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Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!

 
Rock Reynolds nli
05/26/2005 12:58 PM
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Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Greetings all!! This is Rock Reynolds comin’ to you folks in Internet Land!



I loved Star Wars III (opening night). By far, my favorite parts of the movie were the Chancellor’s efforts to seduce Anakin.

But I thought that Lucas held back on the Dark Side talk. The Dark Side talk was very compelling and totally believable, but it seemed to not lead Anakin far enough for Anakin to fall. Anakin seemed to fall too quickly.

I think that Lucas intentionally held back on the Dark Side talk. I’m not so sure that Lucas really wants us to be THAT familiar with the Dark Side. The real Dark Side is much more insidious than what is portrayed in Star Wars III (Still, an AWESOME movie!).



But not to worry…



Right here on this forum…



A leading Christian has filled in the gap left by Lucas!!!



Yes, folks!! 344, a leading Christian (At least I THINK he’s a leading Christian. He talks like he’s the Head Muther-Fucker What’s In Charge.), puts George Lucas to shame with his argument that “destruction of the flesh” is good. 344’s arguments BLOW AWAY any of the “Dark Side” talk in Star Wars III.



INTRODUCTION

1 Corinthians, Chapter 5, Verse 5, is the most evil passage in the history of mankind.

In this passage, Saul orders his followers to “destroy the flesh” of a man who had been fucking his step-mother.

In previous threads, on my challenge, 344 rose to the occasion, and defended Saul’s order to “destroy the flesh” of this man.

344’S ARGUMENT
A summary of 344’s argument is that the man repented, was forgiven, and was let back into the church. In other words, Saul’s instruction to order the “destruction of flesh” of this man, caused evil to stop.

CRITICAL MASS
Folks, this is where the “Dark Side” argument reaches critical mass. Do you accept 344’s EXCUSE, for Saul’s order to “destroy the flesh” of that man?





BACKGROUND

344 and I had engaged in discussions on previous threads, about “destruction of the flesh”.

I can’t find links to those old threads (I have copies of my stuff), but 344 and I have picked up this discussion again on my “Nobody Saw a Resurrected Jesus” Thread.

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
message.php?page=1&topic=3&message=
110690&mpage=1&showdate=
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The following snippets were taken from the above thread, with date/time stamps included:




5/25/2005. 5:29 am EDT. In the following post, 344 claimed victory over me in his defense of “destruction of the flesh”.

You forgot, Rock ... I thoroughly demolished your misinterpretation of the I Cor. 5 account some time ago ... you slithered away from the thread and never returned.



5/25/2005. 1:41 pm EDT. I responded to 344, with a summary of what I thought were the major issues:

Here’s what I recall:

Yes, indeed, 344, we do agree on the issue that you enthusiastically jumped at the chance to defend your Satanic Master Saul, over my charge that his instruction to “destroy the flesh” of his church member, may be the most evil passage in the history of mankind.

I recall, 344, that, since you yourself were somewhat concerned that Saul’s sentence may have been a “little harsh” (understatement of the year), you did what any good Christian would do, you INCREASED THE CRIME of the man. So, instead of the man in 1 Corinthians, Ch 5, fucking his stepmother, you increased his crime to “fucking his mother”. God forbid, 344, that you should ever question your master Saul.

I recall, 344, that you used the standard two arguments that Christians use to respond to Rock Reynolds:
- Standard Christian Excuse #1: The words don’t mean what they say; and,
- Standard Christian Excuse #2: We Christians have “special knowledge” (What you call “Holy Spirit”) that allows us to ADD facts to the scripture.

I recall, 344, that you are a master of another standard Christian defense, circular reasoning. You throw out multiple EXCUSES, many of which conflict with EACH OTHER, and you jump from excuse to excuse as each one is shot down, eventually ending up on the first excuse, where the process starts all over again.

Thus, when you combine the standard excuses with the circular reasoning, you end up with your claims that:
- The man deserved “destruction of the flesh” (nice one, 344!).
- “Destruction of the flesh” didn’t really mean “destruction of the flesh”. “Destruction of the flesh” REALLY MEANT a modest rebuke (Wow!! Where do you Christians come up with these fairy tales?).
- The man repented and was allowed back into the church (a teensy-weensy “detail” that Saul forgot to include in his letters).



