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If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat

 
Sc0rp10n

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10/09/2011 03:06 PM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Found this great article from the Daily Mail earlier this year that I thought I would post here for those who think fruit and vegetables are really required and are in some way beneficial:

This cynical five-a-day myth: Nutrition expert claims we've all been duped
[link to www.dailymail.co.uk]

This bit alone gets to the gist of the argument:

"People are convinced that fruit and vegetables are a particularly good source of vitamins and minerals.
Andrew Lansley: Said that only three in ten adults eat the recommended five-a-day

For a long time, I too was a believer. I was a vegetarian for 20 years. It is only after nearly two decades of my own research — I am a Cambridge graduate and currently studying for a PhD in nutrition —that I have changed my views.

The message that fruit and veg are pretty useless, nutritionally, gradually dawned on me.

The facts are these. There are 13 vitamins and fruit is good for one of them, vitamin C.

Vegetables offer some vitamins — vitamin C and the vegetable form of the fat-soluble vitamins A and vitamin K1 — but your body will be able to absorb these only if you add some fat, such as butter or olive oil. (great when they tell you to eat low fat!!)

The useful forms of A and K — ­retinol and K2 respectively — are found only in animal foods. As for minerals, there are 16 and fruit is good for one of them, potassium, which is not a substance we are often short of, as it is found in water.

Vegetables can be OK for iron and calcium but the vitamins and minerals in animal foods (meat, fish, eggs and dairy products) beat those in fruit and vegetables hands down. There is far more vitamin A in liver than in an apple, for instance."


The fact is you can get all the vitamins and minerals you need from just meat, fish, eggs, dairy produce and a small amount of nuts like almonds, macadamias, pecans and brazils.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 2967348
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10/09/2011 03:30 PM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
An interesting list of some of the natural toxins found in fruit and vegetables. These are the plants first line of defence against predators. We can fight or run. Plants don't have that option so they resort to poisons!

[link to extoxnet.orst.edu]

It's a short list, there are thousands more!
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 2967348
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10/10/2011 04:11 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
An interesting description of the factors within the ketogenic diet that may extend lifespan, primarily in that it downgrades oxidation and upregulates the production of the body's own anti-oxidants (yep, no need for external plant based ones that were never designed to benefit us).

a ketogenic diet is good for you....
[link to conditioningresearch.blogspot.com]

In a nutshell:

Taken together, the results demonstrate that the KD upregulates GSH biosynthesis, enhances mitochondrial antioxidant status, and protects mtDNA from oxidant-induced damage.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 2967348
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10/10/2011 04:18 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Another very interesting article from Psychology Today looking at how the brain functions in ketosis. Funny how this research never gets headline news :)

Your Brain On Ketones
How a high-fat diet can help the brain work better

[link to www.psychologytoday.com]

The last line of the article sums it up perfectly:

For the brain, it means a lower seizure risk and a better environment for neuronal recovery and repair.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1308689
United States
10/11/2011 07:05 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
I found a new yummy dish this week, cauliflower and cheese, prepared and baked just like good old fashioned macaroni and cheese minus the pasta. This, and creamed brussell sprouts, might be my favorite fall comfort foods. It has been a year and I am 6 pounds below my goal weight and still loosing about two pounds a month though I am no longer counting or trying to loose weight. I weigh less than I did in college and because of the new muscles I have gained, I am also wearing two sizes smaller than what I wore in my college days. I get no formal exercise other than a fairly strenuous job.

I must admit that hardly a day goes by that someone doesn't comment on my tiny figure. Heck, I look in the mirror myself and can hardly believe what I see. When I started this optimal diet last October, I just wanted to look better for my daughter's July wedding. I never imagined I could end up with 35 inch hips and 25 inch waist. But it has happened and that is even after having had 3 babies and now many years later being two years into menopause.

I do cheat here and there at social events or when I get a whim, but I suffer for it and cannot wait to get back into ketosis and end the misery of stomach and joint pains, fatigue, and lousy moods. Maybe I was allergic to wheat and corn my whole life. Maybe my body burns food differently now. I don't know exactly the science behind what I feel. I just know something miraculous happened and turned the clock back decades. I wish I could wave a wand over everyone in senseless poor health and show them how good they could feel after just a month or two of this optimal way of eating.

Some of my friends are playing at the low carb thing now after watching me all year, but they are not seriously following the optimal diet ratios, and so they are not having the same results. I know they are suspecting that I am just not eating in order to achieve these results. But I eat more than ever and feel so satisfied and free. I doubt many people really can remember what it feels like to not be a slave to food cravings.

