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Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul

 
708
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08/31/2012 10:15 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
12USC411 says the federal reserve notes must be redeemed at the Treasury, Washington DC or any FEDERAL RESERVE BANK.

The FRB's are the 12 district banks, not the local commercial joint...operating under LICENSE.

I think the concept is correct, but the execution is wrong.

McDonald's corporate headquarters is near Chicago Illinois. If I contract with this business (buy or sell something) I cannot go to the local franchise and present them with an invoice expecting payment. The obligations transacted by the parent corporation do not flow through to the licensee.

If one wants to enjoy the "benefits" of private credit, or a tasty burger, the banks or local drive thru's are there for your convenience.

If one has an issue with the corporate master, it must be taken up directly, or with an authorized agent of the corporation, not its franchisee.

otherwise, good info. However, getting something 95% correct is akin to being a little pregnant.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22809234


Ac if you read the whole law, you would see that the only authorized use of FRN's is by federal reserve banks and their agents. That makes any bank handling frn's part of the federal reserve system as well as you if you are handling FRN's. So you local bank is operating as a federal reserve bank. And as they say the proof is in the pudding. People redeeming FRN's at their local banks are getting tax refunds where none would have been before. Get it, good. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


OK Seeker, here is the WHOLE law. Go ahead and highlight where YOUR assertions (which I have highlighted for your convenience) can be found in the LAW. As one man once said..PUT MY FINGER ON THE LAW!

12USC411

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.


My interpretation of the wording is that this ACT recognizes a SECOND, lawful NATIONAL CURRENCY co-exists...which of course it does...the US NOTE...and that the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE exists for use only within a sterile corridor of commerce, and only cross-flows into the government arena to be accepted in payment for taxes, customs and PUBLIC (as opposed to private) dues.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22897292


you clearly have NOT read and/or understood this thread.

The US Note you are seeking is already on the FACE of every FRN issued today above the 1 and 2 dollar denomination.

THERE ARE 2 NOTES there!!!!

Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp for people? A BOX is a separate thing on any printed page, legally and lawfully and always has been. A BOARDER drawn around something on a NOTE makes is separate.

On the newer issued notes, the "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE" title is clearly printed on the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE located to the left of the big dead guy on the face. The TITLE of the United States NOTE is clearly on the NOTE to the left of the big dead guys image on the face.

GET IT? Is that simple enough for you?

The NOTES you are so desperate to find "at the Federal Reserve Banks" are already IN YOUR POCKET!

It is the DEMAND, recorded on every bank transaction that NOTICES THEM of your demand per 12-USC-411.

Read the above again until it sinks in, cause you are not getting it.
seeker2

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08/31/2012 11:26 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized.

This to me says that anyone handling frn's is either an agent or a bank. Since most people and banks handle frn's that makes the banks part of the fed and you can redeem your frn's their and this relieve yourself also the contractual obligations of being a federal reserve agent and bond by their rules, ie laws. But just remember you are volunteering to use the frn's and this it makes the tax you pay for using private money voluntary, just as they claim. sk
Anonymous Coward
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08/31/2012 12:15 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
12USC411 says the federal reserve notes must be redeemed at the Treasury, Washington DC or any FEDERAL RESERVE BANK.

The FRB's are the 12 district banks, not the local commercial joint...operating under LICENSE.

I think the concept is correct, but the execution is wrong.

McDonald's corporate headquarters is near Chicago Illinois. If I contract with this business (buy or sell something) I cannot go to the local franchise and present them with an invoice expecting payment. The obligations transacted by the parent corporation do not flow through to the licensee.

If one wants to enjoy the "benefits" of private credit, or a tasty burger, the banks or local drive thru's are there for your convenience.

If one has an issue with the corporate master, it must be taken up directly, or with an authorized agent of the corporation, not its franchisee.

otherwise, good info. However, getting something 95% correct is akin to being a little pregnant.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22809234


Ac if you read the whole law, you would see that the only authorized use of FRN's is by federal reserve banks and their agents. That makes any bank handling frn's part of the federal reserve system as well as you if you are handling FRN's. So you local bank is operating as a federal reserve bank. And as they say the proof is in the pudding. People redeeming FRN's at their local banks are getting tax refunds where none would have been before. Get it, good. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


OK Seeker, here is the WHOLE law. Go ahead and highlight where YOUR assertions (which I have highlighted for your convenience) can be found in the LAW. As one man once said..PUT MY FINGER ON THE LAW!

12USC411

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.


My interpretation of the wording is that this ACT recognizes a SECOND, lawful NATIONAL CURRENCY co-exists...which of course it does...the US NOTE...and that the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE exists for use only within a sterile corridor of commerce, and only cross-flows into the government arena to be accepted in payment for taxes, customs and PUBLIC (as opposed to private) dues.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22897292


you clearly have NOT read and/or understood this thread.

The US Note you are seeking is already on the FACE of every FRN issued today above the 1 and 2 dollar denomination.

THERE ARE 2 NOTES there!!!!

Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp for people? A BOX is a separate thing on any printed page, legally and lawfully and always has been. A BOARDER drawn around something on a NOTE makes is separate.

On the newer issued notes, the "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE" title is clearly printed on the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE located to the left of the big dead guy on the face. The TITLE of the United States NOTE is clearly on the NOTE to the left of the big dead guys image on the face.

GET IT? Is that simple enough for you?

The NOTES you are so desperate to find "at the Federal Reserve Banks" are already IN YOUR POCKET!

It is the DEMAND, recorded on every bank transaction that NOTICES THEM of your demand per 12-USC-411.

Read the above again until it sinks in, cause you are not getting it.
 Quoting: 708 20901334


Without getting into the legal definitions of what boxes and borders do or don't represent in the law, I have studied the $10 bill relative to your points.

First, the HEADER, above the box clearly states:
FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE. This runs the entire width of the note. If this were a dual note, then WHY does US NOTE not appear over that half of the note? I do not see US NOTE anywhere on the bill...and clearly if the dual bill concept were correct, this would be MANDATORY under the auspices of CONTRACT LAW, which requires full and complete disclosure to be binding.

There are dual seals, which makes logical sense. The NOTE is being issued under the authority of the federal reserve, under the delegated power from congress via the fed act of 1913. Thus, the fed seal represents the issuing authority and the us treasury confirming its authenticity as guaranteeing party (under 12usc411). The two serial numbers appear in proximity to both seals as both parties are issuers...the us in the sense that the taxpayers are responsible for their repayment.

The signatures on BOTH sides are of the treasurer and secretary treasurer of the UNITED STATES because they are the cosigners or ultimate guarantors of the debt.

Under your theory, why does the FED side of the bill not have the signature of the FED chairman...?

Check and MATE.

If you bothered to read about the history of the US NOTE, you will see that it is still technically in circulation...or available for circulation but is not because...in the words of the treasury...they are not "needed" since the functions are essentially the same and already served by FRN's. Note the use of the word ESSENTIALLY.