5/25/2005. 8:39 pm EDT. 344 returned to answer the challenge.

Hi, ole´ "Rock in The Cranium"!

Sorry friend, the man having sex with his father´s wife in the Corintian church DID repent, and was readmitted into fellowship at Paul´s urging. So there was no "destruction of the flesh." Shall I repost my answers from that thread to demonstrate your ignorance and bias? Your recollections of the post are tainted and innacurrate -- as are your reasoning powers, objectivity, and awareness of reality.




POINT OF CONCESSION, FOR ONE THREAD ONLY, BY ROCK REYNOLDS

344 has argued that the subject in question had been forgiven.

I have argued with 344, that there is no basis for his claim that the man repented.

But God spoke to me last night. God told me, “Rock, CONCEDE that point. It doesn’t make a fucking bit of difference, whether or not Saul’s evil instructions were carried out. Saul’s instructions remain as EVIL as ever.”

And I done saw the light, just as God explained it to me.


So, for the remainder of this thread only, I, Rock Reynolds, hereby CONCEDE to 344, that the man in question repented and was forgiven.




BUT THE CONCESSION DON’T CHANGE NUTHIN!

But I’ve got bad news for 344.

The fact that Saul’s evil edict was not carried out, doesn’t make a fucking bit of difference.

The edict is still evil. Saul’s remains as big of an asshole as ever for having issued this edict.

Furthermore, this “destruction of the flesh” passage provides so-called “Inspired” authority for the Inquisition and witch hunts, activities with which 344 would be well pleased.




SUMMARY

Don’t be fooled by 344’s argument that Saul’s “destruction of the flesh” order was good. 344 will argue:

“Hey everybody, look at the good results that came about as a result of Saul’s order? The man repented. The church forgave him. He was allowed back into the church. Evil came to an end. Everyone ended up happy.”



I can’t stop anybody for falling for 344’s argument, but I ain’t fallin’ for it. I consider 344’s defense of “destruction of the flesh” to be an abomination to God.


Forget George Lucas. 344 will provide the TRUE Dark Side message.



Rap wif ya’ later.

Rock
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Rock, I am familiar with the ´charge to do as I say´ as S/Paul advised and the ´destruction´ never did take place. Maybe he didn´t know all the relevant facts. It matters little.

I recall another warning about ´Hymenious (sp?)& Alexander´ who were ´delivered unto Satan´ for apparent blasphemy.

I respect you as an individual, Rock, but your beliefs about other matters are too far out there for me to take you seriously. Nothing personal.

Trip down memory lane: concert with the "Beatles imitators." I recall you thought it was a great show!!!
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Foolish Bison
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Rock,

The flesh is used throughout the New Testament (look through the middle chapters, 5-8 of Romans) to refer not to the physical body, but instead to selfish desires (i.e. hedonism, lust, etc.).

Paul counselled that they people stop trying to get this guy to quit and just let him go out and do whatever he wanted (after a number of rebukes, likely, given the model for corporate action in a church stated more explicitly elsewhere).

So he went and did what he wanted and found it ultimately sick and unfulfilling.

The destruction of the flesh is not some literal beating, or the destruction of some good part of a person. Paul says in Romans that the flesh and spirit are constantly fighting one another, so that people do what they don´t want to do, and don´t do what they do want to do. And the flesh (evil desire) is slowly being destroyed by the spirit (good desires of God).
Rock Reynolds nli
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Greetings everyone!! This is Rock Reynolds comin’ to you bitheads out there in Cyberspace Conspiracy Land!



Hi 15475!! Thanx for the comment!

15475, From your words, I wasn’t quite sure how you felt about Saul’s “Destruction of the Flesh”.

It sounded almost as if you may have been “satisfied” with 344’s excuse that the sentence wasn’t carried out, but I hope that I misunderstood.

Thanx for the memory lane comment. I don’t recall exactly what I had said. The bands do an excellent job imitating the Beatles. Truthfully, though, I’d much rather go watch a rockabilly or classic, twangy country western band.



Hi 1553!! Thanx for the bump!



Hi Foolish Bison!! Thanx for the comments!

Foolish Bison, I’ll be up front about something.

