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JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/19/2010 11:00 AM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"35 Radioisotope Heater Units (RHUs) on the Experiment and Top Platforms continuously providing about one Watt each even when the Probe is dormant. "

Direct from the source, they were RHU's and that makes the hypothesis more believable since the RHU's reach criticality much easier, likely it took more than 1000 feet though sinking into into the methane/ice permafrost of Titan.

?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/19/2010 11:04 AM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to sci.esa.int]
RHU data for Huygens

[link to sci.esa.int]
Instrument diagrams

[link to www.planetary.org]
Location of landing

[link to www.scientificamerican.com]
Strange storm on Titan
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/19/2010 11:20 AM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
'A European spaceprobe called Huygens landed on its surface in 2005 and photographed channels and deltas as well as Titan's own "lake district". But what there did not appear to be was clouds.

But a giant telescope on Hawaii has spotted a cloud system explode in the atmosphere causing ripples of other clouds to form around the moon, scientists report in the journal Nature this week.

Professor Mike Brown, of the California Institute of Technology, said Titan was usually a "very bland place, weatherwise." He added: "We can watch for years and see almost nothing happen."'
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:10 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"Pu 238 is not "weapons grade plutonium" (Pu 239), as NASA is quick to point out, as though this were reassuring or comforting. In fact, Pu 238 is about 280 times MORE radioactive than Pu 239. What this means is that it decays about 280 times FASTER. That is, its half-life is 1/280th that of Pu 239. Pu 238's half-life, according to NASA, is 87.75 years (some technical books give a slightly different value). Pu 239, on the other hand, has a half-life about 280 times longer, or roughly 24,131 years (NASA's figure again.)

Of the 72.3 pounds of plutonium dioxide, 11.852% is oxygen and 2.413% is "other" (described as "small amounts of long-lived actinides and stable impurities" in NASA's June 1995 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Cassini mission). The rest is plutonium. Here is the full breakdown of the plutonium components, from page 2-18 of the 1995 EIS:

Fuel component (Weight % at launch) (Half-life)

Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)"


[link to www.animatedsoftware.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:12 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"Pu 238 is not "weapons grade plutonium" (Pu 239), as NASA is quick to point out, as though this were reassuring or comforting. In fact, Pu 238 is about 280 times MORE radioactive than Pu 239. What this means is that it decays about 280 times FASTER. That is, its half-life is 1/280th that of Pu 239. Pu 238's half-life, according to NASA, is 87.75 years (some technical books give a slightly different value). Pu 239, on the other hand, has a half-life about 280 times longer, or roughly 24,131 years (NASA's figure again.)

Of the 72.3 pounds of plutonium dioxide, 11.852% is oxygen and 2.413% is "other" (described as "small amounts of long-lived actinides and stable impurities" in NASA's June 1995 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Cassini mission). The rest is plutonium. Here is the full breakdown of the plutonium components, from page 2-18 of the 1995 EIS:

Fuel component (Weight % at launch) (Half-life)

Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)"


[link to www.animatedsoftware.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 990606


This was referring to Cassini's load, but the mix is the same for all RTG/RHU's and LWRHU's.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:14 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"35 Radioisotope Heater Units (RHUs) on the Experiment and Top Platforms continuously providing about one Watt each even when the Probe is dormant. "

Direct from the source, they were RHU's and that makes the hypothesis more believable since the RHU's reach criticality much easier, likely it took more than 1000 feet though sinking into into the methane/ice permafrost of Titan.

?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 990606



I believe Huygens actually may have had LWRHU's, not the larger RTG/RHU's because the wattage matches that, so it would have had to go 10's of miles into Titan (maybe even 100) to get these to go super.
Anonymous Coward
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06/21/2010 09:22 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Rather than investigating the possibility that the impacts were human-caused and a couple possibly not impacts at all, or researching the possibility that something extraordinary in happening, astronomers have simply adjusted the odds of impacts occurring on Jupiter. That is the easy way out and not a strictly scientific approach.

Sure it's a scientific approach. Instead of guessing a statistic with no available data, you adjust to new data. It would be very unscientific to do otherwise. Of course, the alternative is to ridiculously say we are doing something noticeable to a massive gas giant by sending teeny weeny probes into its atmosphere...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:25 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Rather than investigating the possibility that the impacts were human-caused and a couple possibly not impacts at all, or researching the possibility that something extraordinary in happening, astronomers have simply adjusted the odds of impacts occurring on Jupiter. That is the easy way out and not a strictly scientific approach.

