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JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/30/2010 03:40 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to www.globalsecurity.org]

"Another unusual feature is that unalloyed plutonium melts at a relatively low temperature, approximately 640°C, to yield a liquid of higher density than the solid from which it melts. In addition, the elastic properties of the delta face-centered cubic (fcc) phase of plutonium are highly directional (anisotropic). That is, the elasticity of the metal varies widely along different crystallographic directions by as much as a factor of six to seven."
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"Plutonium is a complex and perplexing element. Plutonium is a unique element in exhibiting six different crystallographic phases at ambient pressure (it has a seventh phase under pressure). The densities of these vary from 16.00 to 19.86 g/cm3. Plutonium has six temperature-dependent solid phases -- more than any other element in the periodic table. Each phase possesses a different density and volume and has its own characteristics. Alloys are even more complex; you can have multiple phases present in a sample at any given time. Because plutonium is so complex, surrogate materials cannot give a complete picture of plutonium's characteristics."
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Element - Room Temp Dens. - Melting Point Dens.

Osmium - 22.6 - 20
Plutonium - 16 - 19.84
Platinum - 21.45 - 19.77
Iridium - 22.4 - 19
Rhenium - 21.04 - 18.9

At melting point, as you can see, only Osmium beats Plutonium in density (of the non-exotic elements).

Plutonium is unusual in that its density INCREASES once melted.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360


[link to en.wikipedia.org]


The above needs modification:

Plutonium increases to 16 from 15.92 as it goes to melting phase, and then goes back to near 20 only as extreme pressure is applied to it.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Osmium - 22.6 - 20
Platinum - 21.45 - 19.77
Iridium - 22.4 - 19
Rhenium - 21.04 - 18.9

Plutonium - 19.86 - 16 - (back to 19.86, when extreme pressure is applied)

This is more correct.
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"Plutonium in the δ phase (delta phase) normally exists in the 310 °C to 452 °C range but is stable at room temperature when alloyed with a small percentage of gallium, aluminium, or cerium, enhancing workability and allowing it to be welded in weapons applications. The delta phase has more typical metallic character, and is roughly as strong and malleable as aluminium. In fission weapons, the explosive shock waves used to compress a plutonium core will also cause a transition from the usual delta phase plutonium to the denser alpha phase, significantly helping to achieve supercriticality.[4] The plutonium-gallium alloy is the most common δ-stabilized alloy."

alpha (α) simple monoclinic 19.86
beta (β) body-centered monoclinic 17.70
gamma (γ) face-centered orthorhombic 17.14
delta {δ) face-centered cubic 15.92
delta prime (δ′) body-centered tetragonal 16.00
epsilon (ε) body-centered cubic 16.1
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"The delta phase has more typical metallic character, and is roughly as strong and malleable as aluminium. In fission weapons, the explosive shock waves used to compress a plutonium core will also cause a transition from the usual delta phase plutonium to the denser alpha phase, significantly helping to achieve supercriticality."
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/30/2010 10:48 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
So make the following assumptions:

- Jupiter has no rocky core, is homogenous throughout getting more dense as you approach the center. (this is becoming the prevalent view)

- A few pounds of Pu may survive to the center of Jupiter, to rain down to there, sink to there, inserted by NASA.

- Only Osmium will sink further than Plutonium, and Jupiter likely contains only a trace of Osmium.

- Plutonium globules will accumulate to the very center of Jupiter over time if it remains intact as Plutonium, how long this takes is uncertain, but it recieved a head start with the graphite carriers.

- Before reaching the very center, concentrations of Pu will still be relatively high enough to cause a fission reaction with only a tiny fraction of what its critical was at bar 1 (because of near 70 million bars of even pressure applied).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360



Trying to determine whether Pu reacts with metallic Hydrogen/Helium mix that the new studies point to, or does it try to stay separtate regardless of the temp or pressure?

Also, What happens to the Oxygen in the Pu-Oxide when it melts?

Does Pu-238 change faster to 239 under these massive pressures? Or does it change to a different isotope?

How long can the graphite shields hold the Pu mix? Is it possible that under extreme and even pressures they manage to hold together much longer than 4000 K melting point?

