I'm Losing My Religion ...

Yes I see what your saying; but to be clear I do not believe the bible teaches free will therefore there is no problem for me. Question why does your God make you suffer?

Another thing is this: if a person rapes and kills someone and gets of scott free without a scratch then how is that person miserable? Again if you say that deep down they are lying to themselves and others that is fine but it is only belief which I disagree with.

Explain?

Yes I see what your saying; but to be clear I do not believe the bible teaches free will therefore there is no problem for me. Question why does your God make you suffer?


Clearly, my analogy failed.

Would you not volunteer to give your loved ones life? I would, even in my human condition, much less in a spiritual condition.

It's not a "made," it's a willing choice. There were others willing, as well. But it's MY God, and it's MY family, and it's a creation that I love.

Why wouldn't I be willing to suffer for it? Or to experience what I believe to be real suffering?

You would not die for your family?


Another thing is this: if a person rapes and kills someone and gets of scott free without a scratch then how is that person miserable? Again if you say that deep down they are lying to themselves and others that is fine but it is only belief which I disagree with.


Basic psychology knows there is no such thing as "scott free" when a person commits a crime.

It's literally impossible for a human being to commit evil, and not fall into a self-destructive pattern.

Every psychologically trained person knows this fact about the human mind. It's not something that's flexible across various mental illnesses or anything else. It is universal for all people.

Until the person forgives themselves, they will continue to become more and more self-destructive. It's the way humans are hard-wired, and no one escapes it.

Before I was re-minded of the truth about our existence, I already knew about this mechanism.

There is no "what if he gets off scott free," because the human mind is wired so that it will self-destruct if it commits evil acts.

You just as well ask, "what if water all started flowing up Niagara Falls?" Realistically speaking, it's not going to happen.

Explain?


Sure,

This is how I see it. A LONG time ago the angels are all sitting around bitching about how the Elohim isn't doing it right. The morning star says he can do it better. A big civil war takes place.

when all is said and done, the Elohim being a wise teacher decides the only way to prevent this kind of thing from happening again is to let them try to "prove it". and passes off the reigns.

This planet is being ran by the "opposition". He and mankind are in complete control because this is the only way when the end comes we can all look up and say, "We did EVERYTHING we could think of to do this on our own ... we can't do it without YOU! PLEASE Take control of this shithole!"

There was an old quote I read about America once, I'll try to paraphrase, "Only when they've done every possible thing they can the wrong way, they will finally get it right."

Explain?


Sure,

This is how I see it. A LONG time ago the angels are all sitting around bitching about how the Elohim isn't doing it right. The morning star says he can do it better. A big civil war takes place.

when all is said and done, the Elohim being a wise teacher decides the only way to prevent this kind of thing from happening again is to let them try to "prove it". and passes off the reigns.

This planet is being ran by the "opposition". He and mankind are in complete control because this is the only way when the end comes we can all look up and say, "We did EVERYTHING we could think of to do this on our own ... we can't do it without YOU! PLEASE Take control of this shithole!"

There was an old quote I read about America once, I'll try to paraphrase, "Only when they've done every possible thing they can the wrong way, they will finally get it right."

I see. Do you accept the NT as inspired or just OT?

Yes but why must I die for them, why must I suffer for them? What kind of a God sets up a system like that? Seems kind of sick. Also I still not believe that it is a fact all people suffer from guilt. You cannot say that you KNOW that somebody had raped and killed someone and got away scott free then felt guilty. You would have to know the minds of every single human being, you would have to be God. Again you and some others may believe this but this does not make it true. People use to agree that the world was the centre of the universe and now people do not. Just because a group of people Believe it to be true does not make it so. If that is the criterion then Christianity is true because of being the largest belief system.

Explain?


Sure,

This is how I see it. A LONG time ago the angels are all sitting around bitching about how the Elohim isn't doing it right. The morning star says he can do it better. A big civil war takes place.

when all is said and done, the Elohim being a wise teacher decides the only way to prevent this kind of thing from happening again is to let them try to "prove it". and passes off the reigns.

