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Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens

 
Titanic Captain
User ID: 1014440
United States
06/24/2010 03:39 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Let's re-arrange the deck chairs!
Max_OverDrive

User ID: 764867
Thailand
06/24/2010 03:40 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Its all an illusion anyway. a high amount of governments are oligarchies, plain and simple. Those who have the money and the power rule. Citizens are mere spectators.

"National Interests" are nothing more than the interests of those in power. It doesnt trickle down either, so dont go there...
Based on Human Civilization-
If the past is unknown,then the present is unfounded.
In all probability, the future is uncertain.
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nrg
User ID: 989174
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06/24/2010 03:40 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Direct democracy via informed consencus.

Easy Hire Cern to create open source real time voting with redundant substations and a month for voting and tallying.

any one who can review the information and make a competent choice (long review time for all issues brought up before the public.)

An online vote could easily and securely replace the current political structure(at least for domestic affair) and still allow the people in Washington to be useful in matters of secrecy(and introducing bills too we the people), On a leash.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1010412
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06/24/2010 03:41 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Question: How many total electoral votes are there?
Answer: 538.

That's right. With the current electoral college system, only 538 US citizens' votes actually count.

The other 307,006,512 US citizens' votes do NOT count.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 471789


Your a fucking retard.
rancelot
User ID: 240916
United States
06/24/2010 03:42 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
We are not, and were never intended to be a democracy. The founders were smarter than that.

I will never support becoming a democracy.
 Quoting: Evil Twin


Why is a Republic better than a Democracy?
Max_OverDrive

User ID: 764867
Thailand
06/24/2010 03:43 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
USA is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, but its not.



Based on Human Civilization-
If the past is unknown,then the present is unfounded.
In all probability, the future is uncertain.
-Max_OverDrive
Evil Twin

06/24/2010 03:43 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
We are not, and were never intended to be a democracy. The founders were smarter than that.

I will never support becoming a democracy.


Why is a Republic better than a Democracy?
 Quoting: rancelot 240916

Because a Republic protects individual rights. A democracy does not.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 969627
United States
06/24/2010 03:43 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Oooooh, electoral doom!

popular vote is what brought Hitler to power

when 51% of the people decide what the other 49% do

we no longer are a republic we become a democracy

the other 49% lose all their rights



Hitler never had the popular vote.

Nevertheless, sadly, I'm sure your propaganda will wash the brains of some people.

The electoral college system is antiquated. A national popular vote is a step in the right direction toward every individual's vote being equal. Whether you like it or not, we no longer live in an era of separatism when it comes to federal laws (i.e. laws that affect everyone in every state).

Of course, the fairest US system would be to have preferential voting/ballots, on top of that, to truly reflect the public's needs and erode the two party tyranny.

Someday, I hope!
 Quoting: The Kite

agreed
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1009672
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06/24/2010 03:44 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Of course they have to change it.. Ron Paul's base has figured out how to game it the next time around just like Barry Goldwater's supporters were able to do in the 60's against Rockefeller. Obama's supporters also did this in those states that held caucuses. That's mainly how he was able to defeat Hillary even though she won the bigger states. Regardless of which system is in place...

Ron Paul 2012!!!!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1014370
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06/24/2010 03:44 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
electoral college folks been getting death threats

true

can't tell you how i know
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 957169
United States
06/24/2010 03:46 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Kiss Our DEMOCRACY HELLO IF this happens!


GOOD BYE RETARDLIC!

WELCOME BACK, DEMOCRACY!
Alamais

User ID: 976597
United States
06/24/2010 03:46 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
There really is no republic.

Vote Communist party- get a communist government

Vote Republican party- get a republican government.

Vote Democrat party- get a democratic government.


Democratic- majority rule. 51%

This is why Health care bill passes with just 51%

You choose your form of government lol.


health care bill didnt pass with 51%, it was that bullshit manipulation called reconciliation. its/was a sham and a way to wriggle through extremely unpopular legislation.

when the system gets ripped apart and bent so much as that excuse of a process they used you might as well kiss your opinion goodbye.