Thus there are at LEAST two methods of redemption available for the FRN. One being minted coins up to the dollar denomination and two, separately printed and held US NOTES, of which there are 300 million in storage.

Since the US notes are still defined by gold and silver standard amounts, their issuance is limited to the number available based on gold and silver governmental holdings. Thus the US note currency is INELASTIC. Note that the fact the US notes are no longer redeemable for physical gold and silver is irrelevant to this point.

There are two distinct currencies, the FRN (elastic) and the US NOTE (inelastic). Converting BACK to the US NOTE STOPS all the financial hijinks that take place with the FRN..caused, as you have stated, by the PLEDGING of citizens labor to MAKE GOOD the elastic expansion of the money supply.

HOWEVER, as you can imagine, the conversion process is one of REDEMPTION and an AFFIRMATIVE ACT by the holder. As I argued earlier, the REDEMPTION PROCESS is a PHYSICAL CONVERSION and is done at a PHYSICAL LOCATION.

You do not mentally conjure up this transformation...one would physically offer up their elastic FRNs for US NOTES at the PHYSICAL LOCATIONS noted in 12USC411.

708, I recognize that you are invested in your position and reluctant to change. Be aware that we are all growing and learning here and no one expects you to have all of the answers. I have learned much from your postings and credit you for starting me down this path in the first place.
Anonymous Coward
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08/31/2012 12:18 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized.

This to me says that anyone handling frn's is either an agent or a bank. Since most people and banks handle frn's that makes the banks part of the fed and you can redeem your frn's their and this relieve yourself also the contractual obligations of being a federal reserve agent and bond by their rules, ie laws. But just remember you are volunteering to use the frn's and this it makes the tax you pay for using private money voluntary, just as they claim. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


Read the legal definition of AGENT. It is clear that the assigning of AGENCY is an AFFIRMATIVE ACT, not a casual happening.

You could make anyone your AGENT by giving them your checkbook or cash and telling them to go buy you a house or car.

If they buy you a piece of shit or ramshackle house, who is to blame? What recourse would you have?

AGENCY typically is done in writing with the parameters clearly spelled out. SHow me where that is done relative to your point...saying "this to me says"...does not cut it as an argument.
708
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08/31/2012 07:47 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
...


Ac if you read the whole law, you would see that the only authorized use of FRN's is by federal reserve banks and their agents. That makes any bank handling frn's part of the federal reserve system as well as you if you are handling FRN's. So you local bank is operating as a federal reserve bank. And as they say the proof is in the pudding. People redeeming FRN's at their local banks are getting tax refunds where none would have been before. Get it, good. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


OK Seeker, here is the WHOLE law. Go ahead and highlight where YOUR assertions (which I have highlighted for your convenience) can be found in the LAW. As one man once said..PUT MY FINGER ON THE LAW!

12USC411

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.


My interpretation of the wording is that this ACT recognizes a SECOND, lawful NATIONAL CURRENCY co-exists...which of course it does...the US NOTE...and that the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE exists for use only within a sterile corridor of commerce, and only cross-flows into the government arena to be accepted in payment for taxes, customs and PUBLIC (as opposed to private) dues.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22897292


you clearly have NOT read and/or understood this thread.

The US Note you are seeking is already on the FACE of every FRN issued today above the 1 and 2 dollar denomination.

THERE ARE 2 NOTES there!!!!

Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp for people? A BOX is a separate thing on any printed page, legally and lawfully and always has been. A BOARDER drawn around something on a NOTE makes is separate.

On the newer issued notes, the "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE" title is clearly printed on the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE located to the left of the big dead guy on the face. The TITLE of the United States NOTE is clearly on the NOTE to the left of the big dead guys image on the face.

GET IT? Is that simple enough for you?

The NOTES you are so desperate to find "at the Federal Reserve Banks" are already IN YOUR POCKET!

It is the DEMAND, recorded on every bank transaction that NOTICES THEM of your demand per 12-USC-411.

Read the above again until it sinks in, cause you are not getting it.
 Quoting: 708 20901334


Without getting into the legal definitions of what boxes and borders do or don't represent in the law, I have studied the $10 bill relative to your points.

First, the HEADER, above the box clearly states:
FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE. This runs the entire width of the note.

There is also a box around that, or are you blind?

If this were a dual note, then WHY does US NOTE not appear over that half of the note? I do not see US NOTE

It says "NOTE" and "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" you need your vision checked.


anywhere on the bill...and clearly if the dual bill concept were correct, this would be MANDATORY under the auspices of CONTRACT LAW, which requires full and complete disclosure to be binding.


There are dual seals, which makes logical sense. The NOTE is being issued under the authority of the federal reserve, under the delegated power from congress via the fed act of 1913. Thus, the fed seal represents the issuing authority and the us treasury confirming its authenticity as guaranteeing party (under 12usc411). The two serial numbers appear in proximity to both seals as both parties are issuers...the us in the sense that the taxpayers are responsible for their repayment.

The signatures on BOTH sides are of the treasurer and secretary treasurer of the UNITED STATES because they are the cosigners or ultimate guarantors of the debt.

Not true, because there are 2 notes there, therefore, there is only ONE signature on each NOTE (and if look carefully, the US NOTE on the right side of the newest notes actually have GOLD printing on them, further proof of your blindness and outright lies. The single signature on each note needs a second endorser, YOU since you are the "authorized agent" when you do not demanding your redemption. Stop trying to make this so difficult, because you are WRONG.

Under your theory, why does the FED side of the bill not have the signature of the FED chairman...?

Check and MATE.

Because the Treasury is acting as AGENT of the Federal reserve, duh.


If you bothered to read about the history of the US NOTE, you will see that it is still technically in circulation...or available for circulation but is not because...in the words of the treasury...they are not "needed" since the functions are essentially the same and already served by FRN's. Note the use of the word ESSENTIALLY.



Thus there are at LEAST two methods of redemption available for the FRN. One being minted coins up to the dollar denomination and two, separately printed and held US NOTES, of which there are 300 million in storage.

Then there is no redemption, because YOU cannot get the red sealed notes, so stop acting like you can. Again, since you are lost in the forest looking for trees, the US NOTE is right there in front of your face, legally and lawfully, like it or not, accept it or not.

Since the US notes are still defined by gold and silver standard amounts, their issuance is limited to the number available based on gold and silver governmental holdings. Thus the US note currency is INELASTIC. Note that the fact the US notes are no longer redeemable for physical gold and silver is irrelevant to this point.

There are two distinct currencies, the FRN (elastic) and the US NOTE (inelastic). Converting BACK to the US NOTE STOPS all the financial hijinks that take place with the FRN..caused, as you have stated, by the PLEDGING of citizens labor to MAKE GOOD the elastic expansion of the money supply.

HOWEVER, as you can imagine, the conversion process is one of REDEMPTION and an AFFIRMATIVE ACT by the holder. As I argued earlier, the REDEMPTION PROCESS is a PHYSICAL CONVERSION and is done at a PHYSICAL LOCATION.

You do not mentally conjure up this transformation...one would physically offer up their elastic FRNs for US NOTES at the PHYSICAL LOCATIONS noted in 12USC411.