This planet is being ran by the "opposition". He and mankind are in complete control because this is the only way when the end comes we can all look up and say, "We did EVERYTHING we could think of to do this on our own ... we can't do it without YOU! PLEASE Take control of this shithole!"

There was an old quote I read about America once, I'll try to paraphrase, "Only when they've done every possible thing they can the wrong way, they will finally get it right."

I see. Do you accept the NT as inspired or just OT?



I'm a Torah observant follower of Yahushua. I accept both. However, I'm educated enough to know it's been heavily manipulated and mistranslated. Hence, I use an interlinear bible + Srong's Exhaustive concordance. Additionally, I research ancient hebrew and jewish culture. This way, I'm able to attain context of many things that we, in the western world, can't understand dude to VAST cultural differences.

Yes but why must I die for them, why must I suffer for them? What kind of a God sets up a system like that? Seems kind of sick. Also I still not believe that it is a fact all people suffer from guilt. You cannot say that you KNOW that somebody had raped and killed someone and got away scott free then felt guilty. You would have to know the minds of every single human being, you would have to be God. Again you and some others may believe this but this does not make it true. People use to agree that the world was the centre of the universe and now people do not. Just because a group of people Believe it to be true does not make it so. If that is the criterion then Christianity is true because of being the largest belief system.


Okay, well, whatever. You're also not going to convince me that God is going to let everyone who's a christian get away with any foul deed they ever did in their life while he kills or burns everyone who chose not to swallow your religion. So trying to discuss further the idea of, "but what if there IS someone who gets away scott free?!"

I say no one does, because that's a universal Law.

Just as you say that God's going to pardon anyone who swallows the bible's lies, and destroy anyone who didn't. I'm not going to what-if you to death on that.

If you try to what-if me to death on your belief that murderers and rapists run around and enjoy life despite their misdeeds, I will just repeat to you that it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Empasse.

As far as why would God require that, I think I've made the point pretty clear that God doesn't require it. We choose it because we love creation, and we want to Complete the Paradox of God.

Yes but why must I die for them, why must I suffer for them? What kind of a God sets up a system like that? Seems kind of sick. Also I still not believe that it is a fact all people suffer from guilt. You cannot say that you KNOW that somebody had raped and killed someone and got away scott free then felt guilty. You would have to know the minds of every single human being, you would have to be God. Again you and some others may believe this but this does not make it true. People use to agree that the world was the centre of the universe and now people do not. Just because a group of people Believe it to be true does not make it so. If that is the criterion then Christianity is true because of being the largest belief system.


Okay, well, whatever. You're also not going to convince me that God is going to let everyone who's a christian get away with any foul deed they ever did in their life while he kills or burns everyone who chose not to swallow your religion. So trying to discuss further the idea of, "but what if there IS someone who gets away scott free?!"

I say no one does, because that's a universal Law.

Just as you say that God's going to pardon anyone who swallows the bible's lies, and destroy anyone who didn't. I'm not going to what-if you to death on that.

If you try to what-if me to death on your belief that murderers and rapists run around and enjoy life despite their misdeeds, I will just repeat to you that it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Empasse.

As far as why would God require that, I think I've made the point pretty clear that God doesn't require it. We choose it because we love creation, and we want to Complete the Paradox of God.

What? You get mad because I do not except your belief? What does loving creation have to do with choosing death and suffering? Please explain? I'm a seeker why leave me out to dry?

How then do you know what is true in the bible and what is not?

How do you know what was manipulated?

Please explain what you meant by manipulated?

Okay, well, whatever. You're also not going to convince me that God is going to let everyone who's a christian get away with any foul deed they ever did in their life while he kills or burns everyone who chose not to swallow your religion. So trying to discuss further the idea of, "but what if there IS someone who gets away scott free?!"

I say no one does, because that's a universal Law.

Just as you say that God's going to pardon anyone who swallows the bible's lies, and destroy anyone who didn't. I'm not going to what-if you to death on that.