Did it pass with 2/3rds? No. lol dont get hung up on the words and process. Health care did pass with 51% Mob rule. Democratic rule. Democratic form of government.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 786793


oh i agree with you, i guess i am getting hung up on the words, but if the democrats would have listened to their constituents, it was not 51% of the popular vote, it was 51% of the bought and paid for politicos. i don't agree with a democracy, i am a firm believer in a constitutional republic, as long as the people's representatives aren't so obiously disregarding their constituents.
rancelot
User ID: 240916
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06/24/2010 03:47 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
We are not, and were never intended to be a democracy. The founders were smarter than that.

I will never support becoming a democracy.


Why is a Republic better than a Democracy?

Because a Republic protects individual rights. A democracy does not.
 Quoting: Evil Twin


You lost me there. Please explain.

In our Republic you give up your right to vote to 538 electors. There's something wrong with that picture IMHO.
Ragman

User ID: 590942
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06/24/2010 03:47 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
We are not, and were never intended to be a democracy. The founders were smarter than that.

I will never support becoming a democracy.


Why is a Republic better than a Democracy?

Because a Republic protects individual rights. A democracy does not.
 Quoting: Evil Twin


+1
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 488035
United States
06/24/2010 03:48 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
I kissed our Republic goodbye almost nine years ago.
CN

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06/24/2010 03:49 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Oooooh, electoral doom!

popular vote is what brought Hitler to power

when 51% of the people decide what the other 49% do

we no longer are a republic we become a democracy

the other 49% lose all their rights
 Quoting: aVian


Completely illogical. Only in the electoral system does the minority opinion get silenced -- the <49% of a state's voters lose their voting rights because their vote is erased once all of the state's electoral college reps vote for the >51% candidate.

Last Edited by NascentLife on 06/24/2010 09:09 PM
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 913496
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06/24/2010 03:50 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
This could backfire, though, aVian, assuming they don't make voters out of 20 million Mexicans. There's going to be a lot of pissed off Californians when they have to give all those electoral votes to Sarah Palin.
 Quoting: Rev-bo

I wonder if the plan includes a new class of "popular Presidential voters" who do not need to be citizens. Then it would be easier to get those 20 million voting in 2012.

Just a horrible thought, hope it's completely wrong ...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 848576
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06/24/2010 03:51 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
bsflag
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1014049


antibs
rancelot
User ID: 240916
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06/24/2010 03:52 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Why is a Republic better than a Democracy?

Because a Republic protects individual rights. A democracy does not.
 Quoting: Evil Twin


You lost me there. Please explain.

How does a republic protect individual rights better than a democracy?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 913496
United States
06/24/2010 03:52 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
... Five states have already approved NPV, but now three additional states are dangerously close to joining them: Delaware, Massachusetts, and New York. ...
 Quoting: aVian

wtf is Delaware doing supporting this lame idea? Delaware voters get a better weight in the current system, since # electoral votes = # senators + # representatives, and # senators = 2 for every state.
Evil Twin

06/24/2010 03:53 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Democracy:

A government of the masses.

Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.

Results in mobocracy.

Attitude toward property is comunistic-negating property rights.

Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate. whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.

Results in demagogism license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

Democracy is the "direct" rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success.

A certain Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler, nearly two centuries ago, had this to say about Democracy: " A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a Dictatorship."

A democracy is majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. Whatever the majority says goes! A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Republic:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.

Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure.

Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.

A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.

Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.

Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:

1.

an executive and
2.

a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create
3.

a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize
4.

certain inherent individual rights.

Take away any one or more of those four elements and you are drifting into autocracy. Add one or more to those four elements and you are drifting into democracy.

Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They "made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic."