This morning I thought about the fact I don't really crave anything anymore, not food, drink, shopping, web surfing, or anything I used to love in excess. I think I have gained control of my life in so many unexpected ways thanks to the original effort it took to change my eating drastically. I write these things not to brag or to say look what I did, but because I am just so absolutely amazed at what a high fat diet can and will do. Every day I am bombarded by low fat messages and high fat warnings from everywhere I turn. I want to scream back from the rooftop that those are all lies! I am just an ordinary person who believed all that nonsense for many miserable heavy years. Everyone should have a chance to know the truth and to feel good again.

What I now find is that I cannot go back to the old way of eating. It is just too painful. If someone took away my lamb chops, cream, bacon and eggs and forced me to eat grains again I think I would rather just be shot on the spot. I feel certain now that God would have given us ruminating stomachs, like cows, if he had meant for us to eat five servings of grains a day. And I suspect there is a reason God enjoyed the fat offerings and picked a land flowing with milk and honey for those who followed him.

So thanks again for the inspiration you all continue to give with the great articles and stories. For me it continues to be life changing information!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3142122
Germany
10/12/2011 10:47 AM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hey sc0rpi0n,

Q: why is fructose so bad ? afaik it doesnt trigger insulin to your blood.

would like you to elaborate

thx
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 3033184
United Kingdom
10/12/2011 11:47 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hey sc0rpi0n,

Q: why is fructose so bad ? afaik it doesnt trigger insulin to your blood.

would like you to elaborate

thx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3142122


It's a long story, but this is the simplest explanation:

1) It doesn't trigger blood sugars because it is not absorbed into the blood stream since it cannot be used for energy.

2) The metabolic pathway for using fructose is very different. As I said in 1 it cannot be used for energy like glucose. It is shuffled off to the liver and there are only 2 things that the liver can do with it - store it as glycogen or store it as fat, but it has to be stored. It causes a lot of work for the liver, just like alcohol - in fact the similarities are incredible. Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease is caused by fructose in the same way that alcoholic fatty liver disease is caused by alcohol. Since your glycogen stores are nearly always full (from eating starch and glucose) most of the fructose becomes fat. Worst of all it forms abdominal fat - the worst kind! That's why you see so many 'muffin tops' these days on young girls who are usually thin (except on their belly). This is due to the proliferation of alcopops type drinks. They were better off with beer :)

3) Because of 2) the levels of triglycerides are HIGHLY elevated after fructose meals. Elevated triglycerides are the No 1 risk factor for heart disease and stroke.

4) Fructose consumption (even in relatively small amounts like found say in an apple) will decrease your immune system by 70% for up to 5 hours. So someone who regularly consumes fruit during the day could be crippling their immune system for most of their waking day. Glucose will reduce it by only about 50%, starches by 12%. Saturated fats actually raise it! Low immune system operation is implicated in many things including frequent colds/susceptibility to infection and cancer.

5) Glucose is the fuel for cancer cells. Lots of research has shown that fructose is what they need to move around the body and proliferate. It is GO juice for cancer cells.

There's lots more but that's it in a nutshell.

It is sold to diabetics on the premise that it shan't raise their blood sugar. But it's destroying them in every other way. Combined with eating glucose and starches it speeds up the damage being done by the diabetes.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 3033184
United Kingdom
10/12/2011 11:52 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
I found a new yummy dish this week, cauliflower and cheese, prepared and baked just like good old fashioned macaroni and cheese minus the pasta. This, and creamed brussell sprouts, might be my favorite fall comfort foods. It has been a year and I am 6 pounds below my goal weight and still loosing about two pounds a month though I am no longer counting or trying to loose weight. I weigh less than I did in college and because of the new muscles I have gained, I am also wearing two sizes smaller than what I wore in my college days. I get no formal exercise other than a fairly strenuous job.

I must admit that hardly a day goes by that someone doesn't comment on my tiny figure. Heck, I look in the mirror myself and can hardly believe what I see. When I started this optimal diet last October, I just wanted to look better for my daughter's July wedding. I never imagined I could end up with 35 inch hips and 25 inch waist. But it has happened and that is even after having had 3 babies and now many years later being two years into menopause.

I do cheat here and there at social events or when I get a whim, but I suffer for it and cannot wait to get back into ketosis and end the misery of stomach and joint pains, fatigue, and lousy moods. Maybe I was allergic to wheat and corn my whole life. Maybe my body burns food differently now. I don't know exactly the science behind what I feel. I just know something miraculous happened and turned the clock back decades. I wish I could wave a wand over everyone in senseless poor health and show them how good they could feel after just a month or two of this optimal way of eating.