If you try to what-if me to death on your belief that murderers and rapists run around and enjoy life despite their misdeeds, I will just repeat to you that it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Empasse.

As far as why would God require that, I think I've made the point pretty clear that God doesn't require it. We choose it because we love creation, and we want to Complete the Paradox of God.

What? You get mad because I do not except your belief? What does loving creation have to do with choosing death and suffering? Please explain? I'm a seeker why leave me out to dry?

Okay, well, whatever. You're also not going to convince me that God is going to let everyone who's a christian get away with any foul deed they ever did in their life while he kills or burns everyone who chose not to swallow your religion. So trying to discuss further the idea of, "but what if there IS someone who gets away scott free?!"

I say no one does, because that's a universal Law.

Just as you say that God's going to pardon anyone who swallows the bible's lies, and destroy anyone who didn't. I'm not going to what-if you to death on that.

If you try to what-if me to death on your belief that murderers and rapists run around and enjoy life despite their misdeeds, I will just repeat to you that it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Empasse.

As far as why would God require that, I think I've made the point pretty clear that God doesn't require it. We choose it because we love creation, and we want to Complete the Paradox of God.

What? You get mad because I do not except your belief? What does loving creation have to do with choosing death and suffering? Please explain? I'm a seeker why leave me out to dry?


How do you figure me saying that we're not going to see eye-to-eye on the possibility of "scott free-ness" in this life, is me being mad?

Maybe you should get some rest, lol.

As far as being a seeker, you are already convinced of your own beliefs. That's not a seeker.

"One cannot add anything to a cup that is already full." - Avatar

Okay, well, whatever. You're also not going to convince me that God is going to let everyone who's a christian get away with any foul deed they ever did in their life while he kills or burns everyone who chose not to swallow your religion. So trying to discuss further the idea of, "but what if there IS someone who gets away scott free?!"

I say no one does, because that's a universal Law.

Just as you say that God's going to pardon anyone who swallows the bible's lies, and destroy anyone who didn't. I'm not going to what-if you to death on that.

If you try to what-if me to death on your belief that murderers and rapists run around and enjoy life despite their misdeeds, I will just repeat to you that it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Empasse.

As far as why would God require that, I think I've made the point pretty clear that God doesn't require it. We choose it because we love creation, and we want to Complete the Paradox of God.

What? You get mad because I do not except your belief? What does loving creation have to do with choosing death and suffering? Please explain? I'm a seeker why leave me out to dry?


How do you figure me saying that we're not going to see eye-to-eye on the possibility of "scott free-ness" in this life, is me being mad?

Maybe you should get some rest, lol.

As far as being a seeker, you are already convinced of your own beliefs. That's not a seeker.

"One cannot add anything to a cup that is already full." - Avatar

I seek what you consider to be true. How can i agree with you if I do not know what you believe. Turtle did not a first. Why gove up on me? I'm just asking questions. What does loving creation have to do with someone choosing to suffer?
And sorry, I thought you were getting mad.

How then do you know what is true in the bible and what is not?


Because it's consistent. When it doesn't seem to be, it's either mistranslation, or my understanding is skewed.



How do you know what was manipulated?


This is why I use an interlinear bible and a strong's. This way, I know what I read is not being manipulated. When you rely on things like the "NIV" (Never Inspired Version) you're not getting the original context/words. You're getting someone's interpretation which will be biased by their own personal dogma/indoctrination/church guru's teachings.



Please explain what you meant by manipulated?


Just as a quick example because I don't really want to dig out a bunch of stuff and copy it over to list a complete essay: The words "GOD" and "LORD" are in all capital letters, why? Because the name of the Elohim was removed 6828 times by rabbinical decree. What's more, look around the KJV sometime, you'll notice a ton of words that are in italic. Those are added words.

The mere fact that people use the name of a druid sun god (Gesus) for the name of the Messiyah is solid proof of manipulation by the Hellenization of Greece, and don't even get me started on the council of Nicaea and the RCC.

And sorry, I thought you were getting mad.