I consider people who defend “destruction of the flesh”, as you and 344 are doing, to be lower than whale shit. Of course, I mean that in a loving and constructive way.

But I hereby accuse you of the same abomination of which I accuse 344.

You may convince 100 more Christians to visit this thread and claim that “destruction of the flesh” is nothing, but I’m not gonna change my mind about this, because I can read.

Foolish Bison, you said:

“The flesh is used throughout the New Testament…to refer not to the physical body, but instead to selfish desires”

Foolish Bison, your “Christian Mind Tricks” do not work on me. I will not allow you to confuse the words “flesh” and “sin”.

Per YOUR recommendation, here is Romans, Chapter 8, verses 1-9, in which the word “flesh” is mentioned 9 times.


[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



Foolish Bison, In every single case, the word “flesh” refers to the PHYSICAL body (as opposed to the “spirit”), and “sin” refers to the “selfish desires”. Verse 3 especially demonstrates this use by combining, and, therefore, differentiating, between the two. (“sinful flesh” and “sin in the flesh”). Foolish Bison, you would argue that “sinful flesh” is “evil evil”.

Foolish Bison, you said, “The destruction of the flesh is not some literal beating, or the destruction of some good part of a person.”

Foolish Bison, apparently you are unfamiliar with Saul’s history.

According to the Book of Acts, Saul was happy to oversee the stoning to death of Stephen, as Saul watched the coats of the people doing the stoning.

According to Acts, Ch 8, verse 1,
“And Saul was consenting unto his (Stephen’s) death.”

Foolish Bison, Saul had a HISTORY of watching, endorsing, and OVERSEEING murders in the name of God. These were PHYSICAL murders, Foolish Bison. Foolish Bison, Saul EAGERLY accepted his duties as a witch hunter.

Acts, Ch 8, Verse 3: “As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison.”

Foolish Bison, that you have seen fit to join this forum, and publicly endorse “destruction of the flesh”, is a real indicator of the problems with religion today.

Foolish Bison, you are lower than whale shit.



Rap wif ya’ later.

Rock
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
You remind me of an Indian at his first sight of beads-everything is "awesome" and "incredible".How old are you?You would certainly appear to have an infantile cast of mind.
Rock Reynolds nli
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Hi 877!! Thanx for the post!

I´m 52, but people have accused me of acting "younger" (I´ll stick with my euphemism.).

877, what do you think of the theme of this thread?



Rap wif ya´ later.

Rock
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
In instructing the congregation at Corinth as to the action to take toward a member of the congregation who had wickedly been committing incest with the wife of his father, the apostle Paul wrote: “Hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.” (1Co 5:5) This was a command to expel the man from the congregation (not to actually kill him), cutting off all fellowship with him. (1Co 5:13)

Turning him over to Satan would put him out of the congregation and into the world over which Satan is the god and ruler. Like “a little leaven” in “the whole lump” of dough, this man was “the flesh,” or fleshly element inside the congregation; and by removing this incestuous man, the spiritually minded congregation would destroy “the flesh” from the midst of it. (1Co 5:6, 7) Similarly, Paul handed Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan, because they had thrust aside faith and a good conscience and had experienced shipwreck concerning their faith.—1Ti 1:20.

Later, the incestuous man in Corinth apparently repented from his wrongdoing and cleaned up, prompting the apostle Paul to recommend his being received back into the congregation. In exhorting them to forgiveness, he gave as one of the reasons, “that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.” (2Co 2:11) In the first instance, Satan had brought the congregation into a bad condition in which they had to be reproved by the apostle, for they were too lenient, in fact, were letting the wicked man carry on his practice without regard for the reproach it brought, being “puffed up” in allowing it. (1Co 5:2)

But on the other hand, if they now swung to the other extreme and refused forgiveness to the repentant one, Satan would be overreaching them in another direction, namely, that he could take advantage of their becoming hard and unforgiving. Through God’s Word, Christians are enlightened to realize Satan’s existence, his power, his designs and purposes, and his manner of operation, so that they can fight this spiritual foe with the spiritual weapons God provides.—Eph 6:13-17.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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BTW, no matter what horrible thing we have committed in life we ALL have the ability to turn around and put our lives on the straight and narrow path. That means repenting of the act or wrong doing and not doing it again.
IRYW
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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No one can take the "sin" out of someone. "Sin" can only be reliquished voluntarily by the person committing the "sin".