708, I recognize that you are invested in your position and reluctant to change. Be aware that we are all growing and learning here and no one expects you to have all of the answers. I have learned much from your postings and credit you for starting me down this path in the first place.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22897292


Mine in RED above. You have no solution, nor do you offer any proof you can get the red sealed notes BECAUSE YOU CANT.

I have known personally people who have gone to FED main banks and asked for redemption, they got sent to a public bank. WHY? Because the DAMAND is what is key here, not FIAT paper currency, even with RED SEALS.

Not reluctant to change, I just have no reason to believe you know what you are talking about, since you have NO US Notes, and you clearly do not "get it".
Anonymous Coward
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08/31/2012 08:23 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
More sovereign citizen gobbledegook. OP, I remember you from the infamous "Governors of All 50 States" thread a couple years back. Still peddling your bullshit, I see.

Caveat emptor. Trying any of this stuff in real life will get you into loads of legal trouble because it's illegal.

Tim Turner should be proof enough of that.

21st centiury snake oil salesman.
708
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08/31/2012 11:13 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
More sovereign citizen gobbledegook. OP, I remember you from the infamous "Governors of All 50 States" thread a couple years back. Still peddling your bullshit, I see.

Caveat emptor. Trying any of this stuff in real life will get you into loads of legal trouble because it's illegal.

Tim Turner should be proof enough of that.

21st centiury snake oil salesman.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12790821


Obeying the law is "illegal"? Thats a rich one!! What are you selling besides the same ol "ya goin ta jaol iffin ya stand up ta maaaaaaan."

You are a coward.

Back to the old standby fear mongering. BE AFRAID! THE GODS OF GOVERNMENT RULE ALL.

Thanks for all the bumps, and for the record, I am not the OP of this thread.

Couple of years back? Why am I not in prison then? What is your god waiting for?

Where is your Grand Wizard to strike down the INFIDEL?

Here we are, "years" later, Tim is nowhere to be found, but here I am, still redeeming lawful money, demanding your gods PROVE their power over me and defying their majik "spelling" and cult at every turn.

Don't be a hater, just go away, cause you are, like most cowards, all talk and hot air.
seeker2

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09/01/2012 12:38 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
As I suggested before, the proof is in the pudding. Many are and used this method to get full refunds of all taxes paid and not have to pay taxes on their sweat equity. So I would say the at least the IRS is treating redeemed lawful money differently that FRN's. The physical note is just a piece of paper. It is you who define it, and give it value or not. In the same way you redeem frn's on demand. It is the demand that counts. So argue all you want my eyes have seen the paper work from the IRS and people redeeming lawful money that supports the fact and act of redeeming FRN's relieve one of the income tax burden.

So in following a law, and interpreting the way in which I do seems to be working for hundreds. Could there be another explanation as to why it works, Yes, but I have yet to see or hear of it. sk

PS in regards to 50 states and prior threads. We all change and grow, so please just let it go and allow me to be who I'm in present time. Thanks. sk
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
...


OK Seeker, here is the WHOLE law. Go ahead and highlight where YOUR assertions (which I have highlighted for your convenience) can be found in the LAW. As one man once said..PUT MY FINGER ON THE LAW!

12USC411

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.


My interpretation of the wording is that this ACT recognizes a SECOND, lawful NATIONAL CURRENCY co-exists...which of course it does...the US NOTE...and that the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE exists for use only within a sterile corridor of commerce, and only cross-flows into the government arena to be accepted in payment for taxes, customs and PUBLIC (as opposed to private) dues.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22897292


you clearly have NOT read and/or understood this thread.

The US Note you are seeking is already on the FACE of every FRN issued today above the 1 and 2 dollar denomination.

THERE ARE 2 NOTES there!!!!

Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp for people? A BOX is a separate thing on any printed page, legally and lawfully and always has been. A BOARDER drawn around something on a NOTE makes is separate.

On the newer issued notes, the "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE" title is clearly printed on the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE located to the left of the big dead guy on the face. The TITLE of the United States NOTE is clearly on the NOTE to the left of the big dead guys image on the face.

GET IT? Is that simple enough for you?

The NOTES you are so desperate to find "at the Federal Reserve Banks" are already IN YOUR POCKET!

It is the DEMAND, recorded on every bank transaction that NOTICES THEM of your demand per 12-USC-411.

Read the above again until it sinks in, cause you are not getting it.
 Quoting: 708 20901334


Without getting into the legal definitions of what boxes and borders do or don't represent in the law, I have studied the $10 bill relative to your points.

First, the HEADER, above the box clearly states:
FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE. This runs the entire width of the note.

There is also a box around that, or are you blind?

If this were a dual note, then WHY does US NOTE not appear over that half of the note? I do not see US NOTE

It says "NOTE" and "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" you need your vision checked.


anywhere on the bill...and clearly if the dual bill concept were correct, this would be MANDATORY under the auspices of CONTRACT LAW, which requires full and complete disclosure to be binding.


There are dual seals, which makes logical sense. The NOTE is being issued under the authority of the federal reserve, under the delegated power from congress via the fed act of 1913. Thus, the fed seal represents the issuing authority and the us treasury confirming its authenticity as guaranteeing party (under 12usc411). The two serial numbers appear in proximity to both seals as both parties are issuers...the us in the sense that the taxpayers are responsible for their repayment.

The signatures on BOTH sides are of the treasurer and secretary treasurer of the UNITED STATES because they are the cosigners or ultimate guarantors of the debt.

Not true, because there are 2 notes there, therefore, there is only ONE signature on each NOTE (and if look carefully, the US NOTE on the right side of the newest notes actually have GOLD printing on them, further proof of your blindness and outright lies. The single signature on each note needs a second endorser, YOU since you are the "authorized agent" when you do not demanding your redemption. Stop trying to make this so difficult, because you are WRONG.

Under your theory, why does the FED side of the bill not have the signature of the FED chairman...?

Check and MATE.

Because the Treasury is acting as AGENT of the Federal reserve, duh.


If you bothered to read about the history of the US NOTE, you will see that it is still technically in circulation...or available for circulation but is not because...in the words of the treasury...they are not "needed" since the functions are essentially the same and already served by FRN's. Note the use of the word ESSENTIALLY.



Thus there are at LEAST two methods of redemption available for the FRN. One being minted coins up to the dollar denomination and two, separately printed and held US NOTES, of which there are 300 million in storage.

Then there is no redemption, because YOU cannot get the red sealed notes, so stop acting like you can. Again, since you are lost in the forest looking for trees, the US NOTE is right there in front of your face, legally and lawfully, like it or not, accept it or not.

Since the US notes are still defined by gold and silver standard amounts, their issuance is limited to the number available based on gold and silver governmental holdings. Thus the US note currency is INELASTIC. Note that the fact the US notes are no longer redeemable for physical gold and silver is irrelevant to this point.