Some of my friends are playing at the low carb thing now after watching me all year, but they are not seriously following the optimal diet ratios, and so they are not having the same results. I know they are suspecting that I am just not eating in order to achieve these results. But I eat more than ever and feel so satisfied and free. I doubt many people really can remember what it feels like to not be a slave to food cravings.

This morning I thought about the fact I don't really crave anything anymore, not food, drink, shopping, web surfing, or anything I used to love in excess. I think I have gained control of my life in so many unexpected ways thanks to the original effort it took to change my eating drastically. I write these things not to brag or to say look what I did, but because I am just so absolutely amazed at what a high fat diet can and will do. Every day I am bombarded by low fat messages and high fat warnings from everywhere I turn. I want to scream back from the rooftop that those are all lies! I am just an ordinary person who believed all that nonsense for many miserable heavy years. Everyone should have a chance to know the truth and to feel good again.

What I now find is that I cannot go back to the old way of eating. It is just too painful. If someone took away my lamb chops, cream, bacon and eggs and forced me to eat grains again I think I would rather just be shot on the spot. I feel certain now that God would have given us ruminating stomachs, like cows, if he had meant for us to eat five servings of grains a day. And I suspect there is a reason God enjoyed the fat offerings and picked a land flowing with milk and honey for those who followed him.

So thanks again for the inspiration you all continue to give with the great articles and stories. For me it continues to be life changing information!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1308689


Well done! Hopefully that story will inspire many others to give this a try.

You don't have to be fat and you don't have to be unhealthy.

All you have to do is stop listening to all those health experts who profit from your lack of health - do the opposite and as this poster said eat the way that God intended us to and the way we did for generations!

Enjoy the fat of the land - and as a bonus be thin, but much more importantly regain your health!
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3142122
Germany
10/12/2011 01:05 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hey sc0rpi0n,

Q: why is fructose so bad ? afaik it doesnt trigger insulin to your blood.

would like you to elaborate

thx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3142122


It's a long story, but this is the simplest explanation:

1) It doesn't trigger blood sugars because it is not absorbed into the blood stream since it cannot be used for energy.

2) The metabolic pathway for using fructose is very different. As I said in 1 it cannot be used for energy like glucose. It is shuffled off to the liver and there are only 2 things that the liver can do with it - store it as glycogen or store it as fat, but it has to be stored. It causes a lot of work for the liver, just like alcohol - in fact the similarities are incredible. Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease is caused by fructose in the same way that alcoholic fatty liver disease is caused by alcohol. Since your glycogen stores are nearly always full (from eating starch and glucose) most of the fructose becomes fat. Worst of all it forms abdominal fat - the worst kind! That's why you see so many 'muffin tops' these days on young girls who are usually thin (except on their belly). This is due to the proliferation of alcopops type drinks. They were better off with beer :)

3) Because of 2) the levels of triglycerides are HIGHLY elevated after fructose meals. Elevated triglycerides are the No 1 risk factor for heart disease and stroke.

4) Fructose consumption (even in relatively small amounts like found say in an apple) will decrease your immune system by 70% for up to 5 hours. So someone who regularly consumes fruit during the day could be crippling their immune system for most of their waking day. Glucose will reduce it by only about 50%, starches by 12%. Saturated fats actually raise it! Low immune system operation is implicated in many things including frequent colds/susceptibility to infection and cancer.

5) Glucose is the fuel for cancer cells. Lots of research has shown that fructose is what they need to move around the body and proliferate. It is GO juice for cancer cells.

There's lots more but that's it in a nutshell.

It is sold to diabetics on the premise that it shan't raise their blood sugar. But it's destroying them in every other way. Combined with eating glucose and starches it speeds up the damage being done by the diabetes.
 Quoting: Sc0rp10n



wow, that was quick, thx my friend.

i knew beer is better ;)

btw im doing low carb almost 6 month now - perfect shape, feelin good, even skipped my yearly flu

yo da man !
emerald eye
Keeping an "eye out" for the truth.

User ID: 1554083
United States
10/13/2011 03:19 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
An interesting description of the factors within the ketogenic diet that may extend lifespan, primarily in that it downgrades oxidation and upregulates the production of the body's own anti-oxidants (yep, no need for external plant based ones that were never designed to benefit us).

a ketogenic diet is good for you....
[link to conditioningresearch.blogspot.com]

In a nutshell:

Taken together, the results demonstrate that the KD upregulates GSH biosynthesis, enhances mitochondrial antioxidant status, and protects mtDNA from oxidant-induced damage.
 Quoting: Sc0rp10n


Interesting link.