So, for Saul to order his followers to “destroy the flesh” of a man who had been fucking his step-mother, it is an impossible task, (if you are referring to "sin". If he is instructing them to beat the man until he says he´s sorry then...the passage makes sense.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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They are not talking about beating the man but expelling him out of the congregation.
IRYW
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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So you´re telling me that the literal transaltion of “destroy the flesh”, is suppose to be "kick him out of the congregation"...that´s retarded.
Jeff
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Rock Reynolds,

The entire Bible, both the entire Old Testament and the entire New Testament, is God´s Holy Word. When you call God´s Holy Word a lie, you are calling God a lier - you speak blasphemy - you are a Blasphemer.

You must put your FAITH in God´s Holy Word, in Christ Jesus (as our God made flesh). You must repent. You must be Born-Again. Here is the definition of FAITH: BELIEF THAT DOES NOT REST ON LOGICAL PROOF OR MATERIAL EVIDENCE.

If you can´t have faith (as a child), then you can´t find God (through our Saviour, Christ Jesus) - then you can´t receive forgiveness and salvation - then your name will be erased from the Book of Life.

...And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
a catholic priest
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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TRUE STORY!!!!



The mass was fine and full of reverance. The congregation soaked it up as usual. After the mass I went out back to change my clothes. Some of the altar boys were around too so I told three of them to come with me. We went out to the back of the church ans I told the boys to strip off. They were used to this by now. After they got naked I began to suck their little dicks. They loved it...what male wouldnt? I was getting harder and harder and needed to fuck them. I told them all to lie down on the ground in a circle. We all lay down and sucked eachothers dicks. I stuck my throbbing dick up each of their tight little bums in turn. Finally I came into the mouth of the eldest one...he was 12. The youngest was eight...he had the tightest bum. After this I sent them home to their mothers with strict instructions and threats not to tell. Even if the DID tell the church would look the other way. After all...all the priests did it. We are not allowed to marry so what the fuck are we supposed to do with our physical drives? But the church will not change its doctrine. Besided..little boys are so much better than women. So smooth and soft and they cant get pregnant.
paranoid eyes
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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are you going to heaven or are you going to wail in eeeternal torment in the eeeternal fahrs of hayel like these ignorant folks?



People who are in Hell, because they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior!

(JOHN 3:16)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

(Titus 3:5a)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us"

(John 3:18)

"He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

(Matthew:18:3)

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."


Mahatma Ghandi

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us"
anorexic bastard has a special place in hail due to his womanizin and cavortin with known prostitutes.


Isaac Asimov

He was an atheist, and proud of his Jewish heritage.
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
crappy writer who neverr made his heros christians


Albert Einstein

E=mc2 this!
Non-Christians go to Hell! You had your chance Albert!
Maybe you should have discovered Christianity!
e this and m that... this really makes me mad. shoulda been figurin out how to ghet on gods good side insted of thinkin bout them meaningless numbers


The Marx Brothers

All non-believers, all Dead, all in Hell! "?.he that believeth not is condemned already"
jews what can i say. god hates jews. thats why he made nazis




Anne Frank

"...I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are really good at heart."
O.K. But people who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior still go to Hell.
Sorry Kid!
jesus really hates this one cause she´s a jew.


Carl Sagan

Atheist. The Pulitzer Prize, the TV Show "Cosmos", the Joseph Priestley Award "for distinguished contributions to the welfare of mankind", NASA Medals for Exceptional Scientific Achievement, Apollo Achievement Award, Etc. Awards don´t count for anything if you don´t have Jesus!

gods gonna kick his ass personal. here is a learned man too stupid to accept jesus and pay ten percent to the oral roberts ministry.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
- Mark Twain, Letters from the Earth

The two Testaments are interesting, each in its own way. The Old one gives us a picture of these people´s Deity as he was before he got religion, the other one gives us a picture of him as he appeared afterward.
- Mark Twain, Letters from the Earth

The Christian´s Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes...The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.....There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.
- "Bible Teaching and Religious Practice," Europe and Elsewhere
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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"Who can estimate the misery that has been caused by this most infamous doctrine of eternal punishment? Think of the lives it has blighted of the tears it has caused of the agony it has produced. Think of the millions who have been driven to insanity by this most terrible of dogmas. This doctrine renders God the basest and most cruel being in the universe. Compared with him, the most frightful deities of the most barbarous and degraded tribes are miracles of goodness and mercy. There is nothing more degrading than to worship such a god. Lower than this the soul can never sink. If the doctrine of eternal damnation is true, let me share the fate of the unconverted; let me have my portion in hell, rather than in heaven with a god infamous enough to inflict eternal misery upon any of the sons of men."