There are two distinct currencies, the FRN (elastic) and the US NOTE (inelastic). Converting BACK to the US NOTE STOPS all the financial hijinks that take place with the FRN..caused, as you have stated, by the PLEDGING of citizens labor to MAKE GOOD the elastic expansion of the money supply.

HOWEVER, as you can imagine, the conversion process is one of REDEMPTION and an AFFIRMATIVE ACT by the holder. As I argued earlier, the REDEMPTION PROCESS is a PHYSICAL CONVERSION and is done at a PHYSICAL LOCATION.

You do not mentally conjure up this transformation...one would physically offer up their elastic FRNs for US NOTES at the PHYSICAL LOCATIONS noted in 12USC411.

708, I recognize that you are invested in your position and reluctant to change. Be aware that we are all growing and learning here and no one expects you to have all of the answers. I have learned much from your postings and credit you for starting me down this path in the first place.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22897292


Mine in RED above. You have no solution, nor do you offer any proof you can get the red sealed notes BECAUSE YOU CANT.

I have known personally people who have gone to FED main banks and asked for redemption, they got sent to a public bank. WHY? Because the DAMAND is what is key here, not FIAT paper currency, even with RED SEALS.

Not reluctant to change, I just have no reason to believe you know what you are talking about, since you have NO US Notes, and you clearly do not "get it".
 Quoting: 708 20901334


708, your answers are a bit weak. For example, you have derided others for providing anecdotal "evidence", yet YOU fall back on "knowing" others who tried something and failed...the same thing you have repeatedly blasted others for. Have YOU tried to redeem FRN's PERSONALLY...and, if so, what was the outcome?

Have YOU gone to the US Treasury and demanded redemption under 12USC411? If not, then you have no standing to opine on the facts in question. Speculation and conjecture lacking basis in fact, is all so much hot air. Correct me if I am wrong, but this thread purports to offer a LEGAL and LAWFUL avenue, relying on CODE...yet you do not advocate following the letter of the LAW, as it was written. Do you not realize that it is the LETTER of the law, not the SPIRIT of the law which has led this country down the dead end path it now finds itself?

The LETTER OF THE LAW snares the careless and simple-minded. It is their downfall and ruin. Jesus himself tossed those types out of the temple, or so it was written.

The remedy is there because it has to be...there is no choice. HOWEVER, it is not REQUIRED that the escapement is particularly convenient or easy to follow, and 12usc411 is not.

I have offered up a detailed "laundry list" of problems with your theories. You have danced and dodged around the very clearly delineated points and, ultimately, have fallen back on conjecture and supposition. You also have one foot in Seekers camp...the particularly WEAK conclusion that because the IRS is issuing "refunds", the methodology MUST be correct under law. This is a very dangerous, and totally unfounded, conclusion. You must realize that IRS returns and refunds are almost completely processed automatically. The computers assume correct "voluntary compliance" and process accordingly. In other words, if you SAY you are owed a refund, the IRS will give it to you. Doesn't mean anything more than that's how the system works. However, if the ratios between line items trigger a flag, it will go through a human review process...which might take months or years.

Go look at that idiot in Michigan who advocated filing zero returns or such nonsense. He ALSO advocated a system he claimed would not necessitate paying taxes, and///surprise! he used the Seeker approved proof of PRINTING many IRS checks from his minions showing once and for all that his method was IRS approved.

Of course, he ended up in the can and his students ended up paying hefty fines...many years after the book was published.

THE TRUTH...ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!

Bottom line, I am challenging you to put up or shut up. No more dancing and half-truths. If you people were complete morans, I wouldn't waste my time arguing. However, your underlying assertion on 12USC411 is, I believe CORRECT. Your execution is not. And getting things half-right is the same as being completely wrong.

So, again, I ask you to offer concrete proof of your assertions or withdraw them.

Put my finger on the law, or it ain't a FACT. My assertions come from the letter of the law and yours don't.

By the way, how would you know if I have been successful in redeeming FRN's for US Notes?...yet you ASSERT with confidence that I have not and have none in my possession. It is this same level of bullshit which sinks the rest of your story. Be advised that there are many here who are fully capable of rational analysis, not easily led, and know BS when they step in it
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 01:48 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
As I suggested before, the proof is in the pudding. Many are and used this method to get full refunds of all taxes paid and not have to pay taxes on their sweat equity. So I would say the at least the IRS is treating redeemed lawful money differently that FRN's. The physical note is just a piece of paper. It is you who define it, and give it value or not. In the same way you redeem frn's on demand. It is the demand that counts. So argue all you want my eyes have seen the paper work from the IRS and people redeeming lawful money that supports the fact and act of redeeming FRN's relieve one of the income tax burden.

So in following a law, and interpreting the way in which I do seems to be working for hundreds. Could there be another explanation as to why it works, Yes, but I have yet to see or hear of it. sk

PS in regards to 50 states and prior threads. We all change and grow, so please just let it go and allow me to be who I'm in present time. Thanks. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


What the hell does "the proof is in the pudding" mean anyway? What proof? What pudding?

I for one am not going to dig through your pudding looking for the truth.

If 12USC411 is the code law, and it has not been ratified or changed, then why have you been unable to trigger the redemption mechanism? If you go to the FED bank, or the Treasury, or your local retail bank and show them the code law, why is it YOU that look stupid when they say they don't know what YOU are talking about. If banking is THEIR business, it is THEY which should be able to explain the process. You, and others have related numerous stories how tellers have pleaded ignorance or refused endorsements of redemption. Do you not find that odd? Perhaps it would be like going to the local McDonalds and presenting an invoice for payment for services provided to their corporate headquarters. They wouldn't know how to deal with that either.

If one headed to the US Treasury, Washington DC with a fistful of FRN's and a copy of 12USC411 and demanded redemption, do you think you would get a blank stare back? DO you think that SOMEONE in that building would know how to do a redemption? IT IS THE PRECISE WRITING OF THE LAW!

YOU THINK THAT THE LAW WOULD BE IGNORED IN THAT CASE?

COULD ONE NOT PETITION CONGRESS FOR REDRESS OF THE TREASURY FAILING TO REDEEM A PRIVATE CURRENCY FOR LAWFUL MONEY, PER CONGRESSIONAL LAW?

This would separate the wheat from the chaff quickly, and all this other bullshit would fall to the wayside. THE FRN's are either redeemable, or they are not. According to the clearly worded law, they ARE. But you morans are ASSUMING you can take the easy way and run to your nearest drive-thru and do what the LAW does not provide for...and you cannot provide one IOTA of proof that what you assert to be a lawful path of redemption is in fact authorized. It certainly ain't clear in the CODE! But redemption at the TREASURY, Washington DC IS.

Pick any code law and look how carefully the wording and verbiage is tweaked at random intervals. I guaran-fucking-tee that there are not laws on the books which don't belong there. If this wasn't a legitimate pathway, it wouldn't be here.
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
More sovereign citizen gobbledegook. OP, I remember you from the infamous "Governors of All 50 States" thread a couple years back. Still peddling your bullshit, I see.

Caveat emptor. Trying any of this stuff in real life will get you into loads of legal trouble because it's illegal.

