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souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/07/2010 01:27 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
my favorite new writer, Taylor Marshall on Purgatory. He
use to be an Episcopal priest:


"If Christ died for all of our sins," asks the Evangelical, "why then do we need Purgatory? Isn't this notion of double expiation redundant?"

From the Catholic point of view, sin has eternal and temporal effects corresponding to eternal and temporal punishment.

Eternal punishment and temporal punishment are both expiated by the cross of Jesus Christ. The former regards ones final destination, the latter regards how we are transformed into the image of Christ.

Although it's not entirely correct, I find that Protestants find it helpful if I compare eternal punishment as regarding justification (are you saved or not), and temporal punishment as regarding sanctification (the process of mortifying sin and our attachment to it).

If one has faith, hope, and charity (i.e. is in a state of grace) at the moment of death he is saved from hell, which is the state eternal punishment. However, our attachment to lesser sins falls under the paternal judgment of God who requires us to be holy as he is holy. Thus, we must undergo chastisement worthy of our status as sons of the Father (either in this world or the next) so that we are like Him and can therefore see Him. Romans 8:28 says that we have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. This conformity must be actual and not merely imputed. This paternal discipline relates to temporal punishment. If we living a penitent life on earth and perform acts of love, then we need less purgation. If we trust Christ but conform our lives to a lesser extent to His cross, then we need more discipline in the world to come.

Our God is a consuming fire...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
People can lala all they want to but Purgatory exists. A brief explanation to Scriptural verses, Old and New Testament referring to Purgatory. Notice Matthew 12:32
below. Our Lord's words.

~ ~ ~


Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59
– Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48
- Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32
– Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48
- when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31
- in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30
- Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10
- every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18
- Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23
- the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6
- Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43
– many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8
- here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4
- Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1145321


How can you deny Purgatory? I highlighted the last which
are Old Testament references to Purgatory.
Anonymous Coward
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11/07/2010 04:40 PM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
You have completely misunderstood the meaning of the passage in Machabees.
Anonymous Coward
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11/07/2010 06:50 PM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
In fact, you've misunderstood all those passages. Blockhead.
Anonymous Coward
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11/07/2010 09:49 PM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
You have completely misunderstood the meaning of the passage in Machabees.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1155050


2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Hi Ac 11550..,

Share if you wouldn't mind please your meaning of 2Macc?

I don't go by PIOS. It's not about personal opinion, I go by the authority God gave the Church to interpret Scripture.

God gave us one authority so we could know, not everyone's private, personal opinion of what each verse means. Such a block about the Truth. The Holy Spirit is not leading everyone into a different meaning, we see the results, split after split among Protestants (32,000 and counting) because you all can't agree.

Proof private interpretation of Scripture is false, a teaching from man.


blessings,


2 Machabees 12 43-45
And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
Dominion

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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Can you not understand what is written plainly?

"thinking well and religiously concerning the RESURRECTION."
"...hoped that they that were slain should RISE AGAIN."

They understood the prayers were of value at the resurrection, not for the present time. It in no way indicates the existence of 'purgatory'.
Sandi_T

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11/07/2010 10:59 PM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
He was trying to buy God's mercy?

Of course, the OP thinks that we should buy off God... and the currency is suffering. God, apparently, just LOOOOVES!!!! suffering!
No more requests in the "Strangest things" thread please. :hf:

Past Lives requests thread: Thread: That Which Once Was: Past Lives
PalmOfDeborah

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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Non-Catholic NDE:

Gradually, things began to clear, and I had a sense of being on the outskirts of the planet. Like some weightless wisp, I stopped at a point outside the Earth’s envelope, and was aware of it behind me, over my shoulder. Yet, I had no shoulder I needed to look over. It was as if I were vision only and wherever I’d turn my attention is where I’d see.

I was slightly confused. This isn’t how it had gone before. I recalled distinctly moving thru a Void and, once my priorities were revealed, inexorably drawn to the LIGHT. But, here I was, come to a complete standstill outside the Earth’s atmosphere and just hanging boundless. What’s a fella ta do?

I turned my vision eyes to look about me and became aware of a group of White Light Beings hovering in space. They were luminescent and appeared less transparent than I felt, with something of a cocoon like shape, reminding me of Casper, the friendly ghost, but longer and leaner. They were spread out a bit and were all observing the planet. I sensed these White Light Beings watched the melodrama unfold in the desert and, perhaps, contributed their collective focus on the crystal I’d been given.

