|Users Online Now: 1,090 (Who's On?)||Visitors Today: 303,869|
|Pageviews Today: 425,765||Threads Today: 100||Posts Today: 2,337|
Interview with Disclosure Projects Steven Greer
07/12/2005 06:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Transcript of Dr. Steven Greer´s Interview
on Coast to Coast AM Radio with George Noory
January 30/31 2003
Steven M. Greer, M.D., International Director of CSETI Albemarle County, Virginia, 15th January, 1999.
[link to www.cseti.org] © CSETI is an international and non-profit scientific research and education organization dedicated to the understanding of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI) and Extraterrestrial Civilizations.
CSETI is especially interested in the ETI-Human relationship and in the peaceful furtherance of this relationship. A thorough review of existing data and documents concerning "UFO´s" indicates that the Earth has been visited by ETI and Extraterrestrial Spacecraft (ETS) for decades, if not centuries, and that this contact has intensified since 1947.
The existence and authentication of top secret documents confirming the retrieval of crashed ETs and their occupants, the numerous photographs and films showing ETS, the reports of thousands of credible civilian and military observers, and the presence of associated landing all provide compelling evidence for the ongoing contact between ETI and Humans.
In addition to the investigation and analysis of credible ETI/ETS reports, CSETI is committed to the thoughtful long-term development of bilateral ETI-Human communication and exchange, and open public education on the subject. We regard this endeavor as the most important scientific, and educational project of the next thousand years and invite you to join us. CSETI is supported through the voluntary efforts and contributions of its friends around the world, and we welcome your involvement now!
George Noory (GN): Tonight, this hour, we´re going to talk about Zero Point Energy. Welcome, Dr. Greer. How are you today?
Steven Greer (SG): I´m fine, thank you. How are you?
GN: Good. Always a pleasure. Zero Point Energy. Is there an organization or an individual actually working on this?
SG: Well, we are of course. I´m not so sure it´s really zero point energy. Some would say it´s the quantum vacuum flux field energy. There are a lot of people with different theories about it. But as you know, we have formed a group called Space Energy Access Systems, which is a company that is in the process of identifying and testing technologies, machines, devices that claim to - put simply - put out more energy and electric power than we have to put into it, which of course, supposedly cannot be done, but in fact it can be. The reason I´m speaking with you tonight is that we have apparently - and I´m going to qualify my words very carefully here --
SG: But it appears that we have found such a "Holy Grail"-type device, a very serious invention held by an inventor. My scientific advisor and the board of directors of this group - our group - have recently done an onsite inspection and testing of this system and I can tell you that, except for some of the extraterrestrial devices in UFOs that I´ve seen, this is the most astounding material object I´ve ever seen in my life. And that´s saying something.
So the reason I am speaking about this at this very early stage of its discovery is that the millions of people listening tonight are our protection. Those of you who are listening to this should tell everyone they know that this is a thing coming down the path. It is our intention to protect this system, get it tested, get it perfected, get it out to the public and terminate the need for gas and oil and coal and start an entirely new sustainable civilization on this planet, and that is long overdue. It could have happened probably fifty years ago or more. But it´s now time for us to do it as a people. The people who are hearing this for the first time need to understand that I have considered carefully whether or not to even talk about it at this stage, but we felt for security reasons it´s very important to talk about this.
If the testing and development of this holds up, it will be the single most important scientific breakthrough in the history - the recorded history - of the human race, and that is not an overstatement.
Let me describe what I saw, if you have a moment.
GN: Sure, and tell me how big it is, Steven.
SG: It´s not very big at all! I picked it up —you can pick it up with one hand. Took it out actually on a sidewalk. This device gathered, very passively, less than one watt of power from the environment —I won´t say how it was done, I´m not allowed to at this point— and the machine started up. It generated hundreds of watts of power in usable form, actually running, and we were astonished to see this. We hooked this up ourselves, so it was no mystery about it. We even selected the things to hook up to this thing. It ran a 300-watt light bulb, a 100-watt light bulb, a stereo and an oscillating fan with an electric motor, all at the same time with literally no artificial manmade input of power. So, this is of course an extraordinary scientific breakthrough. The inventor certainly deserves to get the next Nobel prize, or the one that would be awarded after this is fully tested by the scientific community, if indeed what we see holds up.