I recently came across something similar with mild dietary ketosis being beneficial in maintaining glutathione levels. This was in reference to the detoxification of mercury, but I will also link it here. The whole video series is pretty interesting if you have time.


[link to www.youtube.com]


My thread on this is here if anyone is interested:

Thread: Reversing Alzheimer's disease, mercury toxicity, and mercury containing vaccination.


Keep up the good work on this thread.smile_kiss

Last Edited by emerald eye on 10/13/2011 03:26 AM
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while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


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Generation Doom

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10/13/2011 06:47 PM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
This guy is pretty lucky, huh? Every time I try eating candy now I put on a few pounds..


Thread: I've Lived 40 Years Of My Life Eating Almost Nothing But Sweets
Gregor Samsa

User ID: 3204418
Turkey
10/13/2011 06:54 PM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
This guy is pretty lucky, huh? Every time I try eating candy now I put on a few pounds..


Thread: I've Lived 40 Years Of My Life Eating Almost Nothing But Sweets
 Quoting: Generation Doom


either he is trolling or has a metabolism anomaly
To know means to know all. Not to know all means not to know. In order to know all, it is only necessary to know a little. But, in order to know this little, it is first necessary to know pretty much.
G.I. Gurdjieff
OneEyedWoman

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10/13/2011 07:03 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
I'm really bad and disgusting at math.
How much would a 110lb girl need?
NOT trying to loose weight, I just want to eat heailtier.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2046149


55-70g of protein
150-245g of fat
20g of carbs

I think that works out at between 1650 and 2565 calories

Depends on how active you are - if you do a lot of aerobic exercise you need more protein and fat so go for the higher end (and up to 80g on protein) on exercise days. If you do mainly resistance type exercise then you need a lot more protein - more like about 90 grams (depending on whether you want just well toned muscle or a bit more muscle mass)

If you start to lose weight then bump up the protein first to the higher end and maybe a bit above. If still losing then bump up the fat a bit too.
 Quoting: Sc0rp10n


ty hf
Just around and I'll be there, I'm moving into your atmosphere.

Romans 8:39 Any other living thing cannot keep us away from the love of God which is ours through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ""Abba," Father."

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. –Romans 14:1

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1519250
Philippines
10/14/2011 01:10 AM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Just want to say Thank you again! Lost 28 pounds already since I started this, 3 - 2 months ago!

Really good thread!
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 3033184
United Kingdom
10/14/2011 04:28 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Just want to say Thank you again! Lost 28 pounds already since I started this, 3 - 2 months ago!

Really good thread!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1519250


Fantastic! Well done.

You know, it's funny, we are in the process of moving house and I was going through old photographs and I had almost forgotten how my weight has yo-yo'd over the years.

I pretty much varied between 168 pounds and 238 pounds over the last 25 years or so. And it shows from year to year. In most of the pictures I look hugely overweight, but every now and then a picture appears in the chronology when I was not too bad. However, these never lasted long!! lol

What amazes me most is actually how I have managed to stay below 170 lbs for over 3 years now! This is pretty unbelievable when I look at how I have been over the years. This is the greatest gain of all - a plan that not just gets the weight off, but one that can keep it off.

Oh and it was nice seeing a picture of me at 21 and realising that I am now thinner than I was then :) That was cool!
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

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10/14/2011 04:34 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Just came across this. Not really about diet but another great indication of how Big Pharma is actually about making and keeping us sick.

State of health of unvaccinated children
[link to www.vaccineinjury.info]

I was pretty much the vaccine generation, where we were brought up to believe in the panacea of vaccination! But then we also had the panacea of the so-called "healthy diet" so I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised.

But I was totally shocked by these numbers, showing that vaccinated kids are many many more times likely to get illneses and diseases, to suffer from allergies and also conditions such as asthama!

These people selling us all this shit supposedly for our benefit are SICK SICK SICK! And our Governments are CRIMINALS for playing along with them!
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 3033184
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10/16/2011 08:33 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
I was just browing around another low carb forum and was fascinated by one of the posts there about how LDL cholesterol is calculated and not actually measured.

It brought to mind some comments about Ubetido about the bloodworks that he had done which showed a rise in his cholesterol. Well, according to the calculated method it always will when triglycderids drop. Here is the explanation from there:

"People don't understand that LDL is not routinely measured but rather is calculated using the Friedewald equation: LDL = total cholesterol - HDL - Triglycerides divided by 5 (which is actually the calculated VLDL.)