I just knew these things with my “unearthed awareness,” resulting from the expansion ensuing upon departure from a body, or moving beyond the Earth’s aura. I also felt a little shocked as one of them disengaged Himself from the group observations and began moving toward me. I’d not gone as far this time as in my previous NDE; I had come up short of where I’d Intended to go and this whole deal was new. As He approached, I, with more of a question attached than a statement, said, “Love?”.

His immediate reply gave me a sense of peace and of being a bit of a dunce too. “Of course,” He casually said.

I’d impulsed this question from an openness that wasn’t only asking him if he knew IT, but challenging Him, in His Heart of Heart's, if he represented IT, as well. There was no doubt in the purity of his reply when he responded, "Yes.".

I impulsed a query along the lines of, “Well, what are you doin' here?”

His response was, ” We’re the first to arrive... there’s more on the way.”

And there was no mistaking it. He, and I did sense he was decidedly male, was saying something was going to happen. From wherever He and His fellow Light Beings had come from that was Home to Them, more were coming. I distinctly got the impression great masses of these Beings were on the way, and not merely a handful.

This was a good thing. It was like the feeling one gets when a rescue vessel pulls along side a ship in distress. “How do They do that?” I queried.

“It’s a form of electromagnetism utilizing Intention and Attention to travel between planets and stars,” He impulsed.

Thoughts would form in my awareness as we communicated. It was like mental telepathy, yet more. Pictures of information, something like holographic transmissions, were taking place in such a freed up means of communication that effortlessness seems an appropriate word to define it. There was nothing to hide, nor anything hidden.

Understanding what I had been told, I cast my attention toward a grouping of stars feeling to be off too my left. By placing my Attention in that particular quadrant, and then simply releasing it and Intending to go, I felt a ‘drawing toward” begin. It was delightful. and I began thinking of how this must be the way magnets attract one another; the additional kick to get the whole deal in motion was releasing the allowance to move.

I began a “directed drift” in the area I had placed my Intention-Attention and Desire and knew I would soon to be traveling at speeds far greater than any imagined. I wanted to give this thing a practice run and began applying the lessons I’d been given. I could feel a build up of magnetic energy occurring within me, which I somehow knew was integral to the experience. Sorta like watching the Starship Enterprise prepare for warp drive. It drifts a bit, aligns it’s corridor, then engages warp speed. Yet with this experience, I sensed it to be stepped up into the arena of Stardrive.

My thoughts were already moving at the speed of light. I began a torrential out pouring of enthusiastic scientific inquiry. “Well, if this does this, and it goes like this, than that must be like that, and then it must be like this, and if it works like that, then it must go something like,” I gushed. Images, scientific thoughts on the nature of magnets, coupled with philosophical meanderings of the energetics involved in Desire, Attention, and Intention, flooded thru my awareness in an exhilarating hyper leap of new found understandings and metaphysical connections. I was good to go.

"Wait”, the Light Being pulsed, “you must go back”.

And I knew he was right. There wasn’t anything to argue about. It was the way It Was supposed to be, and although I did long to stay, I turned my attention back toward Earth, and was immediately reunited with my physical body.

Source (more at link): [link to www.neardeathdialogues.com]


The beliefs of the experiencer impact the experience. Your Catholic friends want Purgatory and hell, so they are given it.
 Quoting: Sandi_T


That was an interesting read. Thanks, Sandi.
The greatest illusion is the illusion of separation.
anonanon
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
There is no purgatory. Like so much else, the Catholic Church just made it up early on because otherwise there was no hope for anyone of ever getting to heaven.

Their message was you were born sinful and will die sinful and just about anything you ever thought or did was enough to send you straight to hell for all eternity.

They quickly realized that they had to have some plan for those who committed what might be called minor sins.

Hence, their concept of purgatory. Of course you could buy indulgences from the monks which gave you some time off from purgatory. Also, certain prayers came with a number of indulgences.

The selling of indulgences and fake relics was one of the things Martin Luther was protesting when he split from the Vatican.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for the dead if you believe in any kind of life after death. It probably does help them in some way and keeps us connected to those we love who have passed on.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Can you not understand what is written plainly?

"thinking well and religiously concerning the RESURRECTION."
"...hoped that they that were slain should RISE AGAIN."