Now I have to say, our criteria —those who are familiar with our search for this, and we´ve been doing this for some years because we know that they´re not traveling through interstellar space using Exxon Jet-A fuel.
SG: And we know that these technologies could run our planet without pollution, without poverty, and without any more oil wars forever. So, you know, when we began to look for this, our criteria was that the inventor had to be sane and rational enough to allow it to be transparently vetted or tested, and in fact, this person was exactly that kind of very brilliant, humble, realistic man who allowed us to transparently see this device —look at it in its entirety. There were no hidden power sources. As I said, it could be picked up and taken outside and put on the sidewalk, and there it ran! And this is something obviously which could be put in every home, in every car and every industry and would enable the world to leave the era of want and war and enter an era of abundance and peace for as long as we want to create it. So this potentially is one of the greatest breakthroughs I´ve ever seen. And one of the things I´m so grateful for is that, you know, we have heard of these things coming and going in the time of Tesla, in the time of Floyd Sweet, in the time of T. Henry Moray, and others, but to actually stand in the presence of a man who could build such a circuit and see it run. If I had to go to my grave tomorrow, at least I would know that such a thing was possible, which shines an enormous ray of hope into the world of humanity as we apparently march off to the next oil war.
So, I think that it´s a very significant breakthrough. However, it´s preliminary. We are requiring that we have an agreement with the inventor to have a more robust version of this device made in the coming month or two. It will then go through further research and development and reproducibility studies, meaning we must be able to independently reproduce the effects. It will then be tested in at least three independent government and university labs which we have already pre-selected for their honesty and cooperation, and when all those ducks are lined up and we are certain of what we have —I´m telling you this now in a preliminary way— it will then be massively disclosed to the world in what has to be regarded as one of the most important scientific announcements in our time.
GN: Very good. Is this person, Steven —if you can tell me— is he a physicist by any chance?
SG: Um - no. Well, I guess anyone dealing with this kind of energy would be a type of physicist, but not a formally trained physicist. This is somebody who is what you would consider an innate genius in this area and since childhood had a very deep, almost intuitive knowledge of electromagnetism, electrical circuits and things of this sort.
GN: One of Albert Einstein´s protégés many years ago, his name was John Wheeler, once said about this kind of energy that in the volume of a cup of coffee there is enough energy to evaporate all of the world´s oceans. It´s that powerful and could provide that much energy to the world and if you are able --
SG: If you can harness it, yeah.
GN: Yeah, I was just going to say, if you can harness it - my gosh, you´re going to save humanity!
SG: Well, this is why I´m talking to you. I returned from this trip, … and I wanted to be very very clear that this information got out …because I have to tell you that this is the sort of thing that people have unfortunately in the past been absorbed into operations where these technologies have been suppressed. People have been murdered, people have been imprisoned, people have had these things bought out only to sit on the black shelf at a major corporation.
GN: Mm Hmm.
SG: That is not a conspiracy theory. We can prove this in a court of law that this has happened over and over again. And the reason that we are moving quickly to let the world know that this exists is that the ultimate shield against that happening is two things: Number one: my absolute assurance that I will take a bullet before I will let this be suppressed, and number two: that there is no amount of money, that you cannot put enough zeros after a one, to buy us out and keep this thing from getting out to the public. In addition to that, the public needs to understand if anything is to happen to this prospect that is a suppressive effort, that they should absolutely, if they have to, march in the streets to see that it is released again. This is the time for this nonsense, where these sorts of inventions have been suppressed and where humanity has been left basically in a state of downward spiral of poverty and pollution and what have you. We simply have to reverse that trend.
And of course, you´re taking on a five trillion dollar global energy and utility and transportation sector that deals with fossil fuels. But it is really time for that era to close and for another era to open. Even as the President said in his State of the Union address after 9-11, it is a national security imperative that we become energy independent.
SG: And there´s no question that the situation we´re facing around the world today and the vulnerability of so many nations is related to our unnecessary addiction and dependence on fossil fuels - oil, coal, things of this sort. And these technologies, which have been so long suppressed, they´re almost legendary. But I have to tell you, the other important thing —and anyone technical listening to this will know what I´m talking about— we have seen in the last few years a number of devices that looked very promising, but they don´t put out energy in a form that´s usable. This thing, if you can imagine as I´ve described it operating, put out energy at 60 hertz, 110 volts, correct amperage, ran whatever we wanted to plug into it and did so for as long as we left it to do so. Now this is something which, in all my experience going all over the world studying this, I have never witnessed anything like this!