I see, well I would like to have a calm discussion with you sometime; would that be alright? I would like to learn more about your beliefs and you about mine? I don't know a time but not tonight.

I see, well I would like to have a calm discussion with you sometime; would that be alright? I would like to learn more about your beliefs and you about mine? I don't know a time but not tonight.


That'd be lovely. Here is where you can take it: Thread: Messianics, Judaism, Christianity, Atheism and general open mindedness ...

This thread was started while I was an atheist and is pretty detailed about the belief system I've adopted. It currently is distilled down to mostly people with the same beliefs as my own.

I see, well I would like to have a calm discussion with you sometime; would that be alright? I would like to learn more about your beliefs and you about mine? I don't know a time but not tonight.


That'd be lovely. Here is where you can take it: Thread: Messianics, Judaism, Christianity, Atheism and general open mindedness ...

This thread was started while I was an atheist and is pretty detailed about the belief system I've adopted. It currently is distilled down to mostly people with the same beliefs as my own.

Sweet. Well I will do some reading of your beliefs then I will do some research and present my case. And something for you to ponder about. The whole franklin quote seems to me a contradiction. Are you aware that we presume reason exist, meaning we have faith it exist? Right? You would have to use reason to prove reason and well.... you see where this is going don't you? You may not like the argument but it is still logical, and therefore still stands.

Sandi, perhaps instead of "pardon" you could use "clemency". That might help dodge confusion.


Actually, it's the forgiveness part that's causing the hubbub.

People in our society tend to believe that "forgiveness" is synonymous ONLY with pardon or clemency.

A vast majority are utterly unaware of the definition of it in which you simply release the resentment (WITHOUT letting the thief back into your house to steal yet again).

Sounds to me op that you no longer want to be on the Lord's team because sin holds a greater attraction for you than your love for God.

Sounds to me op that you no longer want to be on the Lord's team because sin holds a greater attraction for you than your love for God.

Sandi, perhaps instead of "pardon" you could use "clemency". That might help dodge confusion.


Actually, it's the forgiveness part that's causing the hubbub.

People in our society tend to believe that "forgiveness" is synonymous ONLY with pardon or clemency.

A vast majority are utterly unaware of the definition of it in which you simply release the resentment (WITHOUT letting the thief back into your house to steal yet again).



Then, can't it be said that even though there were consequences for what happened in the Garden... That there was also forgiveness? That there's a way out? Just because they know not what they do (a theme delivered up throughout the entire book) does not mean that God did not clearly tell them what would happen if they did in fact go against what He said. They may not have realized right from wrong - but they were capable of making a choice
(free will) - and so they did. I don't think it is fair to say that consequences indicate a lack of love. And, I'm certain that is not at all what you meant to imply... No, to me it indicates just the opposite. Through boundaries/order we are able to see love. Not through chaos.

And, I thought I'd give this a whirl...

It seems that you, Sandi, and the AC are engaged in cyclical rhetoric.

What I hear when I read AC's post is that if you are the parent - and want to keep your child or spouse from harm - you will do whatever it takes to keep them from the wicked and terrible things that the attacker may have in store.

So too is God's love for us. He wants to separate the wicked from the righteous. And, we are not judges of men's hearts... So, we don't "get it" the way that only our Holy Elohim could... We don't know how He determines righteous from wicked - or an evil heart from a heart after God's heart. Only the Creator can do that. A perfect love is one that is difficult for any human to understand - but there is no confusion here. If He says it is so - then it is. And, you're right - but, His love is more than unconditional. It is just. It is fair. It is all things good. It is perfect. Something that we can't begin to understand except outside of shapes like circles and mathematical equations/theorums - and even that's debatable.

I also think that many people focus on the legalism and particulars in Bible text. If you cherry pick you can find scripture to support anything... It isn't until we compare scripture to scripture, use the ministry of Eli, and ask God to shed His light on any given topic that it can truly be understood and brought into context.

In fact - New Testament shows us this..

If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. James 1:26-27

WOW! This is the ONLY religion worth mentioning.