They understood the prayers were of value at the resurrection, not for the present time. It in no way indicates the existence of 'purgatory'.
 Quoting: Dominion


Hi Dominion,

Please explain your meaning of Resurrection? Resurrection in verse 43 means those who attain Heaven. Better than I can write, read the two explanations.

I posted after, the next verse in 2 Macc, chapter 12, verse 46 and the footnote in my Bible, the Douay-Rheims. www.drbo.org


____________________

This is what the UCCB (United Catholic Conference of Bishops)site has to say ~


Verses[42-45]
This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (2 Macc 12:42) and sacrifices (2 Macc 12:43) for the dead are efficacious. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Macc 7:9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God's cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Notice, the word expiation was used which is synonymous with atonement. Atonement from the punishment for carrying idols in their pockets. Atonement being the remedy for the punishment for what the men did, not the punishment itself.

There is punishment and there is atonement for it, which can thereby lesson or eleviate the punishment. This would be the state of Purgatory. Punishment would be the reason for the state.


Catholic Answers/This Rock concurs:


This book also tells us more about atonement beyond the grave by asserting the existence of purgatory. It also asserts the resurrection of the just and tells us what we need to know about the fate of the unjust (7:9, 14,23,29; 14:46). Thus, for example, in 2 Maccabees 12:43 there is Judas' act of faith in the resurrection and salvation of his fallen soldiers, but he realizes that they must atone for their sins in the next life, and he wishes to help them in this and asks for prayers from the living. This text explicitly states that there is an interim stage where souls are purified and that they can be helped by suffrages offered by the living.
__________________

2 Macc 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.


Footnote: 46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead"... Here is an evident and undeniable proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.
Smilin' Irish Eyes

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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
.....My thoughts were already moving at the speed of light. I began a torrential out pouring of enthusiastic scientific inquiry. “Well, if this does this, and it goes like this, than that must be like that, and then it must be like this, and if it works like that, then it must go something like,” I gushed. Images, scientific thoughts on the nature of magnets, coupled with philosophical meanderings of the energetics involved in Desire, Attention, and Intention, flooded thru my awareness in an exhilarating hyper leap of new found understandings and metaphysical connections. I was good to go....

Source (more at link): [link to www.neardeathdialogues.com]


The beliefs of the experiencer impact the experience. Your Catholic friends want Purgatory and hell, so they are given it.
 Quoting: Sandi_T


Great NDE story Sandi.

roses

Whatever the person believes they are going to experience they will experience because my "heaven" is not your "heaven" as your "heaven" is not the OP's "heaven".
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom. -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool. -- Lord Chesterfield
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 12:02 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
ok they can stay in purgatory
no such thing homie...must be homie cause mexicans are full of catholics...beads made in china and worship mother mary
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 12:08 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
There is no purgatory. Like so much else, the Catholic Church just made it up early on because otherwise there was no hope for anyone of ever getting to heaven.

Their message was you were born sinful and will die sinful and just about anything you ever thought or did was enough to send you straight to hell for all eternity.

They quickly realized that they had to have some plan for those who committed what might be called minor sins.

Hence, their concept of purgatory. Of course you could buy indulgences from the monks which gave you some time off from purgatory. Also, certain prayers came with a number of indulgences.

The selling of indulgences and fake relics was one of the things Martin Luther was protesting when he split from the Vatican.


Doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for the dead if you believe in any kind of life after death. It probably does help them in some way and keeps us connected to those we love who have passed on.
 Quoting: anonanon 1156520




Part of the reason for the denial of Purgatory is not
understanding the degrees of sin. All sins aren't equal.
Common sense, yes? Some preach all sin is equal! Not
true. There are lessor sins, venial and grave sins which
are mortal and must be confessed. We lose God's grace in
our soul when we commit mortal sin.

The abuse of the selling of indulgences was taken care of
at the Council of Trent. Martin Luther went too far and we
see the terrible results.
Smilin' Irish Eyes

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11/08/2010 12:12 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
So OP tell me do you fast before going to Mass?

Do you go to confession before Mass?

Have you eaten meat on Fridays?

Have you had impure thoughts that you have not confessed?


Oh no, according to the man-made tenets of the Catholic faith and the Roman government project okay'd, supervisored and paid by Emperor Constantine called the Vulgate (Bible) that means you are going to suffer in hell for all eternity.

So what do you do OP when your children do things you have told them not to do and they are not sorry that they did them? Do you hate them forever? Do you make them suffer and torture them?

THAT is what you believe God will do.