Sure it's a scientific approach. Instead of guessing a statistic with no available data, you adjust to new data. It would be very unscientific to do otherwise. Of course, the alternative is to ridiculously say we are doing something noticeable to a massive gas giant by sending teeny weeny probes into its atmosphere...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1008380


I making the new data available, and simply not considering new alternatives to theories that don't seem to fit IS bad science.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:28 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Rather than investigating the possibility that the impacts were human-caused and a couple possibly not impacts at all, or researching the possibility that something extraordinary in happening, astronomers have simply adjusted the odds of impacts occurring on Jupiter. That is the easy way out and not a strictly scientific approach.

Sure it's a scientific approach. Instead of guessing a statistic with no available data, you adjust to new data. It would be very unscientific to do otherwise. Of course, the alternative is to ridiculously say we are doing something noticeable to a massive gas giant by sending teeny weeny probes into its atmosphere...


I making the new data available, and simply not considering new alternatives to theories that don't seem to fit IS bad science.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 990606



By the way, a match is a teeny weeny light that can ignite an entire forest.

Fission starts as a small spark but has tremendously large heat potential to be a catalyst for action.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:32 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Calculating "hits" on Jupiter is partly based on the number of assumed hits the Earth has taken. To adjuct Jupiter hits means that have to adjust all planet "hits", so it's actually a fairly large change of view.
Anonymous Coward
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06/21/2010 09:39 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
not considering new alternatives to theories that don't seem to fit

What theory isnt fitting? The fact that there are more impacts than previously thought? That wasnt a theory, just an assumption based on a guess (not observation nor data). But even wild theorizing that something different is happening than previous, the theory of increased Oort cloud or asteroid belt disturbances have more plausibility than what you are proposing. I mean you've thrown out alot of numbers and speculation that I havent even seriously considered, given the outlandish premise...

IMO that is.
Anonymous Coward
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06/21/2010 09:41 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Calculating "hits" on Jupiter is partly based on the number of assumed hits the Earth has taken. To adjuct Jupiter hits means that have to adjust all planet "hits", so it's actually a fairly large change of view.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 990606


How so? Jupiter pulls is alot more by its gravitational pull, so its mere size in space is not all there is. Plus it is alot closer to millions of rocks and debris that can easily be attracted to it...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 09:43 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Not just more, but many times more impacts than previously thought. Do you realize the outlandish odds it takes for a significant object to hit Jupiter? It's quite the chore even for this big planet, so to go from "every thousand years" to "every ten years" is a very significant change in view for our solar system.
Anonymous Coward
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06/21/2010 09:58 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Not just more, but many times more impacts than previously thought. Do you realize the outlandish odds it takes for a significant object to hit Jupiter? It's quite the chore even for this big planet, so to go from "every thousand years" to "every ten years" is a very significant change in view for our solar system.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 990606


Well, yes, it is significantly different, But is it significant? It probably just means we are looking more intently,,, and Voila! we observe more impacts.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 10:37 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Not just more, but many times more impacts than previously thought. Do you realize the outlandish odds it takes for a significant object to hit Jupiter? It's quite the chore even for this big planet, so to go from "every thousand years" to "every ten years" is a very significant change in view for our solar system.


Well, yes, it is significantly different, But is it significant? It probably just means we are looking more intently,,, and Voila! we observe more impacts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1008380


That would mean we should be seeing more Earth impacts also then. Did you know that before SL-9, comet impacts on Jupiter were not considered possible because of the extreme odds?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 10:40 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Now it's like they are trying to pretend they are almost common, it's a big switch.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 10:44 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Now, combine the fact that the new hits should not really be happening with the fact that the marks or flashes are not acting like impacts and you have the reasons to look for something else as the cause.

Wesley Mark stayed in position at 57S, 216...it was not suppose to.

Wesley/Go flash was suppose to cause debris, it did not.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/21/2010 10:45 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Jupiter mystery spot of 2003 was not suppose to be possible as an "equator hit", yet it was there.
DanfromtheHills

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06/21/2010 10:52 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
bump
"Nothing to see here, go back to sheep..." --- AC 1251379
scouse66
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06/22/2010 02:34 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
what does this all mean? What is the thread trying to say in lay mans terms please..
Anonymous Coward
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06/28/2010 03:44 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to www.universetoday.com]

Fairly new article stating that Jupiter may be a homogenous mix of a new kind of liquid made of a metallic Hydrogen/Helium infusion all the way to the center....


This made we think of a new twist on what they've been doing to Jupiter:

All of the objects that have ever hit Jupiter in the past have all contained heavier elements than what Jupiter is made of.

Now, we have introduced in relatively large quantities, a very unnatural element that would not have ever entered Jupiter naturally, PLUTONIUM.