Tons of questions/answers that would affect what the Pu does on the way in.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:22 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to www.3rd1000.com]

Pu-238, (half-life 87 years)
Pu-239, fissile (half-life 24,200 yrs)
Pu-240, fertile (half-life 6,500 yrs)
Pu-241, fissile (half-life 14 years)
Pu-242, (half-life 37 600 yrs)


Half-life is the time it takes for a radionuclide to lose half of its own radioactivity. The fissile isotopes can be used as fuel in a nuclear reactor, others are capable of absorbing neutrons and becoming fissile.


This indicates indeed Pu-238 CAN absorb a neutron to become fissile.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:25 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
The same site also states that Pu-O2 is a very stable compound, so it would be resistant to recombining, yet remains fissionable/(fissile with the proper mix).

Pu can combine with C to make PuC

Pu can combine with O to make PuO and PuO2

Also PuCO2 is also possible

I don't see much in relation to PuH or PuHe.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:26 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
My guess is that it would like to remain PuO2, but some could combine witht the graphite to make PuCO2. Most likely. ?
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:32 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
My guess is that it would like to remain PuO2, but some could combine witht the graphite to make PuCO2. Most likely. ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360



Pu-O2 melting point much higher than Pu

Pu-O2 2390 Celcius
Pu 640 Celcius
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:35 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
2663 K melting point PuO2
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:42 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Graphite is near 4000 K for melt point
Pu-O2 is near 2700 K for melt point

So the compound would melt inside the carrier, the carrier keeps getting crushed smaller and denser which would seem to increase its integrity thereby increasing its melting point higher, but at some point the carrier does melt I would suppose even if at 5000 or 6000 K, but not before crushing the PuO2 inside it by quite a bit.

Not sure what happens then, except it seems like the carriers do get the substance fairly deep intact before melting themselves.

So at about half way into Jupiter you still have globules of PuO2 that are just about to seep out of the graphite containers.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 01:48 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Reading the article above, they do make the point that any amount of Pu must be carefully separated when working on it because getting to much together in a sphere and such can cause criticality even at 1 bar. For Pu-239 this was a 10cm ball.

So you can imagine that the critcality point for any fissile Pu at 60,000,000 bars about 90% the way into Jupiter is EXTREMELY LOW, reagardless of whether its melted or not.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Reading the article above, they do make the point that any amount of Pu must be carefully separated when working on it because getting too much together in a sphere and such can cause criticality even at 1 bar. For Pu-239 this was a 10cm ball.

So you can imagine that the criticality point for any fissile Pu at 60,000,000 bars about 90% the way into Jupiter is EXTREMELY LOW, regardless of whether it's melted or not.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 02:50 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
[link to www.chemguide.co.uk]
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 02:50 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360

If it converted from liquid to solid, the pressure would tend to decrease again because the solid takes up slightly less space for most substances.

That means that increasing the pressure on the equilibrium mixture of solid and liquid at its original melting point will convert the mixture back into the solid again. In other words, it will no longer melt at this temperature.

To make it melt at this higher pressure, you will have to increase the temperature a bit. Raising the pressure raises the melting point of most solids. That's why the melting point line slopes forward for most substances.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 02:52 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
"Raising the pressure raises the melting point of most solids."

It's true then, when you increase the pressure of the graphite carriers you also have to apply more heat to them before they will change state to liquid.

Pressure acts to increase melting point.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 03:14 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Some comments:

1) The densities given for various elements (including Pu and Os) are for pure elements at room temperature and pressure. However, the Pu sent to Jupiter was an oxide (not in pure metallic form) so the listed densities are not appropriate.

2) The half-life of an isotope does not correlate with its fissibility. Pu-239 is much more fissile than Pu-238. Also, there are different mechanisms to cause fission. Pu-239 has a very large cross-section for undergoing fission induced by slow neutrons. Other isotopes have higher probablities of fissioning with fast neutrons, and others can spontaneously fission.

3) You cannot use the critical mass of Pu-239 as a means of estimating a critical mass for Pu-238. They have different nuclear decay properties.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 03:41 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
The following are six significant events that have occurred on Jupiter in the past 16 years:

1) 1994 – SL-9 and Galileo Imaging of the Event (July 16-22)

 Quoting: Sirius Dog

HEY BEASTS
The imaging was done by amateur astronomers.
The fact that SL-9 took place as NASA was preparing to stage the climax of the Galileo hoax is called God's Irony.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 04:10 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)

Here was the mix at the start, this with O2, and all heavily shielded by multi-layer graphite carrier.