.........."Heretics and Heresies", 1874
Rock Reynolds
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Greetings everyone!! This is Rock Reynolds comin´ to you folks in Internet land!



Hi 184!! Thanx for the comments!

184, when Saul said, “Drive the wicked from among you,” Saul meant to throw a person out of the congregation.

Maybe it’s just me, but I see a significant difference between “destroy the flesh” and “drive the wicked from among you”.

184, unlike Jesus, Saul embraced the Old Testament, which is FILLED with requirements to torture and murder “sinners”. Saul grew up with these themes, and he never stopped pushing his Old Testament agenda.

“Destruction of the flesh” means “destruction of the flesh”, you dipshit. Saul didn’t mince words. He was a fucking Pharisee.

You are willing to hand your soul over to Saul, based on the assumption, “Don’t worry about those words. They’re harmless. Just sign right here.”

Better you than me.



Hi IRYW!! Thanx for the comments! I agree.



Hi Jeff!! Thanx for the comments! It’s important to hear from the Satanic point of view, which you embrace so passionately.

Jeff, I’m not the only person you mention in your post who has called portions of “God’s Holy Word” a lie. Jesus also pointed out “evil” in the Old Testament, and, Jeff, Jesus spoke with much more authority than you.

So Jeff, you’re cool with genocide, murdering of babies, and the torture and execution of “sinners”??? You are really fucked up, dude.



Hi paranoid eyes!! Thanx for the comments!



Hi 12017!! Good comments! For the life of me, I just don’t understand how Christians can claim that the Old Testament directives to torture and murder, come from the same God that Jesus described as “loving” and “forgiving”.



Rap wif ya’ later.

Rock
Rock Reynolds
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Greetings all!! This is Rock Reynolds comin´ to you folks in Cyberspace Conspiracy land!



344! Foolish Bison! 184! Jeff!


Have you assholes ever thought about being stoned??? I don’t mean the good kind. I mean the bad kind.


What would it be like, to have to sit there, virtually motionless, while every part of your body gets pelted with stones?

(pssst!!! Hey Jeff!! You getting’ a boner???)

Your face gets caved in a little at a time. Maybe you lose all your teeth, then your eyes.


Oh….what’s that????


Folks, we have to wait a minute while Jeff goes to the bathroom.


He’s back now???


OK. We can resume.


Anyways, you dildo brains, this horrific invention was the SPECIALTY of Saul.


And he ENJOYED it, you smegma-breath rump-rangers.
Acts, Ch 8 verse 1: And Saul was consenting to his (Stephen’s) death.


You fucksticks, Saul’s job was to organize mobs to bash people’s faces in.


But then, he got converted?????


And now, 10 years after Saul so eagerly organized DEATH squads, when Saul says “destruction of flesh”, it means to throw someone off the stewardship committee???


Ex-SQUEEZE me for thinking, but no thanks, you douche bags.


You guys are all extreme assholes for pushing this Satanic agenda.


Rap wif ya’ later.

Rock
Foolish Bison
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Rock-

Sorry I haven´t really paid attention to this thread over the last day or so.

As for Paul, yeah, he did stone Stephen. It was brutal. Paul himself says that no one is more of a sinner than he is. He certainly seems to have a long record.

What is so offensive to you about the idea of forgiveness?

Putting ´destruction of the flesh´ aside for a moment, you seem to have a deeper problem with Paul and with christians in general.

Is it offensive that a man would presume to give moral advice and counsel if he has ever done anything wrong? Why? Do you see a better way?

BTW- I know that condemnation and belittling are fairly typical ways for ´christians´ to respond to people who don´t believe the same things. But I´ll make you an offer. How´s about we make an attempt at civil discussion? If I violate that, then fair enough. I fucked it. But can we at least make an attempt to talk, instead of throwing up walls and insults? I´d like that.