Tim Turner should be proof enough of that.

21st centiury snake oil salesman.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12790821


The presence of stupid assholes continues unabated here at GLP.

People who offer no rational arguments or refutations and clog up threads with unsupported allegations are the lowest of the low. Real mouth breathers.

Fuck off, asshole.
seeker2

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09/01/2012 06:51 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
The truth must be getting out, as we have attracted two new trolls to our once peaceful thread. No matter. It is obvious based on their postings that they lack the ability to understand the obvious or are purposely discounting anything and everything that doesn't fit their agenda, which would seem to be disrupt the thread and try and convince others that redeeming lawful money doesn't work. If they new 708 and myself, they would know we both have successfully redeemed lawful money at our local banks. Thus freeing ourselves from the contractual obligations imposed on us by using unredeemed federal reserve notes. I for one am done attempting to communicate with one of them as it is clear what his goals and intentions are. sk
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 02:13 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
The truth must be getting out, as we have attracted two new trolls to our once peaceful thread. No matter. It is obvious based on their postings that they lack the ability to understand the obvious or are purposely discounting anything and everything that doesn't fit their agenda, which would seem to be disrupt the thread and try and convince others that redeeming lawful money doesn't work. If they new 708 and myself, they would know we both have successfully redeemed lawful money at our local banks. Thus freeing ourselves from the contractual obligations imposed on us by using unredeemed federal reserve notes. I for one am done attempting to communicate with one of them as it is clear what his goals and intentions are. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


your comments are odd, to say the least.

Re-reading the poster you are referring to, he did not say that redeeming lawful money does not work, in fact he stated repeatedly that he believes that you and 708 are exactly right and have made an important discovery. What he disagrees with is that you have strayed from the redemption method exactly specified and codified in the language of the law. When he pressed you to defend your variances, you immediately call "troll" and get all defensive.

Either defend your position by demonstrating the PROOF of what you say, or consider the possibility that you, and others are WRONG. He already poked holes in your proffered "PROOF"...do you have anything else to put on the table?

Many people are trying to extricate themselves from this carefully laid web of lies, and it is a difficult path. When "seekers" turn on each other rather than those who would enslave them, progress is lost and many will give up.

Put another way, if you were in a court of law, where the standards of proof and evidence are strictly defined, would you rather defend a redemption process that adhered to the letter of the law...ie that you had traveled to the Treasury Washington DC and demanded redemption and were refused...or that you assumed the local bank branch was an AGENT of the FED, and you THOUGHT all you needed to do was write some stuff on the back of a check, or modify your banking agreement...or you THOUGHT because the IRS processed a refund check that you were good..etc etc.

Any one of those defenses which would easily be blown out of the water. If the FED testified that commercial banks were not AGENTS, but LICENSEES, how would you refute that? WHo would be believed?

If you offered up a handful of paper scraps with serial numbers and the local bank manager said "oh yeah, that nut kept coming in and harassing our tellers about redeeming money"...how far would that get you? To my reading NONE of this is stated in the language of the CODE..thus it does not exist in law.

It is a real shame that you and your kind fall back on bullshit to explain what you cannot prove when the TRUTH is staring you in the face.

As far as being a TROLL, why would you NOT advocate redeeming as per the LAW OF THE CODE? WHat is the downside in converting your frn's at the treasury, washington DC as provided in law.

COnvenience??
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09/01/2012 02:15 PM
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Great thread, by the way. I learned a lot.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences.
seeker2

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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
The truth must be getting out, as we have attracted two new trolls to our once peaceful thread. No matter. It is obvious based on their postings that they lack the ability to understand the obvious or are purposely discounting anything and everything that doesn't fit their agenda, which would seem to be disrupt the thread and try and convince others that redeeming lawful money doesn't work. If they new 708 and myself, they would know we both have successfully redeemed lawful money at our local banks. Thus freeing ourselves from the contractual obligations imposed on us by using unredeemed federal reserve notes. I for one am done attempting to communicate with one of them as it is clear what his goals and intentions are. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


your comments are odd, to say the least.

Re-reading the poster you are referring to, he did not say that redeeming lawful money does not work, in fact he stated repeatedly that he believes that you and 708 are exactly right and have made an important discovery. What he disagrees with is that you have strayed from the redemption method exactly specified and codified in the language of the law. When he pressed you to defend your variances, you immediately call "troll" and get all defensive.

Either defend your position by demonstrating the PROOF of what you say, or consider the possibility that you, and others are WRONG. He already poked holes in your proffered "PROOF"...do you have anything else to put on the table?

Many people are trying to extricate themselves from this carefully laid web of lies, and it is a difficult path. When "seekers" turn on each other rather than those who would enslave them, progress is lost and many will give up.

Put another way, if you were in a court of law, where the standards of proof and evidence are strictly defined, would you rather defend a redemption process that adhered to the letter of the law...ie that you had traveled to the Treasury Washington DC and demanded redemption and were refused...or that you assumed the local bank branch was an AGENT of the FED, and you THOUGHT all you needed to do was write some stuff on the back of a check, or modify your banking agreement...or you THOUGHT because the IRS processed a refund check that you were good..etc etc.

Any one of those defenses which would easily be blown out of the water. If the FED testified that commercial banks were not AGENTS, but LICENSEES, how would you refute that? WHo would be believed?

If you offered up a handful of paper scraps with serial numbers and the local bank manager said "oh yeah, that nut kept coming in and harassing our tellers about redeeming money"...how far would that get you? To my reading NONE of this is stated in the language of the CODE..thus it does not exist in law.

It is a real shame that you and your kind fall back on bullshit to explain what you cannot prove when the TRUTH is staring you in the face.

As far as being a TROLL, why would you NOT advocate redeeming as per the LAW OF THE CODE? WHat is the downside in converting your frn's at the treasury, washington DC as provided in law.

COnvenience??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1589648


Well once again I must say that what works, works. No one is getting taken to court or getting frivolous filing charges, so they must be doing something right. Don't ya think. Just because you or him do not understand or agree with my interpretation of what the law says, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you'r right. But what I can tell you is that it works, for those no longer wanting to pay taxes. My bank at first cashed my checks with the a fore mentioned signature, then I presented a notice to the bank that I wanted all transactions through my account done in redeemed frn's has date stamp it and sign it (a teller) She then faxed it to the legal department. I later received a phone call and they said they could not accept this type of endorsement. But the very next day I was back in the back and they accepted a check with this endorsement. I sent the date stamped notice I had presented off to my case file with an article III court, entered my demand for the record. That's all I need do, because it is my demand that I can prove that I made that counts not whether the bank honors it or not. It is/was my intent to no longer endorse fractional reserve banking as practice by the fed using FRN's. Contract ending, no longer an agent or a bank, and if not one of those then someone using FRN's illegally according to the laws a for quoted. There is ample proof that the process works and if you have read any part of the thread you should have come across the saving to suitors forum which goes into great detail in regards to redeeming frn's by many more knowledgeable then me with posted proof that the redemption process works. I suggest you check it out "savingtosuitorsclub". I presented the vids and lots of information you can take advantage of it or not. Not my problem and I'm not going to do your homework for you. Read the thread and visit the suitors club. regard sk
Anonymous Coward
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09/03/2012 10:02 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized.