That is really dysfunctional.

I would never do that to my children and I am not anywhere close to perfect, I am immensely fallible. You can keep that hateful, wrathful, vengeful God. I choose to believe in a perfect, loving God the Father.


Keep God's love and faith in your heart, just lose all the man-made precepts of religion. Ask God to come into your heart and reveal his love. You don't need a book of stories collected by a nomadic desert tribe that was compiled by a bunch of politicians and government scribes.

God is love, not hate, not vengeful.

peace
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom. -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool. -- Lord Chesterfield
Dominion

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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
I've read ALL of that already. It doesn't prove purgatory. Your problem is that you are afraid to think for yourself.

1 Corinthians 3, 10-15
According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise builder, I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon. For other foundation no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--the work of each will be made manifest, for the day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This passage is often used to justify the belief in Purgatory, but what it actually means is that any ideas or teachings that are added to the basic foundation, that Jesus is the Son of God, must stand on their own merits. If they are proven false, which the dogmas all are, then the one who came up with them will lose his reward for those ideas, that is, he won't get any credit for something that proves to be useless. It doesn't mean that his soul will be lost or that he will be punished, just that he won't get paid for a job not well done. When Paul uses the metaphor of fire, as gold is purified in a crucible, he's talking about the test of practical application, as in: try it and see if it works. If it doesn't, thanks for nothing.

I have little patience for Roman Catholic snobbery and I'm not going to explain this again. If you can't understand it that's your problem.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
iamwith


bump

for a Father who actually knows how to deal appropriately with people

:)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
I've read ALL of that already. It doesn't prove purgatory. Your problem is that you are afraid to think for yourself.

1 Corinthians 3, 10-15
According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise builder, I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon. For other foundation no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--the work of each will be made manifest, for the day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This passage is often used to justify the belief in Purgatory, but what it actually means is that any ideas or teachings that are added to the basic foundation, that Jesus is the Son of God, must stand on their own merits. If they are proven false, which the dogmas all are, then the one who came up with them will lose his reward for those ideas, that is, he won't get any credit for something that proves to be useless. It doesn't mean that his soul will be lost or that he will be punished, just that he won't get paid for a job not well done. When Paul uses the metaphor of fire, as gold is purified in a crucible, he's talking about the test of practical application, as in: try it and see if it works. If it doesn't, thanks for nothing.

I have little patience for Roman Catholic snobbery and I'm not going to explain this again. If you can't understand it that's your problem.

 Quoting: Dominion


I asked. You didn't give an explanation, your meaning of Resurrection in verse 43. You didn't reply to those reasons I posted to Macch 12:43-46. Instead, you went to another Chapter and verse. This is a tactic.

Go back to what you first posted and reply. What does Resurrection mean in that verse?

If there is no atonement for our sins committed, no Purgatory. There is no need to pray for the dead, they are in Heaven or hell. Correct? Again, some of our sins are atoned for by our loving acts, our sufferings and our prayers here but not all especially in these times with the loss of faith and the rejection of sin being a sin.
Smilin' Irish Eyes

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11/08/2010 12:51 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
...Go back to what you first posted and reply. What does Resurrection mean in that verse?

If there is no atonement for our sins committed, no Purgatory. There is no need to pray for the dead, they are in Heaven or hell. Correct? Again, some of our sins are atoned for by our loving acts, our sufferings and our prayers here but not all especially in these times with the loss of faith and the rejection of sin being a sin.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156391


Seriously what would you think verses in a book compiled by politicians means?

Read the bill for the Healthcare bill, it has more pages than the Bible and more words. If you can understand every nuance in that healthcare bill for what it is actually intended and then you will be able to understand what the politicians who compiled the Vulgate meant.

How would you feel if Obama convened Congress to compile all the scriptures and come up with an "approved" version and then they had the audacity to come up with a "Congressional Creed" (aka Nicene/Apostle's Creed)?
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom. -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool. -- Lord Chesterfield
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 01:00 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
The great month of the Dead is upon us. Do we have time for our departed loved ones? Do we have time to help our friends reach high places before the throne of God? You can help them. They are poor you are rich. The can do nothing for themselves; you can do everything for them. They can no longer assist at holy Mass and cleanse themselves in the Blood of Christ; you can offer the holy sacrifice and Christ’s Precious Blood for them. They can no longer eat the Bread of Life; you can receive it for them in Holy Communion. They can no longer perform good works or pay their debt by giving alms; you can do it for them! They can no longer draw from graces of the church you can apply your indulgences to them. Your prayers descend to them like refreshing dew and speed them home to Heaven.