We can see no explanation in the way of a hoax for this and the scientist is completely without guile, honest, straightforward and it was an honor to be with this person. I felt like I was in the presence of someone like Tesla as I saw this person work and to see my science advisor, Dr. Ted Loder, who is a tenured professor of science at the University of New Hampshire, there working beside the man who very openly showed everything and let everything be hooked up by our scientific team. It was just an extraordinary experience and I just hope and I pray and I hope others will be praying with us that we can be guided aright to get this out as quickly as possible to a world that, at this virtually the twelfth hour, certainly needs to find some way of living on this planet without cannibalizing the Earth that sustains us.
GN: Steven, I sense this air of immediacy coming from you. Have you or has this inventor been threatened at all about this?
SG: No, not at all, and the reason we haven´t is that immediately, I have moved this into some very high circles. I mean, you know we have in our network —in the Disclosure Project network— and in the corporate entity, the Space Energy Access Systems, which by the way, the website for that is www.seaspower.com . We have access to virtually anyone of significance in the world today. I mean, literally not six degrees of separation, not really one degree of separation, and we are beginning to notify the correct people that such a thing exists. It would be very very difficult, with me talking on this show tonight and with the phone calls we´ve made this week, quite frankly, for this thing to disappear. So we have not received those threats.
Remember, in 2001, we had over a hundred military and intelligence witnesses and their testimony put out in book and video form and many of them with top secret SDI-TK clearances, holding very sensitive information. Not a single one of them were ever visited and told to be quiet and the reason they haven´t is because we have strategically created security around what we´re doing such that it would be extremely dangerous for that group to do that. However, the reason I feel it very important for the public to know this, and everyone listening needs to refer this show to their friends —very important— because I think that people need to understand that the kinds of operations that have kept these things secret do so only in the shadows. They cannot do it in a spotlight shining on them. They function only like vampires in the dark shadows and in the darkness of night. And if we put this thing out into the light and the people understand what it´s worth to the future of humanity and to our children´s children´s children, the people will not let it be suppressed again.
GN: All right, Steven. Stay with us because I want to chat with you a little bit about how this kind of energy actually works and how soon you think in terms of it being a reality, could get into households. I´m George Noory. Stick with me. This is Coast to Coast A.M.
GN: Welcome back to Coast to Coast. I´m George Noory with Dr. Steven Greer. Steven, because of your heavy involvement in really defining proof of extraterrestrial existence, and what you know, what are the possibilities that this individual who has invented this apparatus might have reverse-engineered it from some source up there?
SG: Yeah, I´m very confident that´s not the case. In fact, that´s one of the criteria we have is that the pedigree, or intellectual property pathway, has to be clean so that it can safely be brought out to the public without the risk of it being legitimately held back by some interests. In this case, I have high confidence that this is a clean pedigree. And, what´s more, that the technology is extraordinarily simple. Now, of course, I guess the genius in all simple things is to understand how to do it. And I don´t pretend to know that. This is —I tell people— I remember when I was at the Pentagon doing a briefing for the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency I said, you know, "I´m just a country doctor here in Virginia."
SG: And you know, really, I don´t pretend to be a physicist or theoretician. We have some very good people who are and who would understand that better, but I can certainly say that this particular inventor, I think that there is zero chance that he discovered this from anything other than his own ability to experiment —the good old fashioned empirical scientific method— and came up with this after many many years of looking into it. But the astonishing thing is the relative simplicity of it. I know that this device had to have weighed less than twenty pounds, that it was small, no more than a foot to foot and a half in diameter. We could see straight through it, see all the components of it, no hidden battery or energy sources and it operated as I described it. So, this of course meets the criteria of what we´ve been looking for and wanting to get protected in our network and get it disseminated and secured and out to the public, we hope at least in terms of it being in a form that would be very stable and functioning and easy to use. If not commercially available, at least something that would be disclosable and transportable to any scientific lab. We hope to have that done in the next few months and known by the public certainly this year and hopefully mid-year. So again, it´s hard to say. This is a very very early stage of an important and rather rigorous process on our part, but we´re going to go with all due speed.