From this you can see that as triglycerides drop, LDL AUTOMATICALLY goes up! Doing Atkins quite frequently raises LDL, but it's only because Atkins consistently LOWERS triglycerides. At the same time, the LDL that are present are most likely Pattern A LDL, the "good" LDL which are larger, fluffy, buoyant, and the kind less likely to oxidize and cause problems.

For example:

Total Cholesterol 320
HDL 60
Triglycerides 500 divided by 5 = 100
Calculated LDL 160


Total Cholesterol 320
HDL 60
Triglycerides 150 divided by 5 = 30
Calculated LDL 230


Total Cholesterol 320
HDL 60
Triglycerides 50 divided by 5 =10
Calculated LDL 250

Ss you can see, merely lowering or raising triglycerides will lower or raise LDL, whether LDL actually changed or not. If you have copies of previous cholesterol tests, and the results include triglycerides and HDL, do your own calculations.

When triglycerides go up, so does the VLDL. High triglycerides also means high VLDL; low triglycerides means low VLDL. VLDL (very low density lipoprotein) is a dangerous lipoprotein, so it's a good idea to lower triglycerides...if one believes that cholesterol causes heart disease.

There are good LDL and bad LDL particles. Pattern A is considered the good LDL. Pattern B is considered the bad LDL. Therefore, ratios that have anything to do with LDL are meaningless. The ratio would only be relevant if there is no such thing as good LDL, and if the LDL was the only lipoprotein reflected in an LDL result.

Also, because the LDL is calculated, everything that isn't HDL and VLDL gets lumped under LDL, whether it's LDL or not. There are other lipoproteins that aren't measured and these are lumped under the LDL. Therefore, the calculated LDL number is misleading, and doesn't really mean much.


So, just what exactly does it mean LDL "went up?" It means absolutely nothing! The only way to know your true risk from LDL is to have the LDL particles measured and quantified. You have to ask specifically for the LDL to be measured. If you've been adequately controlling generated blood sugar and eating enough saturated fat, your LDL particle will most likely be LDL Pattern A."


So that would totally explain why high triglyderides correlate with heart disease whilst simple LDL measurements do not.

And it also means that the bigger the fall in triglycerides, the bigger the rise in LDL will appear to be!

Very fascinating and fills in a big piece of the jigsaw.

Here's the link

[link to forum.lowcarber.org]
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

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10/16/2011 08:34 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
I'm really bad and disgusting at math.
How much would a 110lb girl need?
NOT trying to loose weight, I just want to eat heailtier.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2046149


55-70g of protein
150-245g of fat
20g of carbs

I think that works out at between 1650 and 2565 calories

Depends on how active you are - if you do a lot of aerobic exercise you need more protein and fat so go for the higher end (and up to 80g on protein) on exercise days. If you do mainly resistance type exercise then you need a lot more protein - more like about 90 grams (depending on whether you want just well toned muscle or a bit more muscle mass)

If you start to lose weight then bump up the protein first to the higher end and maybe a bit above. If still losing then bump up the fat a bit too.
 Quoting: Sc0rp10n


ty hf
 Quoting: OneEyedWoman


Your welcome. Let us know how you get on.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
queentut

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Australia
10/18/2011 12:16 AM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Love this topic .... and am just wondering if ricebran oil is a healthy/safe oil to use for cooking?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3758697
United States
10/22/2011 06:16 AM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hi scorpion, it took 4 days of fasting, but I finally entered ketosis.

according to the ketosis stick, I am in MODERATE state, which is 3 of 5. there are two higher states, ironically labelled HIGH. numbered 40 in the us...HIGH is 80 and 160 respectively.

should one strive to get to the highest states and stay there? day 5 and the hunger pangs have subsided so continuing the fast isn't that big of a deal.

thanks
Sc0rp10n

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United Kingdom
10/22/2011 09:01 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hi scorpion, it took 4 days of fasting, but I finally entered ketosis.

according to the ketosis stick, I am in MODERATE state, which is 3 of 5. there are two higher states, ironically labelled HIGH. numbered 40 in the us...HIGH is 80 and 160 respectively.

should one strive to get to the highest states and stay there? day 5 and the hunger pangs have subsided so continuing the fast isn't that big of a deal.

thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3758697


Hi,

No, I don't think it matters whether you are in the higher or lower states. It will actually vary over time anyway. The mere presence of a good level of ketones indicates that insulin secretions are very low, so you are now using fat for energy and that means both body fat and dietary fat.