Also, I don´t have any christian mind tricks. I can barely even float my coffee cup to myself in the morning.
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12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
The early Christian congregations did kick people out who were unrepentant. They didn´t stone them as these followers of Christ were not under the Mosaic Law anymore. The stoning had stopped. Jesus and God would deal with these unrepentant sinners in due time. Christians were not suppose to pick up a sword (or rock) and hurt or kill anyone physically.

Remember when Jesus told anyone without sin to cast the first stone at a sinful woman? No one could do it. They were all sinners. Jesus was preparing them for a time when the Mosaic Law would be gone because Jesus himself was going to fulfill it and institute something better. The law of the Christ. Love and the forgiveness of those who were truly repentant. Again Jesus and his Father will deal with those unrepentant sinners in the future.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Also, what is the best way to deal with a trouble maker in a family? Kill them? No. You first try to help them get back on the right path but if they refuse then you get them out of the house and refuse to have anything to do with them until they change their ways.

That is what Jesus was teaching and how the Christian congregations should be run. Today we see "Christian" churches letting anyone do and live anyway they want when it is contrary to the Bible. And as long as these unrepentant sinners keep giving money these churches turn a blind eye. Even the heads of these churches are doing things contrary to Bible teachings. This is not how it was in the first century and not how it should be now. The weeds and the wheat will be separated with a vengence soon.
Foolish Bison
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
1549-

Well said.
lurtzy
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Should have mentioned that 184 has it right and agree with Foolish Bison. And that destruction of the flesh will occur when someone leaves God even if that person is still alive. Leaving God is like spiritual suicide. There is no longer any hope for that person unless they return to God and repent. And when the physical death does occur there is no hope of a resurrection since they sinned on purpose and left God with full knowledge of what they were doing. It would be like that person never even existed.

And why berate Paul? He did horrible things when known as Saul (before he had accurate knowledge) but the man turned his life around and realized what he was doing was wrong. He is a good example that even a murderer can turn around and serve God whole heartedly. Would any of us who had a bad past want people to keep bringing it up and holding it over our heads when we have repented and no longer do such things? I don´t think so.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
wthreadafro
Benu
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
1. Sins are forgiven by God not by a church or another man/woman.
2. To know you have sinned is different to acting upon it.
3. In the end judgment is what greets us and decides our future.

The dark-side is what we are all led to believe and that is this life.

hiding
Soothsayer
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
The entire Bible, both the entire Old Testament and the entire New Testament, is God´s Holy Word. When you call God´s Holy Word a lie, you are calling God a lier - you speak blasphemy - you are a Blasphemer.
--------------------------------------------------
Here is where you are showing your ignorance.

Do you know the history of the Bible? I doubt it.

The New Testament was written and edited by MEN.

Even the Old Testament is cherry-picked ancient history rewritten to show one god instead of many.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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Re: Better than “Dark Side” Talk in Star Wars III!!! Leading Christian Defends “Destruction of the Flesh” on GLP!!
Quoting Rock (from his other related thread), who was misquoting the book of Corinthians regarding the disfellowhipped man:

"When they lit the torches with the man tied to the stake, he said, “OK!! OK!! Nobody ´asplained´ it to me before!! I repent!!”

-------------------------------------------------

Please, Rock, do you really believe this, or are you being faceticious? I think the latter. You know the man was never "tied to the stake." He was simply sent back into the world of darkness and illusion, as one who had been previously enlightened to see beyond that realm. This was to help him reawaken, not to destroy him. It was also to keep him from infecting the congregation he was associated with with what were some dangerous attitudes and actions that were shocking even in the permissive and libertine context of ancient Corinth.

So Paul´s motivation was correction -- not childish, vindictive, psychopathic "punishment."
And the man did indeed repent and turn around. Here is the reference, from the NIV version (any version is clear on this):

"If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent–not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven–if there was anything to forgive–I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes" (II Cor. 2:5-11).

Again Rock, to reiterate, the man repented and was readmitted into the Corinthian church. So the phrase "destruction of the flesh" CANNOT mean an absolute irrevocable condemnation to physical death, because that did not occur.