GN: Why would you rule out its - I don´t want to say authenticity - but its use within your organization if something did come from extraterrestrial technologies? So what? If you can get it, and harness it, and use it. What´s wrong with that?
SG: Oh no, that would be fine, but if it has been ripped off out of a government lab or out of a classified project....
GN: Ah, I get it!
SG: Which are the ones who are doing all that work, George. We wouldn´t want to - we really at this stage wouldn´t want to deal with that. Although, because I believe those projects are unconstitutional and illegal, one could probably make the legal case. But it would be an encumbered and difficult pathway and this is why we have been searching for what I call a clean or virginal pathway for these technologies, and indeed this is what I believe we have found. Again, I´m sharing this information very early. Some have said that I shouldn´t even be discussing it at this stage. However, I think that for security reasons there´s safety in numbers. The thing that has had made most of these inventors disappear and most of these efforts disappear are their obscurity. And so, Coast to Coast A.M. is providing a very important service to humanity by letting the people know about this.
GN: Well, when I was talking to Producer Lisa today, she said, "George, I´ve talked to Steven before, but I´ve never heard him this immediate, this energized, where he felt he had to say something and say it now." So I said, "All right, let´s set it up. Let´s get him on!"
SG: Yeah. No, this was something that was just so astonishing and I have to tell you that I felt like we were walking through history as we saw this thing functioning, and the implications of it —if I can just sort of— in a thumbnail sort of sketch, give you the implications of this. Imagine having free energy so that you could desalinate all the water you need to for agriculture and for returning these vast areas of the Earth that have become desert that used to be lush, could be returned to their original condition. Imagine being able to manufacture things with no cost for the energy component, no fuel costs. Imagine the poverty that could be eliminated and the disease and suffering. Most death and suffering into the world is because basic sanitation, clean water, refrigeration, etc., is not available. This can change all that without building multi-billion dollar power plants with transmission lines. Imagine civilizations that do not have electrification now. Just like people went from having no land line phones to having cell phones, they could go from having no power lines to having these devices in their villages and their areas where they could then have a growing level of prosperity and abundance. All the studies have shown that when civilizations move into greater abundance, and with that greater educational opportunity, that the birth rates go down remarkably from ten or eleven per woman down to two or three. So the Malthusian dilemma of all these teeming large populations booming areas and poverty could be corrected. I mean the implications of this are just enormous. In addition, we know that all manufacturing effluent is largely related to the high cost of energy. We have had -- Buckminster Fuller and Archibald MacLeash told me back many years ago in the early seventies, that we already have the technologies to scrub to zero pollution all the manufacturing processes, but they use so darn much electricity that it became a point of diminishing return because the energy sources we were using were polluting.
GN: Of course.
SG: So, In this case, where the energy source is clean and non-polluting and free, you could scrub everything to completely and virtually no pollution into the environment. So you´re talking about the ability to literally transform the way humans live on the Earth and therefore lay a real foundation for living together peacefully and eventually going out in space together peacefully. So --
GN: Just, just —go ahead, Steven.
SG: Yes, I mean, so these are the sorts of implications of this kind of breakthrough. Of course, as people say, there will be winners and losers. Well, 99.999 % of humanity will be the winners. The Earth will be the winner. Our children´s children´s children will be the winners. Now there are people who have very key interests in the fossil fuel area and this is not to be trivialized. But I think that our goal is to do this in a way that would protect and empower those segments by having them have some kind of a cushion as these technologies are phased in and the old smokestack technologies are phased out. This can certainly be done if we´re wise about it and if the current holders of the existing technologies are wise in allowing the transition to happen in an orderly fashion.
GN: Tuesday, George Bush in his State of the Union address was pushing for the use of hydrogen fuel in cars, which is something I´ve been jumping up and down for, for years now. But, one of the problems today with the hydrogen fuel is to generate the kind of electricity in order to generate the hydrogen.
SG: That´s right.
GN: And that has been a serious problem, so my two-fold question - my question two-fold is will your zero point energy concept - would that work directly in automobiles or could you use it to create the electricity to make the hydrogen for the cars?
SG: Well, the answer is both. In other words, you already have two hundred million cars on the road in America, and six hundred and some million in the world. Those are using oil and gas. The ideal thing to do initially because most people are not going to yank the engine out of their car and buy a multi-thousand dollar engine.