This to me says that anyone handling frn's is either an agent or a bank. Since most people and banks handle frn's that makes the banks part of the fed and you can redeem your frn's their and this relieve yourself also the contractual obligations of being a federal reserve agent and bond by their rules, ie laws. But just remember you are volunteering to use the frn's and this it makes the tax you pay for using private money voluntary, just as they claim. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


^^^WARNING SPECIOUS REASONING ZONE ABOVE...LOL^^^


In order for your assertion that local commercial banks you claim hold the power of redemption to stand up, YOU must PROVE they are AGENTS of the FED, as it relates to the redemption process identified in 12USC411.

Yet another strike against your ASSUMPTION is that national bank charters are granted by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (a branch of the US TREASURY) which receives and processes applications to open and operate NATIONAL BANKS. The OCC also Operates the FDIC and is responsible for auditing the ongoing operations of the bank.

[link to www.occ.treas.gov]

Charters for STATE BANKS (ie, banks which operate only within the geographical limitations of a particular state) are made and granted by that STATE.

COMMERCIAL BANK CHARTERS are granted or rejected by the STATE and OCC/US Treasury Department.

It has already been demonstrated that the FED is a private organization, owned by its STOCKHOLDERS. That the FED's stockholders are COMMERCIAL BANKS does not, in and of itself, constitute AGENCY...just as a person being a STOCKHOLDER of GM does not authorize that person to ACT as GM's agent in their day-to-day business matters. Therefore, there is no DIRECT LINK between the public/governmental entities which have the power to create or dissolve banks and the PRIVATE FED, which supplies those commercial (state and nationally regulated) businesses with their PRODUCT...private credit notes...used by the COMMERCIAL BANKS...and for which the FED receives a FEE.

Since it is now demonstrated that commercial banks are not a part of the FED, that COMMERCIAL BANKS are separate, private entities which derive their authority and existence from the applicable non-FED public/state/national governmental regulatory agencies...

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT COMMERCIAL BANKS ARE AUTHORIZED TO REDEEM FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES AS AGENTS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE?

Since national banks are created and regulated by the OCC, a United States governmental agency, it would be a more logical argument to assert that the COMMERCIAL BANKS were acting as redemption agents for the US TREASURY, since they are, at least indirectly, creatures deriving their power of existence from the US TREASURY. Note however, that 12USC411 SPECIFICALLY authorizes ONLY the US Treasury WASHINGTON DC (physical location) and says NOTHING about AUTHORIZED AGENTS of the Treasury. Thus, there is CLEARLY only one PHYSICAL REDEMPTION LOCATION FOR THE US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, and the GOVERNMENT/TREASURY has no authorization to assign AGENCY for the redemption of PRIVATE CREDIT fiat.

Now, the only remaining question is whether a FEDERAL RESERVE BANK, as used in 12USC411 is the same entity, and transparently intechangeable with COMMERCIAL BANKS, which are specifically NOT mentioned in the language of 12USC411.

Does using the product of the FED in their daily business automatically confer AGENCY on the private company using that product?

If McDonalds acquires napkins for use in their business, does that relationship between McDonalds and their vendors automatically allow McDonalds to act as the napkin suppliers AGENT?

Clearly this is not the case; AGENCY would only exist if there were a contract in place AUTHORIZING McDonalds to act as the napkin suppliers AGENT...the fact ALONE that McDonalds uses napkins DOES NOT demonstrate AGENCY.

This explanation should be clear enough for even the dimmest-wit to either offer up PROOF to back up their previous assertions, or at least have the dignity to cut-and-run as 708 has apparently done.

Seeker, it is up to you to carry the burden of ignorance forward or modify your procedure to address the letter of the law in the redemption process to prevent others from the train-wreck you and 708 are promoting here. Keep in mind that not all of those following this thread are scared off by huff-and-puff bluster, ad hominem attacks or other tactics which do not address the meat of the point in question.

12USC411 Provides REMEDY as it is written. Why pretend otherwise?
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
From 12USC411

They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

List of Federal Reserve BANKS and BRANCHES:

(13) Federal RESERVE BANKS
[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

(24) Federal RESERVE BRANCH LOCATIONS
[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

Have YOU been making your claims for redemption at one of these banks or branches per 12USC411?

IS YOUR BANK ON THESE LISTS?

If not, you are not following the law and your claims are NULL AND VOID.
Anonymous Coward
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09/03/2012 11:03 AM
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Definition of FEDERAL RESERVE AGENT

the director who is designated by the board of governors of the Federal Reserve system as chairman of the board of directors of a Federal Reserve bank and who acts as official representative of the board of governors to the bank
Anonymous Coward
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09/03/2012 11:19 AM
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From 12USC411

They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

List of Federal Reserve BANKS and BRANCHES:

(13) Federal RESERVE BANKS
[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

(24) Federal RESERVE BRANCH LOCATIONS
[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

Have YOU been making your claims for redemption at one of these banks or branches per 12USC411?

IS YOUR BANK ON THESE LISTS?

If not, you are not following the law and your claims are NULL AND VOID.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22994005


you little federal reserve agent you ..


Police Officer trying to arraign me "If I were to send you a letter , what NAME would I send it to" .....

Its a demand ... not a claim, and not an argument ..


its game set match and your trade is the first to go
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09/03/2012 11:21 AM
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From 12USC411

They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

List of Federal Reserve BANKS and BRANCHES:

(13) Federal RESERVE BANKS
[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

(24) Federal RESERVE BRANCH LOCATIONS
[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

Have YOU been making your claims for redemption at one of these banks or branches per 12USC411?

IS YOUR BANK ON THESE LISTS?

If not, you are not following the law and your claims are NULL AND VOID.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22994005


Whats gonna suck is whne everyone under 35 realizes what endorsement is ...

gonna suck for you
seeker2

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09/03/2012 11:21 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Tell all that to the IRS who is presently giving refunds and not going after people who redeemed frn's at their local bank. So while you may think that I'm doing it wrong. I know at least 100 people who are currently doing this and some have been doing it for 4 to 5 years. So present all the links definitions you want. I'm seeing David's method of redeeming lawful money work. If your trying to convince me, don't bother as I see it working daily. sk

But I do appreciate your do diligence.
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Tell all that to the IRS who is presently giving refunds and not going after people who redeemed frn's at their local bank. So while you may think that I'm doing it wrong. I know at least 100 people who are currently doing this and some have been doing it for 4 to 5 years. So present all the links definitions you want. I'm seeing David's method of redeeming lawful money work. If your trying to convince me, don't bother as I see it working daily. sk

But I do appreciate your do diligence.
 Quoting: seeker2


bumphfyoda Much Love
seeker2

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09/03/2012 11:27 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
What you also seem to be saying is the the only authorized use of FRN's then is by a few fed banks and an Agent (its says agents) So I guess that would make everyone else using them a criminal. So before you go to any court for anything your already guilty and fraud. lol sk
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09/03/2012 11:30 AM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Yeah, try this bullshit and see how it works out for you. Hope you have someone to visit you in jail...