I presume by fast you mean that you have been doing the fat fast. It's not a good thing to go beyond 5-6 days with the fat fast, or any fast, since all that happens is the body then goes into starvation mode and downgrades your metabolism, so if the aim is to lose weight then eating too few calories can stop weight loss just as effectively as eating too many.

When I come off a fat fast I usually do it quite slowly over 2-3 days - adding calories in increments of 400 or so and getting the protein intake back to where it needs to be for healthy body maintenance i.e about 1g for every kg of body weight at your ideal weight.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Sc0rp10n

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10/22/2011 09:05 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Love this topic .... and am just wondering if ricebran oil is a healthy/safe oil to use for cooking?
 Quoting: queentut


Hi,

Here is a link to a wikipedia piece on ricebran oil:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

It is a mainly monounsaturated oil (with 47%), but it still does have a high polyunsaturated content at 33%. I wouldn't personally want to use too much of anything that is that high in poly.

It does look like it has a high smoke point, but that is not the only factor in suitability for cooking. Saturated fats tend to be damaged much less by cooking than all unsaturated fats and I would be much more comfortable with either palm oil or coconut oil if you want to use a vegetable oil for cooking.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
emerald eye
Keeping an "eye out" for the truth.

User ID: 1554083
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10/22/2011 11:41 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hi scorpion, it took 4 days of fasting, but I finally entered ketosis.

according to the ketosis stick, I am in MODERATE state, which is 3 of 5. there are two higher states, ironically labelled HIGH. numbered 40 in the us...HIGH is 80 and 160 respectively.

should one strive to get to the highest states and stay there? day 5 and the hunger pangs have subsided so continuing the fast isn't that big of a deal.

thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3758697


Hi Guys,

The level of ketosis best for the human metabolism is covered in this video.



[link to www.youtube.com]

(I can't seem to get the video to embed, but it is in my post earlier on the page)



(#5 out of #9 starting at around 1:17 for those who like to cut to the chase)

Discussion paraphrased:

This discusses (beta)hydroxybutyrate ( 75-80%) versus ketobutyrate (20%). Ideally one should not produce acetone. However in those who are unhealthy (those who are impaired by not using this pathway for decades,) the risk of acetone generation is increased.

Acetone it is not a fuel, and must be remmoved by the lungs producing acetone breath. Acetone can also participate in unhealthy cross-linking reactions, and therefore its production should be minimized. (In avoiding acetone breath, you can ask a friend or loved one if your breath smells like acetone)

The non-prescription urine test strips do not detect hydroxybutyrate (the more preferred form by the body) but they do detect ketobutyrate. They also react with acetone providing a false elevation of the level. Therefore you should stay away from the strongest readings on he OTC urine test strips especially if you have “acetone breath”.

[link to www.mayomedicallaboratories.com]



When I first started limiting the unhealthy carbs in my diet, I would get those very strong ketone readings. Later as my body became more efficient at burning fats, my test strips would only show a light color. I was frustrated because I did not realize that that actually showed a good thing, namely that my body was becoming more efficient at burning fat and my metabolism was actually getting healthier.

I therefore test less often, with greater confidence that by body is doing what it needs to do, and when I do test, I am happy with a very mild reading, I no longer shoot for the very dark reading.

One other important note:

If you are diabetic, and you are getting moderate or greater readings on ketones, always check your blood sugar as well. If both blood sugar (blood glucose level greater than 250 mg/dL) and ketones are high you need to seek medical help right away, as this could indicate diabetic ketoacidosis or DKA, which is a dangerous medical condition and not the same as a mild dietary ketosis, which is in fact a part of a healthy metabolism.

[link to emedicine.medscape.com]



Have a lovely Saturday, everyonechorus

Last Edited by emerald eye on 10/22/2011 11:44 AM
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while fear is the obstruction of all dreams.


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User ID: 3792024
United Kingdom
10/22/2011 04:03 PM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hi scorpion, it took 4 days of fasting, but I finally entered ketosis.

according to the ketosis stick, I am in MODERATE state, which is 3 of 5. there are two higher states, ironically labelled HIGH. numbered 40 in the us...HIGH is 80 and 160 respectively.

should one strive to get to the highest states and stay there? day 5 and the hunger pangs have subsided so continuing the fast isn't that big of a deal.

thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3758697


Hi Guys,

The level of ketosis best for the human metabolism is covered in this video.