Our Lord says to us: “Have mercy on these souls, whom My justice must purify; intercede for them, for they no longer can work; pray for them, atone for them and I will look upon you as if you had done it to me. And on the day of your judgment I will say to you, “Come blessed of my Father for I was in prison and you visited me; And you will ask, “When did I visit you in prison, Lord? And I will answer, “All you did for the Holy souls in the prison of purgatory, you have done it to me.”

Even though the holy souls can do nothing for themselves, they can do much for us even now while they are in purgatory, for they are just. Much more will they intercede for us when they enter into glory. Oh, how we need that prayer in the dangers and troubles of this life; and how we shall long for their prayers when we may have to languish in purgatory.

Our Lady of Medjugorje told visionary Mirjana that in Purgatory there are several levels. The more you pray on earth, the higher your level in purgatory will be. The lowest level is closest to hell where the suffering is the most intense. The highest level is closet to Heaven and there the sufferings are the least.

Descend in spirit into the silent world of the holy souls and learn wisdom from the dead. Keep up a conversation with the holy souls; visit them frequently; appeal to them in the hour of trial and temptation; ask their advice in difficult problems and bring them the help they longingly desire, make their desire your desire, to see the face of God and be with Him forever.
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 01:07 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Another verse taken from Revelation...

Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

...nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven.


What if purgatory really doesn't exist?

Say that there is no such thing as purgatory. What becomes of us? The Bible declares that nothing impurified can enter Heaven, but yet a careless word can defile the soul (Matthew 12:36); if there is no place of temporary punishment, the one guilty would be damned to Hell!

Who would be saved? Those who teach against purgatory teach an unreasonable doctrine.

So, why do non-Catholics reject a teaching so full of consolation? My guess is that they want to believe that the merits of Christ applied to the sinner who trusts in Him, will remove all sin; hence the believer will go at once to Heaven.

_________________

We agree on this, God is perfectly just. Our sins of a life time committed and hopefully repented of and confessed, how are they atoned for in this life? How do you reconcile Matthew 12:36?

Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 01:21 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
...Go back to what you first posted and reply. What does Resurrection mean in that verse?

If there is no atonement for our sins committed, no Purgatory. There is no need to pray for the dead, they are in Heaven or hell. Correct? Again, some of our sins are atoned for by our loving acts, our sufferings and our prayers here but not all especially in these times with the loss of faith and the rejection of sin being a sin.


Seriously what would you think verses in a book compiled by politicians means?

Read the bill for the Healthcare bill, it has more pages than the Bible and more words. If you can understand every nuance in that healthcare bill for what it is actually intended and then you will be able to understand what the politicians who compiled the Vulgate meant.

How would you feel if Obama convened Congress to compile all the scriptures and come up with an "approved" version and then they had the audacity to come up with a "Congressional Creed" (aka Nicene/Apostle's Creed)?
 Quoting: Smilin' Irish Eyes


Smilin,

Hi, that's the whole reason we have the Church. We can know
by going to her for the answer. God set it up this way.

Matthew 18:17-18

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Dominion

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11/08/2010 02:06 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Our Lord says to us: “Have mercy on these souls, whom My justice must purify; intercede for them, for they no longer can work; pray for them, atone for them and I will look upon you as if you had done it to me. And on the day of your judgment I will say to you, “Come blessed of my Father for I was in prison and you visited me; And you will ask, “When did I visit you in prison, Lord? And I will answer, “All you did for the Holy souls in the prison of purgatory, you have done it to me.”
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156566


Jesus never said that.

Our Lady of Medjugorje told visionary Mirjana that in Purgatory there are several levels. The more you pray on earth, the higher your level in purgatory will be. The lowest level is closest to hell where the suffering is the most intense. The highest level is closet to Heaven and there the sufferings are the least.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156566


WHO???

Descend in spirit into the silent world of the holy souls and learn wisdom from the dead. Keep up a conversation with the holy souls; visit them frequently; appeal to them in the hour of trial and temptation; ask their advice in difficult problems and bring them the help they longingly desire, make their desire your desire, to see the face of God and be with Him forever.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156566


That's blasphemy.