DESPITE what happens to the initial FORM of this element (i.e., it's initially a pellet), and I'm speaking of plutonium here, the ATOMS of this element eventually make their way to the VERY CENTER of the homogenous mixture called JUPITER. Why? Because Plutonium is the heaviest of elements to ever enter Jupiter in this kind of quantity.

Reagardless of their circuitous route, their possible melting and rerouting, they HAVE TO GO TO THE CENTER, because of their relatively HIGH DENSITY in comparison to ALL OTHER JUPITER ELEMENTS.

On an ATOMIC LEVEL, the Pu keeps FALLING AND FALLING, even atom by atom if need be, BUT IT KEEPS ACCUMULATING AT THE CENTER SLOWLY, GRADUALLY.....

!!!

?
Anonymous Coward
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06/28/2010 03:59 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

At 94 atomic weight plutonium is the heaviest into Jupiter now....

This article states "70,000,000 bars at the center of Jupiter..."

Let's say the Pu pellets eventually break up and melt at about 1/2 way into Jupiter, if they do not fission at this point, you have widely separating "globs", tiny to a bit larger globs, of Pu drifting around but ever falling to the center....

If they do fission early, and at just 10,000,000 bars you would not need much to do it....just a tiny bit, you would get these fissioning nuclear fissile events that we are seeing come out of Jupiter....these might be from slightly larger "globs" that did not separate enough.

Whatever DOES NOT fission, makes its way to the center of Jupiter, atom by atom if need be until ENOUGH has accumulated at the center to FISSION at 70,000,000 bars.

How much Pu does that take? Not much!
Anonymous Coward
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06/28/2010 04:04 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Key questions would be:

"Does the plutonium stay intact as plutonium, even on an atom by atom investigation?"

"Is there any reason that the atomic structure of plutonium gets disrupted to become NOT plutonium on the way in?"

There is evidence that Pu-238 half-lifes to Uranium-234, and that some actually absorbs a nuetron over time and becomes Pu-239, an even more fissile isotope.
Anonymous Coward
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06/28/2010 04:07 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
You may see widespread Pu DISPERSION, but then much later on REACCUMULATION at the VERY CENTER OF JUPITER since THIS IS WHERE THE HEAVIEST MUST GO.
Anonymous Coward
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06/28/2010 04:12 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
So right now it like "drip, drip, drip" waiting for Plutonium to accumulate at the center atom by atom until there is a super-critical, fissionable and fissile amount at the center. ?

How long would it take to make it there?
Anonymous Coward
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06/28/2010 04:14 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
If this was done knowingly, they have set in motion an irreversable cycle, the trojan horse into Jupiter.

Jupiter's only defense is to fission the Pu early and in small enough amounts as to not cause a run-away reaction.
Czarcasym
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06/28/2010 04:44 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to www.vimeo.com]

looks like a flashlight shining on a kitchen table in a darkened room, and holding a camcorder in one hand.

bsflag
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1006224



What a dick... Do you not watch any news or media coverage???

This was everywhere, internet and MSM...

Do some research...


rockon
Anonymous Coward
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06/30/2010 10:01 AM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
So right now it like "drip, drip, drip" waiting for Plutonium to accumulate at the center atom by atom until there is a super-critical, fissionable and fissile amount at the center. ?

How long would it take to make it there?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360



Using Stoke's law and fluid dynamics formulas, the best guess based on known data would put certain small globules of Pu inside Jupiter from 64% to 82% of the way in to the center.
V = (2gr²)(d1-d2)/9µ
Anonymous Coward
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06/30/2010 03:32 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
So make the following assumptions:

- Jupiter has no rocky core, is homogenous throughout getting more dense as you approach the center. (this is becoming the prevalent view)

- A few pounds of Pu may survive to the center of Jupiter, to rain down to there, sink to there, inserted by NASA.

- Only Osmium will sink further than Plutonium, and Jupiter likely contains only a trace of Osmium.

- Plutonium globules will accumulate to the very center of Jupiter over time if it remains intact as Plutonium, how long this takes is uncertain, but it recieved a head start with the graphite carriers.

- Before reaching the very center, concentrations of Pu will still be relatively high enough to cause a fission reaction with only a tiny fraction of what its critical was at bar 1 (because of near 70 million bars of even pressure applied).
Anonymous Coward
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06/30/2010 03:33 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Element - Room Temp Dens. - Melting Point Dens.

Osmium - 22.6 - 20
Plutonium - 16 - 19.84
Platinum - 21.45 - 19.77
Iridium - 22.4 - 19
Rhenium - 21.04 - 18.9

At melting point, as you can see, only Osmium beats Plutonium in density (of the non-exotic elements).

Plutonium is unusual in that its density INCREASES once melted.

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