GN: No, they can´t afford it.
SG: So what you want to do is use this free energy to have a way of cracking the hydrogen off of water and then have that hydrogen run the cars. I have just met with an inventor who has a fuel injector that you can screw into where your spark plug goes and the car will run on hydrogen! So this technology would allow that to be feasible what the President called for. So the existing internal combustion cars and trucks could be converted to clean burning hydrogen until such time that all the cars that are made come out with a purely electric propulsion system that would be running off of this generator. So I think that, you know, this can be done. Again, we intend to get this information, when we have the final scientific reports in a few months, to the President and to his inner circle. We certainly can get access to that. And I think that this would be an important thing for the National Security Council, the aspect of it that deals with economic security and energy issues, to know about because there´s no question. I mean, whether you´re on the left or the right, or whatever, everyone acknowledges today that it is in the long term, and even short term interest of the United States to wean ourselves off of this addictive black gold known as oil. And I think that the sooner that can be done, the sooner we can move on to a new and more hopeful phase in our history.
GN: Zero Point energy results from the principals of quantum mechanics, which has to do with the physics of subatomic phenomena. Would you explain that for us so that most of us can understand just what we´re talking about here?
SG: Well, as I understand it, if you look at the space around us, not outer space, just the space in the room where you´re sitting. That space and the structure of space and the actually fundamental level at which matter and energy is fluxing out of some very potent field of energy. That´s in some type of a sort of homeostasis. And what these technologies do is that it sort of perturbs the homeostasis enough to tap into that baseline energy or that energy that´s in the quantum vacuum, some would call it, that´s around us, that matter and energy are sort of fluxing in and out of and can tap into it and it´s almost like pulling energy out of a reservoir of energy that´s there all the time but isn´t in a form that can actually be used. What these systems do is tap into that energy and in the case of the device that we saw, actually converts it into usable controlled energy on demand, which was the astonishing thing. I have to admit I have seen some other "over unity" systems where there´s more energy coming out than put in, but it was in a form that was not electric power that was easily usable or convertible and therefore wasn´t really immediately practical and in some cases people were estimating upwards of fifteen million dollars to get it into a form and an access form that this brilliant inventor had in this very simple system that you could literally pick up with one hand and carry out on a sidewalk and turn things on with. So I think that there´s such an enormous body of information on this. If you look, there´s a new almost thousand page book that Dr. Tom Bearden has put out that´s almost encyclopedic in the information on this and he sent me a copy of it. I´m very grateful to him for that and I encourage people to get it if they have the stomach to go through the details. But I think that many people, as I said, Dr. Gene Mallove, Tom Valone, and many people, have studied this and have written about the fact that this has happened and have done sort of an ethnography of this where they´ve studied where there have been a whole culture of scientists over the last hundred years who have in fact discovered this and have invented devices that worked like this, but they have all met some terrible fate out of, of course, the big special interests and cartels that would like to keep us all metered to the public utility companies and to the gas pumps and while that´s certainly understandable, it´s no big surprise that people of vast economic and power and geopolitical interests would do such things. We´re at the point now that it cannot go forward any further without jeopardizing the entirety of the human future.
GN: How long had your inventor been working on this project?
SG: Seven years.
GN: That´s not bad! That´s not bad in R & D [research and development]. Did he ever explain to you why this revelation came to him? Why he decided to do this?
SG: Well, this is an individual who has had a passion for electromagnetism and electricity since apparently age seven. By age ten was taking things apart and coming up with just extraordinary innovative little inventions all on his own, as a ten year old person - child. And now, of course, put his focus on this and also did study the - very carefully the study of the early greats like Tesla and Faraday and Maxwell and what have you. And in fact, apparently, between that knowledge and his own experimentation, intuition, insight —a gift if you want to call it— was able to devise this system. I have to say we were stunned.
I know that three of the members of our board of directors were there, and one of them is a very successful businessman who was just completely in a state of stunned because of the implications of this thing. Because this particular businessman was telling me how he spends two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year just in electric utility bills for his business and I went "My god in heaven! I would like to make that much as a doctor!"
He said, "Yes, that´s just my electric utility bill."