A republic is a government of law under a Constitution. The Constitution holds the government in check and prevents the majority (acting through their government) from violating the rights of the individual. Under this system of government a lynch mob is illegal. The suspected criminal cannot be denied his right to a fair trial even if a majority of the citizenry demands otherwise.
aVian  (OP)

User ID: 903212
United States
06/24/2010 03:53 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
put it this way, if you control the media, you control the vote

look at my tag line if you dont understand
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frédéric Bastiat

food, water, ammo, weapons, battery back up solar, hand well pump, wood stove and 1 year of food...oh yeah PM's too...good luck
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1013261
United States
06/24/2010 03:56 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
The electoral college has become as corrupt the rest of our government. It is an idea that served a purpose at one time, but with "super delegates" and any other perversions of the vote by Washington insiders, it may be time to rethink the whole system. I would rather have the votes from my state go to the candidate the state chose than to have someone chosen by politicians in Washington "promise" to vote for that person.
militia
 Quoting: Epic Beard Guy

bump
ExhaleAeonVolts

User ID: 810969
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06/24/2010 03:58 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
We are not, and were never intended to be a democracy. The founders were smarter than that.

I will never support becoming a democracy.


Why is a Republic better than a Democracy?

Because a Republic protects individual rights. A democracy does not.


+1
 Quoting: Ragman

govt graph
He who controls the past controls the future, and he who controls the present controls the past. -1984
Evil Twin

06/24/2010 03:58 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
In any Democracy, there can be no legal system which protects The Individual or The Minority (any or all minorities) against unlimited tyranny by The Majority. The undependable sense of self-restraint of the persons making up The Majority at any particular time offers no protection whatsoever.
ShadowDancer

User ID: 287857
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06/24/2010 04:01 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Question: How many total electoral votes are there?
Answer: 538.

That's right. With the current electoral college system, only 538 US citizens' votes actually count.

The other 307,006,512 US citizens' votes do NOT count.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 471789





I agree


we have to move past this as well and remove the corruption and all the illegal laws put in effect by fraud


for decades...time to take out the criminals and the people to hold onto the liberties we are sworn to uphold hf
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TX PATRIOT
User ID: 1011195
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06/24/2010 04:02 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
We are not, and were never intended to be a democracy. The founders were smarter than that.

I will never support becoming a democracy.
 Quoting: Evil Twin


Afuckin'men!!
.
rancelot
User ID: 240916
United States
06/24/2010 04:02 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
Democracy:

A government of the masses.

Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.

Results in mobocracy.

Attitude toward property is comunistic-negating property rights.

Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate. whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.

Results in demagogism license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

Democracy is the "direct" rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success.

A certain Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler, nearly two centuries ago, had this to say about Democracy: " A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a Dictatorship."

A democracy is majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. Whatever the majority says goes! A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Republic:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.

Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure.

Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.

A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.

Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.

Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:

1.

an executive and
2.

a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create
3.

a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize
4.

certain inherent individual rights.

Take away any one or more of those four elements and you are drifting into autocracy. Add one or more to those four elements and you are drifting into democracy.

Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They "made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic."

A republic is a government of law under a Constitution. The Constitution holds the government in check and prevents the majority (acting through their government) from violating the rights of the individual. Under this system of government a lynch mob is illegal. The suspected criminal cannot be denied his right to a fair trial even if a majority of the citizenry demands otherwise.
 Quoting: Evil Twin


Good answer.

One point. But as you can see from Tytler's comments on democracy, our Republican form of government has already fallen into the same trap.
Max_OverDrive

User ID: 764867
Thailand
06/24/2010 04:05 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
I am all for a Republic in the USA, but if you think you are living in a true Republic then I will have to disagree.

The country has not been ruled by the people for a long, long time... if ever.

Those in power, for the most part, are ABOVE THE LAW. Many in power would have been hanged for their treasonous actions against the USA. Since they are above the law, it is NOT a republic.
Based on Human Civilization-
If the past is unknown,then the present is unfounded.
In all probability, the future is uncertain.
-Max_OverDrive
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 415939
United States
06/24/2010 04:05 PM
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Re: Kiss Our Republic Good bye IF this happens
The truth is our country's population has grown far too large to maintain the current model of government.

Centralized power for a population so large is not good.

This nation needs to be segmented into 5 regions, with 5 presidents.
None of them having any more power than the other.
any national decisions would have to be a cooperative effort between the 5 regions.

When power is divided up, it makes it extremely difficult to destroy, whether from the inside ( as we are seeing now ) or from an outside threat.





GLP