[link to www.youtube.com]

(I can't seem to get the video to embed, but it is in my post earlier on the page)



(#5 out of #9 starting at around 1:17 for those who like to cut to the chase)

Discussion paraphrased:

This discusses (beta)hydroxybutyrate ( 75-80%) versus ketobutyrate (20%). Ideally one should not produce acetone. However in those who are unhealthy (those who are impaired by not using this pathway for decades,) the risk of acetone generation is increased.

Acetone it is not a fuel, and must be remmoved by the lungs producing acetone breath. Acetone can also participate in unhealthy cross-linking reactions, and therefore its production should be minimized. (In avoiding acetone breath, you can ask a friend or loved one if your breath smells like acetone)

The non-prescription urine test strips do not detect hydroxybutyrate (the more preferred form by the body) but they do detect ketobutyrate. They also react with acetone providing a false elevation of the level. Therefore you should stay away from the strongest readings on he OTC urine test strips especially if you have “acetone breath”.

[link to www.mayomedicallaboratories.com]



When I first started limiting the unhealthy carbs in my diet, I would get those very strong ketone readings. Later as my body became more efficient at burning fats, my test strips would only show a light color. I was frustrated because I did not realize that that actually showed a good thing, namely that my body was becoming more efficient at burning fat and my metabolism was actually getting healthier.

I therefore test less often, with greater confidence that by body is doing what it needs to do, and when I do test, I am happy with a very mild reading, I no longer shoot for the very dark reading.

One other important note:

If you are diabetic, and you are getting moderate or greater readings on ketones, always check your blood sugar as well. If both blood sugar (blood glucose level greater than 250 mg/dL) and ketones are high you need to seek medical help right away, as this could indicate diabetic ketoacidosis or DKA, which is a dangerous medical condition and not the same as a mild dietary ketosis, which is in fact a part of a healthy metabolism.

[link to emedicine.medscape.com]



Have a lovely Saturday, everyonechorus
 Quoting: emerald eye


Thats a very interesting find there Emerald Eye. I have found the same observation as you that I now only get moderate ketosis showing on the ketostix, irrespective of what I am eating. Pleased to find out that this is actually a good thing :)
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
ubetido

User ID: 1638832
10/22/2011 08:10 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Hi

If anyone could offer an explanation i would appreciate it.

This is how i am eating at the moment:
beef/lamb
eggs
cheese
macadamias/almonds
Butter
salsa

Ist meal:
3 eggs and some cheese

2nd meal
around 50g cream cheese and about 20 macadamias and almonds combined

3rd meal
beef about 125g
some brussels or cauli.
some cheese

At times the brussels give me really painful cramps is this because i am not used to them?

whilst i don't crave sweet things, if there around i tend to pick up and eat.

Also at times drink things like muscat and port

I have coffee with no sugar only milk but at times i have to put a couple of teaspoons of sugar in especially my first coffee of the day.


The problem i am having, is i tend to eat sweets (lollies or biscuits if there around (Mainly at work.

What is happening to me when i do this if i am in ketosis does it upset things, confuse the body of its energy source?

I am trying to work out why i have these tendencies, why with what i eat i am not getting saitiated.

Last check was not diabetic.

Eating as i have described could a lack of sugar as in glucose from carbs be the cause. I have vlc in my diet.

I have not lost any weight at all and haven't lost any body fat....grrrrrrr
Just can't seem to find the trigger.

Cheers
Ubetido

Last Edited by ubetido on 10/23/2011 04:10 AM
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3758697
United States
10/22/2011 08:52 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
hi scorpion, it took 4 days of fasting, but I finally entered ketosis.

according to the ketosis stick, I am in MODERATE state, which is 3 of 5. there are two higher states, ironically labelled HIGH. numbered 40 in the us...HIGH is 80 and 160 respectively.

should one strive to get to the highest states and stay there? day 5 and the hunger pangs have subsided so continuing the fast isn't that big of a deal.

thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3758697


Hi Guys,

The level of ketosis best for the human metabolism is covered in this video.



[link to www.youtube.com]

(I can't seem to get the video to embed, but it is in my post earlier on the page)



(#5 out of #9 starting at around 1:17 for those who like to cut to the chase)

Discussion paraphrased:

This discusses (beta)hydroxybutyrate ( 75-80%) versus ketobutyrate (20%). Ideally one should not produce acetone. However in those who are unhealthy (those who are impaired by not using this pathway for decades,) the risk of acetone generation is increased.

Acetone it is not a fuel, and must be remmoved by the lungs producing acetone breath. Acetone can also participate in unhealthy cross-linking reactions, and therefore its production should be minimized. (In avoiding acetone breath, you can ask a friend or loved one if your breath smells like acetone)

The non-prescription urine test strips do not detect hydroxybutyrate (the more preferred form by the body) but they do detect ketobutyrate. They also react with acetone providing a false elevation of the level. Therefore you should stay away from the strongest readings on he OTC urine test strips especially if you have “acetone breath”.