The mix has changed due to half-life and reactions, and neutron absorbtions.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 04:57 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Plutonium dioxide: "11.852% is oxygen and 2.413% is "other" (described as "small amounts of long-lived actinides and stable impurities" in NASA's June 1995 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Cassini mission). The rest is plutonium. Here is the full breakdown of the plutonium components, from page 2-18 of the 1995 EIS:
Fuel component (Weight % at launch) (Half-life):

Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)”

[link to www.animatedsoftware.com]
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 05:16 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Plutonium dioxide: "11.852% is oxygen and 2.413% is "other" (described as "small amounts of long-lived actinides and stable impurities" in NASA's June 1995 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Cassini mission). The rest is plutonium. Here is the full breakdown of the plutonium components, from page 2-18 of the 1995 EIS:
Fuel component (Weight % at launch) (Half-life):

Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)”

[link to www.animatedsoftware.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360



A chemistry student should be able to tell us the density of the starting mix with the Oxygen included.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 06:31 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Plutonium dioxide: "11.852% is oxygen and 2.413% is "other" (described as "small amounts of long-lived actinides and stable impurities" in NASA's June 1995 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Cassini mission). The rest is plutonium. Here is the full breakdown of the plutonium components, from page 2-18 of the 1995 EIS:
Fuel component (Weight % at launch) (Half-life):

Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)”

[link to www.animatedsoftware.com]



A chemistry student should be able to tell us the density of the starting mix with the Oxygen included.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203360

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

The density of plutonium dioxide is 11.5 gm / cm3
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/01/2010 07:40 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
Plutonium dioxide: "11.852% is oxygen and 2.413% is "other" (described as "small amounts of long-lived actinides and stable impurities" in NASA's June 1995 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Cassini mission). The rest is plutonium. Here is the full breakdown of the plutonium components, from page 2-18 of the 1995 EIS:
Fuel component (Weight % at launch) (Half-life):

Pu 236 (0.0000010%) (2.851 years)
Pu-238 (70.810%) (87.75 years)
Pu-239 (12.859%) (24,141 years)
Pu-240 (1.787%) (6,569 years)
Pu-241 (0.168%) (14.4 years)
Pu-242 (0.111%) (375,800 years)”

[link to www.animatedsoftware.com]



A chemistry student should be able to tell us the density of the starting mix with the Oxygen included.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

The density of plutonium dioxide is 11.5 gm / cm3
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 973304


Awesome, thanks for that, not sure why I did not end up on that site at some point.... 11.5
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
The final mix over time ends up having all sorts of decay products of Pu-Oxide including U-234 and Np-237 I think, but the density should not change that much just from those things. The density WILL INCREASE though as a result of the great pressures of Jupiter on the graphite shield around the Pu-mix. So expect that 11.5 to go up significantly.

Now, it seems that these shields have a good chance of staying intact for quite a bit longer. I will try to get some sort of profile on the temp vs. pressure of this situation to see if the graphite used here can indeed stay intact.

Just looking initially at the figures, we have temps going from 0 to 35,000 K (top to center of Jupiter)

and

0 to 70,000,000 bars pressure (top to center)

This alone suggests that indeed pressure can keep up with the temps to the point of holding the carriers INTACT.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
The following are six significant events that have occurred on Jupiter in the past 16 years:

1) 1994 – SL-9 and Galileo Imaging of the Event (July 16-22)

 Quoting: Sirius Dog

HEY BEASTS
The imaging was done by amateur astronomers.
The fact that SL-9 took place as NASA was preparing to stage the climax of the Galileo hoax is called God's Irony.
Anonymous Coward
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07/01/2010 08:06 PM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
What we do know for a FACT is that "they" DO fire stuff at planetary bodies. Remember the recent moon stuff?

It would not surprise me if NASA and whoever else were trying to ignite jupiter or set off some kind of chain reaction. The consequences could be cataclysmic though...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/04/2010 11:28 AM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
There are 6 layers of protection tightly surrounding each one of these Pu-Oxide pellets:

1) 1/2" thick aero-heat shield (graphite with some other elements)
2 thru 5) 4 x graphite-carbon insulators (4 insulators = 7/16” total)
6) .04” thick Rhodium-Platinum alloy. Inside sits the Pu-Oxide (Pu-238/239 plus a small amount of Oxygen) of .006 pounds.