Religion is NOT church - you're right. Going to church can help you stay on track, keep you focused, and lend support from fellow brothers and sisters in Christ during times of need and even joy. IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO LEAD A PERSON TO SALVATION. Only an individual can do that. It is not designed so the teachers would stand and tell you how to get to heaven. It was to get your brain working, keep you motivated, and help you remain accountable. God says to question everything... He does not desire a mindless flock. In the days of old, prophets were much more highly regarded than a preacher/teacher. Look at what Jesus did to the church....

Love covers a multitude of sin. We see how easy it is for the hearts of men to forget this. This is what has sent Turtle on her personal journey... The people who might throw this book at her and do not live by it - are no better than the men at the well. We all have sin and/or wickedness in our hearts... We have all felt anger, wrath, criticism, condemnation, pride, strife, and probably even gossiped or spoken evilly in our lives.... None are without sin... So, none of us are fit to judge the hearts of men... That does not mean that we cannot recognize them by their fruits... But, certainly we can't say who actually desires deliverance... or repentance.

Jesus came to rescue us - and we killed Him... It isn't one or the other - it is both. He showed us the truest form of love... God didn't make Him die... He chose to die - and could have called out at any time during His tribulation for God to take Him out of this... Jesus said he had 12 legions of angels surrounding him that could have taken Him out of it at any time (Matthew 26:53).

He chose us.

While He screamed that God had forsaken Him - He also screamed to forgive us, for we (man) knew not what we had done.

Christianity: It is the ONLY faith by which God has lent a way for you to get to the Kingdom - that illustrates what God has done for us - out of mercy. And, is not instead about what we have to do to get to Him.

It is my firm belief that Salvation leads to good works - because the Spirit takes up residence - not for promises of treasures in Heaven or good jobs on this earth... But, because it is what is right. Good works do NOT lead to salvation - this is what I meant when I said Christianity is about what God has done for us... Not what we have to do to attain His mercy and grace. We already have it - and no matter what we have done or choose to do - we have it if we want it. Our hearts will be heard. If we truly don't want it - He knows our hearts desires. People who produce fruits and go through the motions in order to gain rewards are no different than those in the Old Testament. Furthermore, these supposed followers slap God in the face each time they engage in these acts - for they have not received the love that He demonstrated and have pretty much said that Jesus died in vain. It is the heart that decides now... And, that is REAL accountability. You cannot hide from Him... Or say that we do not have a way... Bible prophecy says that NO MAN OR WOMAN will be without excuse... Everyone will have been spoken to... I witnessed my own story without ever picking up a Bible (parents didn't own one and I hadn't ever read one until about 2.5 years ago). And, if your God can create the whole universe, you better believe He can knock on the hearts and minds of old, young; poor, rich; near, far; black, white; in bondage, or the one holding another in bondage... He CAN.

As Christians it is our job to be living examples of Christ's love... That this might be how the world knows us.... We should be forgiving, but not foolish... Just as Jesus was.

Discernment in conjunction with love, is the key to so much madness.... And, God sent the Comforter so that we might have access to that spirit of discernment.

Dare I say this...
The biggest tragedy in the Old Testament was that people did not believe on the Creator - The Father in Heaven...

The biggest tragedy in the New Testament is that people did not believe that Jesus was who He said He was...

And, today - the biggest tragedy in my very honest opinion is that we do not call on or have faith in the Comfortor - who was sent back to reside within you and guide you through. True discernment is had when you compare what you're hearing (morally) with scripture, others who are in Christ and that you trust (ministry of Eli)... and when you compare it to what God is telling you to do. We often think that He doesn't talk to us... But, it just isn't so. He talks to us everyday - once He takes up residence He never leaves. He whispers in your heart... He dwells within your spirit, soul, and consciousness. And, all you have is but to ask - listen for it - and then OBEY. Because "morals" do not come from religion... Nor do they come from a book alone... But, to walk with Christ every single day? No church - no man - no book can do what this does for the soul that calls on it.