The passage in I Cor. 1:5 we are discussing is one seized upon by people such as yourself to portray Paul as some kind of a judgmental autocratic psychotic -- therefore an analysis and exegesis of the Greek words translated as "destruction of the flesh" is called for. In other words, people need to dig a bit deeper to get the intended meaning and context. Compare various translations -- the KJV language is often archaic and sometimes poorly translated regarding the richness and depth of Greek compared to English -- but few ambiguous or unclear passages remain so after a closer look. He are a few other translations of the verse:

"You are to deliver this man over to Satan for physical discipline [to destroy carnal lusts which prompted him to incest], that [his] spirit may [yet] be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

"Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."

In Paul´s writings the sinful nature is equated with the flesh. So I allow Paul to interpret Paul. Many confirming verses could be cited. Continuing:

"Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan´s hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns."

So again, Rock, what do you say to the fact that this man was readmitted into fellowhsip, his flesh still intact? Nobody stoned him; nobody tortured him; nobody put him to death -- not even your despised Paul. You can´t say anything, because the letter to the Corinthians says what it says -- but you refuse to acknowledge what it says -- it demolishes your thesis and your obsession that Paul is a legalistic pharisee who loves to see people squirm and suffer. Paul said, In II Cor. 5, regarding this matter:

"For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears (COMMENT: but to you, Rock, here Paul is just showboating and parading a false love and humility before the Corinthians in order to promote his facade -- that is the only response you can give, because you reject any autheticity or authority of the text) not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.

"If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent–not to put it too severely. THE PUNISHMENT INFLICTED ON HIM BY THE MAJORITY is sufficient for him (COMMENT: notice, Rock it was not Paul that inflicted the punishment, but the majority of the congregation). Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him."

Rock, you said that Paul inflicted some kind of torturous death penalty on the man, and you weren´t even acquainted enough with the letters to the Corinthians to know that the man repented after being disfellowhiped and after temporarily cutting himself off from the grace and provision of God. All imposed with the loving intent to give the man a swift kick and wake him up.

The man in Corinth had been converted and regenerated via the Holy Spirit. He was now a member of the mystical Body of Christ. He chose not to yield to that Spirit; he chose to resist and defy it, and he got himself into a downward spiral of lust and degeneration that threatened to subvert his own soul. None of that makes any sense to materialists and people who are dead to spiritual reality -- to them, "if it feels good, do it ... what´s the big deal ..." And such sentiments regarding the misuse of sexual energy and purpose are not confined to Christians -- spiritual seekers of all stripes (buddhists, hindus, muslims, yogis, taoists,
etc.) -- all of them recognize the incredible power represented in the sexual energy -- and its proper control and channeling is part of every spiritual discipline, for very profound reasons.

From the Christian perspective, this man in Corinth had received the grace of God via Christ,and been joined in intimate spiritual union with Christ, but because of his attitude and refusal to consider his ways and their effects on himself AND the community of which he was part, he was "trampling underfoot" the grace and forgiveness he had received.

It is also noteworthy that this situation was described in the context of the Pasover feast which they observed to commemorate Christ´s sacrifice on the cross (I Cor. 5:6-8). It was an example of removing negative influence because "a little leaven (analogous to sin) leavens the whole loaf." The man was not worthy to participate in the ceremony because he apparently had lost all respect and regard for what Jesus did for him.

Again, Paul wasn´t condemning those OUTSIDE the church for their sexual immorality -- he knew that that´s just natural for them, and they were not within his field of jurisdiction or oversight:

"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people -- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you." (I Cor. 5:9-13).

That also deflates your argument about Paul being a stern, judgmental, harsh, overbearing pharisee, Rock. He was referring ONLY to one who had been redeemed from the flesh-pot of this world (from the Christian pov).

His chastisement did not involve self-righteous, holier-than-thou vindictiveness, but a genuine concern for the brother´s rapidly deteriorating spiritul condition. It would be like your brother descnding into hopeless addiction of some kind, Rock. In this case, it was obviously sexual addiction of a very negative type. Nothing wrong with sex in a spiritual and commited context, so don´t pull the old canard on me that I think sex is somehow debased or evil. Only those who have been on a spiritual path can appreciate what transpires when one returns to the life of physical sense and ego gratification. The door only swings one way, and once embarked on that path, there´s no looking back or turning around.