[link to www.mayomedicallaboratories.com]



When I first started limiting the unhealthy carbs in my diet, I would get those very strong ketone readings. Later as my body became more efficient at burning fats, my test strips would only show a light color. I was frustrated because I did not realize that that actually showed a good thing, namely that my body was becoming more efficient at burning fat and my metabolism was actually getting healthier.

I therefore test less often, with greater confidence that by body is doing what it needs to do, and when I do test, I am happy with a very mild reading, I no longer shoot for the very dark reading.

One other important note:

If you are diabetic, and you are getting moderate or greater readings on ketones, always check your blood sugar as well. If both blood sugar (blood glucose level greater than 250 mg/dL) and ketones are high you need to seek medical help right away, as this could indicate diabetic ketoacidosis or DKA, which is a dangerous medical condition and not the same as a mild dietary ketosis, which is in fact a part of a healthy metabolism.

[link to emedicine.medscape.com]



Have a lovely Saturday, everyonechorus
 Quoting: emerald eye


appreciate the excellent info EE...I will check it out.

looks like the low carb plan works well for you

Scorpion...when I referred to the fast, it was a total fast for 5 days. I generally do one a few times a year just to give the digestive system some downtime.

I was fortunate to come across your thread and just starting to embrace the low carb lifestyle. Haven't read the entire thread yet, but is there any reason I can't entirely eliminate the carbs? I do fine on protein and oil.

for me, eating small amounts keeps the desire alive and is like "dancing with the devil"
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2011 09:01 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
one other question scorpion...

does it matter if the daily protein comes in a lump amount. or does it have to be broken down into increments.

?

I like tuna, and one can is about a daily serving. spouse doesnt like the smell in the refrigerator so eating in one sitting works well. is there a downside? Is it optimal to eat the oil and protein at the same time in the stated ratios?

good karma to you, mr scorpion!
Sc0rp10n

User ID: 3792024
United Kingdom
10/23/2011 05:48 AM

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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
one other question scorpion...

does it matter if the daily protein comes in a lump amount. or does it have to be broken down into increments.

?

I like tuna, and one can is about a daily serving. spouse doesnt like the smell in the refrigerator so eating in one sitting works well. is there a downside? Is it optimal to eat the oil and protein at the same time in the stated ratios?

good karma to you, mr scorpion!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3758697


Increments is very important. I tend to break it down these days to about 4-6 daily helpings.

In many ways protein behaves like glucose but to a lesser degree and over a longer period. I have sometimes called anything beyond adequate protein to be nothing but the ultimate slow release carb :)

The body will use as much protein as it needs at that moment in time for body repairs, etc. Any excess is converted to glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis. That is why resistance exercise is so good. It hugely increases the body's uptake of protein to repair and build new muscle.

People who's liver has become damaged by years of carb abuse, especially fructose, will have very low insulin sensitivity and their liver will pump out huge amounts of glucose by gluconeogenesis. For diabetics this is a huge problem since it causes huge surges in blood sugars at the most unexpected times (esp. mornings). Diabetics actually appear to be benefit most from resistance exercise and I think one of the reasons is that by mopping up the excess protein it takes some pressure off a damaged liver.

So, it's only excess protein that gets converted to glucose and it's a slow process that can take anywhere between 3 and 6 hours.

Therefore splitting into lots of smaller helpings maintains the flow through your system, minimising peaks and troughs.

I have got so used to this way of eating that I now actually struggle with finishing a big meal! Three course meals that I used to eat frequently are totally out .... just not enough stomach room for it and it feels really unpleasant after.
"The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement" Karl R. Popper
Anonymous Coward
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10/24/2011 12:55 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Interesting. I had not thought of a protein as being a slow release carb. I will have to rethink how I intake protein.

Do the carbs, fats and protein need to be consumed together for synergistic reasons? Or do they break down and go their separate ways (no cross reactions)?

long distance runners often do "carb loading" before a race which I always thought was suspect. Sounds like protein loading might be better?

Actually, if you were going to run a marathon, what ratios would you eat for fat, carbs and protein?

Do you have any idea of the transit time for protein to be digested and then used for muscle/body repair.
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10/24/2011 04:35 PM
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Re: If you want to be thin and stay thin (and avoid Metabolic Syndrome), then you have to eat high fat
Will this way of eating work on everybody.

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