I was a Banker (reformed), so I know all about this shit, British Maritime Law, the Fed, etc., the problem is, the judges you will be appearing in front of have no clue what the fuck you are talking about when you bring this shit up, and they will throw your ass UNDER THE JAIL!!!

Not saying it's legal, just saying that's the way it is...

The only way a tax protest would ever work in this country is if you could get Millions of people to go along with it, and stay organized...and I do mean millions, not thousands, not tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands...

Too few and they'll just throw everybody in jail!!!
 Quoting: Saddletramp


One should never talk of impossibility to the one who is busy doing the work. The one doing the work since 2007 doesent have time for that shit anyway. I redeem and am Sui Juris. I respect your posts on alot of other doom man, but just because you know stories about halfassers getting taken down, doesent demean my success. I might politely suggest you are out of your depth here. You are aware of something sure. In that field of knowledge, some of us have 1000 hrs or more research, docs filed, remedy applied, and success at preserving our liberty on the land AT LAW. If someone elses failure were a good reason not to try, we would never have industrialized as a society.
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09/03/2012 01:10 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Definition of FEDERAL RESERVE AGENT

the director who is designated by the board of governors of the Federal Reserve system as chairman of the board of directors of a Federal Reserve bank and who acts as official representative of the board of governors to the bank
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22994005


So it is now clear that an Agent of the Federal Reserve is NOT a commercial bank!

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 grants the FED with MONOPOLY power to issue Federal Reserve Notes, a system of PRIVATE (Debt Based) Credit which, by fiat (or decree) is LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE. This endorsement found on all Federal Reserve Notes makes 708's contention that their use by ANYONE, free man or bound, is precluded by 12USC411 and, further that such use AUTOMATICALLY makes the USER and AUTOMATIC AGENT of the FED and thus subject to federal taxes ABSURD. THERE IS NO SUCH NEXUS.

The Federal Reserve Corporation, acting under congressional charter by authority of The Federal Reserve Act of 1913, is located in WASHINGTON, District of Columbia and thus subject to Federal Laws and Acts.

The AGENTS of the Federal Reserve, as defined above, are the 12 REGIONAL Federal Reserve DISTRICTS, each of them which are separate corporations and each of which are authorized to exclusively act as AGENTS of the Federal Reserve in their geographically defined districts:

[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

The ONLY REDEMPTION as authorized by 12USC411 MUST take place at a FEDERAL RESERVE BANK or BRANCH identified in the links provided earlier. COMMERCIAL BANKS, as SEEKER and 708 claim, are NOT AUTHORIZED to redeem FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES!

Thus their claims to avoid paying TAXES legally by "redeeming" FRN's through COMMERCIAL BANKS is NULL and VOID and a COMPLETE FRAUD.

Check and Mate!
seeker2

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09/03/2012 01:31 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Well I guess this means you won't be redeeming any FRN's and will keep paying taxes, enjoy.

As for myself I will continue to redeem FRN's on demand at my local bank, and not incur any tax liabilities.

I understand your logic, but I think it is flawed. sk
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09/03/2012 01:33 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Tell all that to the IRS who is presently giving refunds and not going after people who redeemed frn's at their local bank. So while you may think that I'm doing it wrong. I know at least 100 people who are currently doing this and some have been doing it for 4 to 5 years. So present all the links definitions you want. I'm seeing David's method of redeeming lawful money work. If your trying to convince me, don't bother as I see it working daily. sk

But I do appreciate your do diligence.
 Quoting: seeker2


I do DUE diligence because I have seen, over and over, how DANGEROUS half-baked "truths" and shoddy research have landed well meaning and sincere people into great difficulties and great peril.

This thread is a perfect example of that. Someone has found a "truth" relating to the difference between elastic private credit and inelastic public money but FAILED in the execution of how that conversion MUST be made!

I have laid out in great detail why I am right, and you are wrong, and you STILL refuse to admit your methodology is a FAILURE. Keep in mind that IF you are wrong, And IF the unwary attempt to avoid paying taxes based on your FLAWED methodology, there will be serious consequences! Do you want to be responsible for leading others astray?

You have offered up your PROOF that you are correct by offering up anecdotal "evidence" that you, and "hundreds of (unnamed) others" have not yet been harassed by the IRS. I have already offered an explanation for that from the standpoint that the presumption within the IRS system is that the taxpayer has filed a VALID RETURN...based on the fact that the TAXPAYER has also signed an AFFIDAVIT, UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY...that everything on the return is TRUTHFUL and ACCURATE. The fact that the IRS has not yet challenged your return..and the return of "hundreds of others" doesn't mean shit in an organization processing 100 million or so returns per year. Further, consider that there is really no "cost" for the processing of returns to the IRS, since the currency is created out of thin air, but the REAL COST is in the exposure to civil and criminal sanctions when the challenge is made against the taxpayer, and the taxpayer attempts to mount a defense based on your limp wristed assumptions and "proofs". Seriously, how far do you think that is going to get you in an administrative court system RUN by the IRS and with the power to levy!

(From my earlier post: the particularly WEAK conclusion that because the IRS is issuing "refunds", the methodology MUST be correct under law. This is a very dangerous, and totally unfounded, conclusion. You must realize that IRS returns and refunds are almost completely processed automatically. The computers assume correct "voluntary compliance" and process accordingly. In other words, if you SAY you are owed a refund, the IRS will give it to you. Doesn't mean anything more than that's how the system works. However, if the ratios between line items trigger a flag, it will go through a human review process...which might take months or years.)

Complete and Utter BULLSHIT. Particularly when the LAWFUL REMEDY is so clearly spelled out in the code! WHy in heavens name would one deviate from what the law so clearly and expressly states?

If you intend to do the redemption, then stay within the bounds of the DUTY imposed upon you! Redeem through the TREASURY or FEDERAL RESERVE BANK or its AUTHORIZED AGENT. You now have the proper address and contact information to do so.

As far as the comments that I am some AGENT (lol)of the government or FED, only the most ignorant would disregard my PROOF as demonstrated and ignore the TRUTH. You and 708 have repeatedly rejected anecdotal evidence from former bankers and "someones uncle" but resort to the same tactics when YOU fail to prove your assertions.

I am not trying to change YOUR mind, since you appear to lack the capacity to assimilate contrary positions or interpretations, or defend what you claim with REAL PROOF. However, to the TRUE seekers who are coming here to try and help themselves I have dedicated my research.

Note also that it took all of a few hours to punch holes in your redemption claims
Anonymous Coward
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09/03/2012 01:50 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Well I guess this means you won't be redeeming any FRN's and will keep paying taxes, enjoy.

As for myself I will continue to redeem FRN's on demand at my local bank, and not incur any tax liabilities.