It was not Paul "unloading" on this guy in a tantrum of vehement, childish, retribution. It was actually the merciful God chastening a beloved son for his own good. And it was the result of the man´s own actions, attitude, and recalcitrance. I don´t deny that it could have resulted in his death after he was released back into the darkness of this present age in order to become a target of Satan the Adversary who "stalks like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." But from the scriptural perspective, it was God correcting the man via His Body, the church. Quoting (Hebrews 12:5-11):

"And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: ´My son, do not make light of the Lord´s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord DISCIPLINES THOSE HE LOVES,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a SON.´

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

The man in Corintians was forgiven just as much as the adulterous woman in the gospels was by Jesus. But the Corinthian man spit on this forgiveness and returned to his vomit, so to speak. Furthermore, he now had been granted the status of a SON -- the adulterous women had not yet become a child of God through the inner metamorphasis known as regeneration of the spirit. And as a wayward son who needed a swift kick, God chastened him through the church majority vote (2 Cor. 2:6) and through Paul. It was effective, and he returned to the spiritual path.


This is how God operates through human spiritual communities of believers, as brothers helping brothers regarding spiritual realities that many men (like you, Rock?) are blinded to. You´ve got it all twisted and turned around backwards, Rock, because you operate from the unfounded assumption that Paul was a hypocritical imposter and jewish infiltrator -- then you cherry-pick scriptures which seem to support your thesis upon cursory examination only, all the while ignorning vast swaths of history and scripture that indicate otherwise. Only illiterate people would fall for your arguments. Indeed, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. You have a subtle bitterness that you project onto others by promoting shallow concepts that were long ago refuted by objective historians and expositors.

You keep portraying Paul as some kind of cruel and judgmental martinet and pharisee. Indeed he had been in his previous unconverted life -- as a persecuter of the infant church -- but after his conversion, he, more than any other leader in the early church, came under great condemnation and persecution from pharisaical types in Jersusalem, for rejecting all of the efforts to remake Christianity as some kind of offshoot of the law-oriented judiasim of the Pharisees. How ironic that God used the once ultimate pharisee to lambast pharisaical religion!

Paul upheld Christ´s condemnation of the legalism of the Pharisees. Read the book of Galations, (which is very short), in a good modern translation, such as the NIV (New International Version) ... or read it in the antiquated language of the KJV, for that matter. The entire book is an attack on judaizing teachers who wanted to put these gentile Galations under the burden of Old Covenant legislation -- such as being circumcised (which was the initiatory rite into observing all of the Torah lesislation), keeping the Levitiical law, observing Old Covenant holy days, new moons, sabbaths, etc. Paul called such teachers accursed, false apostles, deceivers. He promoted a simple teaching of pure grace, the fruits of the Spirit being love which ultimately fulfills the Torah Law.


Rock, I just don´t know where you get your opinions of Paul. Try reading the books of Romans and Galations, and his other epistles, if you haven´t. Go to the source, instead of what ohers say about him. He upheld the true spiritual teachings of Jesus -- a teaching of faith, grace, and love. He taught that if you are connected to God you will bear the good fruit of love, joy, peace, gentleness, patience, temperence, and other spontaneous fruits of the Spirit. Indeed, Paul was the one who actually opposed all the pharisees and legalists that you seem to think he was one of.
Foolish Bison
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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344-
That´s a really thorough explanation of what´s going on here. I haven´t heard this type of bile against Paul much before. Is there some source of it that I´m unaware of?
ANTARES
12/08/2005 10:16 AM
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.

HE ALSO HAD VOLUMES TO SAY
ABOUT WOMEN AND HOW TO KEEP
THEM UNDER THE STICK

AND KILL THEM IF THEY
DONT DO AS THE MEN SAID..

"SUFFER NOT A WITCH TO LIVE..."

A WITCH WILL QUESTION MALE AUTHORITY
THAT KILLS WOMEN AND CHILDREN

KILL HER ! !

REAL CLASSIC WOMAN HATER

BET THE "PROMISE KEEPERS"

ARE BASED ON HIS TEACHINGS !

GOOD MAN OF GOD

TEACHES HATE FOR WOMEN .


.

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