This extremely durable containter for the Pu-Oxide has a melting point of around 4000 K to start with.

As pressures increase exponentially, temperatures are only increasing linearly. This allows the containers/carriers to stay INTACT AS A SOLID and not melt since as pressure increases, so does melting point.

We have a perfect scenario for these carriers to indeed stay intact ALL OF THE WAY TO THE CENTER OF JUPITER.

Now, if JUPITER is indeed homogenous without a "rocky core" which is the new prevailing trend of belief, we have a situation where these pellets drift ever closer over the years nearly to the center of Jupiter while every year the mix becomes more fissile due to Pu-238 absorbing a neutron to become 239. (Even if this does not happen as easily as suggested, nuclear agencies have classified this mix as borderline "weapons possible").

At some point criticality is reached because of extreme pressures changing the criticality point. This same concept is used in the "gun method" to increase criticality likelihood in some conventional nukes, only in our case EXTREMELY EVEN PRESSURE IS BEING UNDENIABLY SUPPLIED from ALL SIDES (of nearly 70,000,000 bars!!!) on a container that gets ever more dense but does not melt! And no escape is possible from the container because of the even application of pressure.

A fissile fission reaction may result then causing a nuclear explosion. If this reaction can reach 40,000,000 K, there is the real potential for a FUSION reaction to immediately follow since we have heavy Hydrogen readily available just outside the containers and starting fusion requires more heat than fission to start.

If fusion is NOT reached, you end up with just a very hot nuclear explosion that creates an extremely pressurized bubble that wants to rise to the "surface" of Jupiter (Wesley Mark 2009?, and Mystery Mark 2003 from RTG/RHU's?)

If fusion temps CAN be reached, Jupiter can temporarily go to a short-lived star in a fusion chain reaction. But short-lived in astronomical time could mean hundreds of years.

This scenario seems viable.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/04/2010 11:33 AM
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Re: JABBING JUPITER - Testing the Titan
There are 6 layers of protection tightly surrounding each one of these Pu-Oxide pellets:

1) 1/2" thick aero-heat shield (graphite with some other elements)
2 thru 5) 4 x graphite-carbon insulators (4 insulators = 7/16” total)
6) .04” thick Rhodium-Platinum alloy. Inside sits the Pu-Oxide (Pu-238/239 plus a small amount of Oxygen) of .006 pounds.

This extremely durable containter for the Pu-Oxide has a melting point of around 4000 K to start with.

As pressures increase exponentially, temperatures are only increasing linearly. This allows the containers/carriers to stay INTACT AS A SOLID and not melt since as pressure increases, so does melting point.

We have a perfect scenario for these carriers to indeed stay intact ALL OF THE WAY TO THE CENTER OF JUPITER.

Now, if JUPITER is indeed homogenous without a "rocky core" which is the new prevailing trend of belief, we have a situation where these pellets drift ever closer over the years nearly to the center of Jupiter while every year the mix becomes more fissile due to Pu-238 absorbing a neutron to become 239. (Even if this does not happen as easily as suggested, nuclear agencies have classified this mix as borderline "weapons possible").

At some point criticality is reached because of extreme pressures changing the criticality point. This same concept is used in the "gun method" to increase criticality likelihood in some conventional nukes, only in our case EXTREMELY EVEN PRESSURE IS BEING UNDENIABLY SUPPLIED from ALL SIDES (of nearly 70,000,000 bars!!!) on a container that gets ever more dense but does not melt! And no escape is possible from the container because of the even application of pressure.

A fissile fission reaction may result then causing a nuclear explosion. If this reaction can reach 40,000,000 K, there is the real potential for a FUSION reaction to immediately follow since we have heavy Hydrogen readily available just outside the containers and starting fusion requires more heat than fission to start.

If fusion is NOT reached, you end up with just a very hot nuclear explosion that creates an extremely pressurized bubble that wants to rise to the "surface" of Jupiter (Wesley Mark 2009?, and Mystery Mark 2003 from RTG/RHU's?)

If fusion temps CAN be reached, Jupiter can temporarily go to a short-lived star in a fusion chain reaction. But short-lived in astronomical time could mean hundreds of years.

This scenario seems viable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 990606


[link to en.wikipedia.org]

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