Resurrection is the raising of the dead. Duh.
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 03:19 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers



1 Corinthians 3, 10-15
According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise builder, I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon. For other foundation no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--the work of each will be made manifest, for the day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Which are you going to go with? Dominion's personal opinion
of Paul's words as he explains below or the Church teaching for almost 2000 years?

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

This passage is often used to justify the belief in Purgatory, but what it actually means is that any ideas or teachings that are added to the basic foundation, that Jesus is the Son of God, must stand on their own merits. If they are proven false, which the dogmas all are, then the one who came up with them will lose his reward for those ideas, that is, he won't get any credit for something that proves to be useless. It doesn't mean that his soul will be lost or that he will be punished, just that he won't get paid for a job not well done. When Paul uses the metaphor of fire, as gold is purified in a crucible, he's talking about the test of practical application, as in: try it and see if it works. If it doesn't, thanks for nothing.
 Quoting: Dominion
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 04:01 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Sure hope my soul is allowed in purgatory... cause there only way I am getting in to heaven is if I bribe St Pete or climb the gate...

I don;t want to go to hell but my past will be judged...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers




1 Corinthians 3, 10-15
According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise builder, I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon. For other foundation no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--the work of each will be made manifest, for the day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

Dominion, I don't wish to argue. I know Purgatory is
tough for Protestants. Many believe salvation, their justification amounts to a one time event. Here, an easy
very clear description from the Catechism.

“All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).

Dying in God's grace means one dies free of mortal sin.
Why regular Confession is so important for our soul.
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 04:14 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
I was taught when I was in Catholic grade school that new born babies that die go to purgatory. What fucking horseshit! good thing I woke up somewhere along the way and recognized stinky horseshit for what it is
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 04:23 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
NO SUCH THING AS PURGATORY

Catholic religion is a satanic religion and the Pope is not God he is Antichrist.
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2010 04:48 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Purgatory 101

an extremely basic explanation:

* In Heaven we must be perfect to be in the presence of God.
* When we die we are not perfect. We still have our various imperfections that we are "working on."
* To make us perfect, we must "finish up" our work. That is Purgatory. Purgatory is for sins that don't deserve absolute punishment.
Smilin' Irish Eyes

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11/08/2010 07:13 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Seriously what would you think verses in a book compiled by politicians means?

Read the bill for the Healthcare bill, it has more pages than the Bible and more words. If you can understand every nuance in that healthcare bill for what it is actually intended and then you will be able to understand what the politicians who compiled the Vulgate meant.

How would you feel if Obama convened Congress to compile all the scriptures and come up with an "approved" version and then they had the audacity to come up with a "Congressional Creed" (aka Nicene/Apostle's Creed)?



Smilin,

Hi, that's the whole reason we have the Church. We can know
by going to her for the answer. God set it up this way.

Matthew 18:17-18

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156391


God did NOT set it up that way; man did.

Do you really favor one child more than another? Do you treat one child fantastic and the other child horribly?

There is NO "true" religion - religion is a man made construct to control people.

Are you really trying to tell me that God who made so many different species has only ONE religion that is universal for all sentient beings throughout the galaxy? That an earth bound desert tribe found all the answers?

God is more than any religion, he doesn't want fences put up or "gates" shutting him off from his children - would you do that to your children? Is the way your oldest child believes or acts the only "right" way? What about your second or third child that has a different outlook/perception? Are they wrong?

I believe in God and God's love, I don't hold much credence for any religion except as a basic construct to teach children about morals and the value of forgiveness. I refuse to teach them about an everlasting Hell...that is just wrong.

I refuse to teach them that only one religion has all the answers. I want them to learn about Hinduism, Bhuddism, Wiccan, Druid, Gnosticism, Deism, Judaism and what they all believe. See the bigger picture, see the commonalities in each religion - love, kindness, forgiveness and respect for all things.
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom. -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool. -- Lord Chesterfield
Sandi_T

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11/08/2010 07:51 AM
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Re: souls in Purgatory - November is set aside to remember them - share your comments and prayers
Great NDE story Sandi.

roses

Whatever the person believes they are going to experience they will experience because my "heaven" is not your "heaven" as your "heaven" is not the OP's "heaven".
 Quoting: Smilin' Irish Eyes


It's amazing, isn't it?!

It's not mine, just in case anyone misunderstood that point.
No more requests in the "Strangest things" thread please. :hf:

Past Lives requests thread: Thread: That Which Once Was: Past Lives

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