.

The concept "elementary particle" is an abstract concept to point out it is indivisible. But it occupies space. The mass is measured by experiences, like the thomson. Yes, it can be done, and, as a fermion, it has inertia.

Just because you don't see boundaries, doesn't mean it doens't have ones.

It's not a statistical approximation. The Thomson experiment calculates the electron's mass by macroscopic ways.

I do not feel offended, why should I cara?

The only thing abstract is the superstring model, which has absolutely no evidence of being true. And about that yes I agree, It's only a model to suit the nees of creating a unified theory.

come on, the notion of space doesn't even hold "down there". it's all a sea of probability. there can be no boundaries because there is no space. and there are no particles.

It's all about the wave model. and the wave model is in its essence a statistical model.

All I saying is that you should review your concept of reality. the only reality that actually exists is the physical reality perceived by your 5 senses DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY. To believe in anything else is to be deceived. The subatomic world is not 'real'.

But this doesn't mean that studying abstract models (instead of merely believing in them) won't result in something useful.

I would not use Wikipedia as a reliable source but......

Electron mass = 9.1x10^-31 Kg
Proton mass = 1.7x10^-27 Kg

You quoted from wikipedia the ratio between them, which is a useful value in many physics exercises about the Bohr's atom. Of course the ratio doesn't have dimensions, it's a relation of numbers (like this is x times bigger than that)


If I say "Portugal Soccer team is three times more expensive than Brazil's" the number 3 is a relation, a pure number.

But the true value of each team is expressed in €. In this case, the € is the dimension.

There are particles but they are too small for us to see, so all we can see are the representation of them which appear as waves.

Actually you can sense more than your just 5 senses, but that's another story

The fact that you exist, it's a prove that electrons exist. But you might not be conscious about that. You are saying what is real is what you perceive, but reality is more than that. Because the human mind is limited, you have to get other sources to reach the truth. As they are a product of your genious, they are validated.

No No NO you can actually SEE the waves as a particle, and the particle as a wave. They have both properties. (See Young experiment and de Brouglie)

I'm not so sure about that strict 5 senses thesis. The reality is not everything you perceive, there are things you can't but are there. Or maybe they affect you but you can't perceive them.

You are affected by everything, and you affect averything.

Do you notice that lightning tends to hit the tallest objects. In the North hemisphere the South pole magnets
are going up, and the North pole magnets coming down in the same flash. The lightning will only strike if the north and south magnets are too concentrated.

Last Edited by ttown_okie on 06/02/2010 10:57 PM

No, I'm saying that what is real is what you experience directly , sometimes not only with your 5 senses. To believe in anything more is self-deception. I have never felt anything that could be likened to the idea of a tiny little bit of matter called "electron" and I guess neither did you.

In other words, you believe in the existence of "stuff" that you cannot sense or perceive directly? There is no proof for the existence of those particles, not only because there is none, but also because it's impossible to prove the existence of abstract concepts.

Do you consider yourself a rational person?

So I guess that if I bring in the subjects of aliens, reptilians , Planet X , etc you will keep an open mind? See, that is why most rationalists are hypocrites.

Since we are talking about reality, I'm currently trying to figure out what it is or what's the cause of the PSI force. It's intriguing because it appears to change the outcome of events, like if it interferes with the probability wave of events and other stuff. Unfortunately I'm not very good at it, and very few science colleagues seem to be interested about that. Without any kind mathematics or formulas behind it, it will be difficult to continue.

OK sir I understand your point of view. I am indeed an extremist individual who has found out that it's dangerous to validate and accept any reality other than your own. This is how mind control is done: by inserting a false reality inside one's mind and then manipulating one's thinking process by leading them to believe in that reality more than in their own.

There is no other reality except the one I perceive. Period. If another reality is presented to me, I will neither disbelieve nor believe in it. I will just keep an "open-closed" mind, looking forward to the opportunity of validation of such reality.

I don't know if it tends to hit the tallest objects, but the sharpest ones for sure

I don't know what are you refering to north/south pole magnets. Earth's magnetic field is due to the rotation of the external liquid nucleus, which has magnetic properties.