I said, "Oh my gosh. Imagine what that would do!" And this person is not General Motors, of course, but what … efficiency it could add to our civilization and the cost reduction it could bring to manufacturing and the ability for each home to have its own - even micro-agricultural greenhouse where you have a computer controlled delivery of water, heat, and what have you, under controlled circumstances. The energy would be free. You could, almost in any climate, have and grow organically almost anything you would need. The rate-limiting thing to most of these developments is the high cost of energy and the very polluting forms of energy. If you change that equation you fundamentally change the way humans live on Earth.
GN: Now realistically, Steven, if you had no obstacles, and you´re going to have some, but if you didn´t have any, when do you think you might be able to get something like this to market, or at least to a practical test phase?
SG: A practical test phase, we´re shooting for two to three months, and out to then a manufacturable prototype after the test phase, perhaps a year or so, and then after that to market. We hope that by the first quarter or mid-2004 these can be made available. Now, of course, we don´t know what we´re going to encounter and when you get into these sorts of engineering issues you may run into all kinds of disappointments and so I´m speculating here, but this is our intention and we intend to be able to do that. And remember, there are many applications for this. Imagine if you had a power up system for satellites so that you didn´t have them failing in their power or having solar panels that had micro-meteorites damaging them, you could extend the life of satellites and save an enormous amount of money. If you had these things, these sort of power systems eventually could be in every appliance so that every appliance wouldn´t even need to be plugged in. Eventually you could have construction so homes wouldn´t even have wiring. Every lamp and every appliance could have its own power source. This thing is efficient and miniaturizable, if there is such a word - so that you could do this and you would be able to have everything that is made have its own power source and it would completely change the way architecture and construction takes place. Of course the list just goes on and on, but our goal is to be able to do this at least in a generation one stable, usable system, certainly within a year to year and a half. I would like to think sooner, but knowing how things happen in the world, I think it could very well be that long or a bit longer. I would caution we don´t want to take too much longer. We are going to be very aggressively capitalizing this, putting the funds into this, so that that can be done and we can collapse the timeframe because, frankly, Tom Bearden and I were discussing this one time just before we were meeting with members of, doing a briefing for, the staff of the senate environment committee. He said that if these new technologies don´t begin to roll off of the conveyor belt like sausages by the first quarter, or some time around that, of 2004, given the fact that the biosphere is being so strained, given the geopolitical tensions, we may simply just be out of time. So, I think it´s a stroke before midnight and we really need to make this project succeed. I hope that this technology holds up to the scrutiny. I can´t say that at this point. I can say that the onsite testing was extremely promising and I´m hopeful that it will hold up to reproduceability studies and to the scientific analysis that are required in our society and which our team requires, so that will be done in the next few months and we will hope for the best.
GN: All right. And you´re still going to continue to follow up with your Disclosure Project, I´m sure.
SG: Yes, this is the first part of it and in fact this is one of the big disclosures. Remember, UFOs are secret not because people are so afraid so much of extraterrestrials but because UFOs themselves are running off of energy and propulsion systems that would replace the need for oil and gas. So, the secrecy has been mostly out of greed, not out of a security.
GN: Very good. Thanks Steven. Keep us in touch! Dr. Steven Greer. Just go to my website and link up to his. He has two websites www.disclosureproject.org and www.seaspower.com …
End of hour.
|1||Open your eyes Steven Greer is Gay, helllllloooooo!!!||08/20/07|
|2||Dr. Steven Greer is a fraud! post your thoughts.. anyone??||04/14/11|
|3||Project Camelot interviews Dr Steven Greer 7/26/09||08/07/09|
|4||Sirius Steven Greer Disclosure Project Deception - Make Viral All!! Important Information!!||05/19/13|
|5||Project Camelot Interview Dr Steven Greer||08/07/09|
|6||BUSTED! Dr. Steven Greer “Skimmed” Project Funds for PERSONAL Real Estate.||07/05/13|
|7||Fastwalkers The Disclosure Project UFO. Steven Greer||12/18/06|
|8||Dr Steven Greer goes to the MSM: UFO Disclosure imminet!||10/27/09|
|9||The Apocalypse - Book Of Revelation - Steven Greer - Ultimate Disclosure Project||02/10/11|
|10||Major Disclosure Announcement from Dr. Steven Greer||04/27/12|