I understand your logic, but I think it is flawed. sk
 Quoting: seeker2


Seeker, I haven't even begun to research the connection between the use of federal reserve notes and the "DUTY" to pay Federal taxes...if, in fact there IS one.

Regardless of any connection between private credit usage and ones obligation to file a tax return, I believe that redemption of FRN's for US NOTES is a MUCH larger, and more important issue than taxes alone.

From my research, it is clear that the issuance and USE of PUBLIC FIAT instead of PRIVATE DEBT is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE facing Americans...now or EVER.

Many people know that the entire proceeds of the 1040 taxes go to paying interest on the public debt!

Of course, paying interest on the PUBLIC DEBT is necessary because the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is BORROWING the deficit amounts from the FEDERAL RESERVE at interest! Eliminate the need to borrow from the FED by issuing US NOTES and the need for the 1040 tax return is ALSO eliminated!

My point is that you and 708 have done a great service alerting many to the power of redemption, but then fucked up by providing an incorrect path of private credit redemption! You will see that if your redemption process starts getting some significant attention due to increasing numbers participating, the IRS will most certainly focus appropriate resources towards "correcting" this "misunderstanding"...it's really just a question of numbers and time. Go look at the IRS website and read about the various schemes that people were absolutely sure would work...and all their followers whose proof of the veracity of the claims stemed from the fact that "others were doing it and it worked for them".

What ultimately happens then is that the ENTIRE ISSUE of redemption will be tainted and the true power not realized..."oh yeah, redemption....someone tried that a few years ago and the IRS went after them..." How many times have you heard THAT?

If people were educated as to the true story of public money vs private debt as well as the correct method of redemption, the issue of 1040 taxation would go away for all...and the power to coin and regulate the value of money restored back to congress where it belongs!
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09/03/2012 01:57 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
What you also seem to be saying is the the only authorized use of FRN's then is by a few fed banks and an Agent (its says agents) So I guess that would make everyone else using them a criminal. So before you go to any court for anything your already guilty and fraud. lol sk
 Quoting: seeker2


Seeker, I have been extremely specific and documented my statements from the source law or Federal Reserve...thus I cannot "seem" to be saying ANYTHING. You do not have to read between the lines whatsoever.

Having said that, you may now show me where I made ANYTHING even remotely resembling what you have claimed. 12USC411 talks about the fact that the FED, and its AGENTS are authorized to issue FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES in any quantity they so desire, and provides the means to OPT OUT of using FEDERAL RESERVE notes.
I also referred to the fact that EACH Federal reserve note clearly states that is is LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

I am baffled by your interpretation of what I "seem to be saying"
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09/03/2012 01:57 PM
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Re: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul
Definition of FEDERAL RESERVE AGENT

the director who is designated by the board of governors of the Federal Reserve system as chairman of the board of directors of a Federal Reserve bank and who acts as official representative of the board of governors to the bank
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22994005


So it is now clear that an Agent of the Federal Reserve is NOT a commercial bank!

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 grants the FED with MONOPOLY power to issue Federal Reserve Notes, a system of PRIVATE (Debt Based) Credit which, by fiat (or decree) is LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE. This endorsement found on all Federal Reserve Notes makes 708's contention that their use by ANYONE, free man or bound, is precluded by 12USC411 and, further that such use AUTOMATICALLY makes the USER and AUTOMATIC AGENT of the FED and thus subject to federal taxes ABSURD. THERE IS NO SUCH NEXUS.

The Federal Reserve Corporation, acting under congressional charter by authority of The Federal Reserve Act of 1913, is located in WASHINGTON, District of Columbia and thus subject to Federal Laws and Acts.

The AGENTS of the Federal Reserve, as defined above, are the 12 REGIONAL Federal Reserve DISTRICTS, each of them which are separate corporations and each of which are authorized to exclusively act as AGENTS of the Federal Reserve in their geographically defined districts:

[link to www.federalreserve.gov]

The ONLY REDEMPTION as authorized by 12USC411 MUST take place at a FEDERAL RESERVE BANK or BRANCH identified in the links provided earlier. COMMERCIAL BANKS, as SEEKER and 708 claim, are NOT AUTHORIZED to redeem FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES!

Thus their claims to avoid paying TAXES legally by "redeeming" FRN's through COMMERCIAL BANKS is NULL and VOID and a COMPLETE FRAUD.

Check and Mate!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22994005


Again and for the record, I NEVER have posted that REDEMPTION takes place at my local bank.

Again and for the record, as already posted by me in this thread, the DEMAND is made on the RECORD with every bank transaction via RESTRICTED ENDORSEMENT and DEMAND for lawful money per 12-USC 411.

Again and for the record YOU cannot access the red sealed US Bank NOTES.

Again, and for the record, US BANK notes are FIAT money, while backed with 300 million in GOLD coin, they are not REDEEMABLE for those coins. Therefore, FRN/US Treasury notes found on the FACE of every currently issued NOTE above the 1 and 2 dollar serve "essentially" the same purpose as the US Bank notes (red seal) did, being non-redeemable in Gold or silver coin AND being FIAT currency.

Since you do not believe that LINES and boarders drawn on Paper have any legal and lawful meaning, I counter with the FACT that NATIONS are divided, legally and lawfully by NO MORE than LINES DRAWN ON PAPER.

A US Treasury note is BORDERED, BOXED IN, SEPARATED and DEFINED the exact same way.

As for me going to a Federal Reserve member bank and demanding the NOTES you have not proven can be obtained, I do not need to, since you have not proven YOU can and have done it. I never claimed you could, you are making the claim I have to do that to comply with 12 USC 411.

Nowhere in 12 USC 411 does it state where the DEMAND must be made, only the where the REDEMPTION of FRNS must be made, therefore, I choose to make my demand where the IRS is going to LOOK FOR MY DEMAND, on every single ENDORSEMENT I make anywhere I do business with a BANK or any other Government agency.

When you can prove you have gotten access to the US Bank notes you need so bad, then do it and bring your proof here for all to see.

The paper BANK notes are not the issue, the DEMAND for lawful money is the issue.

Again, I already posted, I cannot REDEEM SAID NOTES (FRNS) and never claimed I could. I have claimed it is NOT NEEDED, since the RECORD OF MY DEMAND FOR LAWFUL MONEY IS RECORED ON EVERY NON-ENDORSEMENT.

If you are too dense to understand where I stand on this issue, so be it, that is not my problem. I cannot spell it out any clearer and you are a waste of time. I respond only for those reading this thread who might think you have a valid point, when in fact, you do not.

The contract between Congress, the BANKS, the Treasury and the Federal Reserve is NOT my issue, nor is the actual, physical REDEMPTION of FRNS for some other NOTE, my DEMAND and non-endorsement of their corruption and extra constitutional agreement IS my issue.

The fact is, up to this day, the IRS has NEVER made a claim for income tax on ANYONE demanding per 12 USC 411, therefore, YOUR claim that t does not free myself of the OBLIGATION to pay said TAX is irrelevant, I think the IRS has the final say on who is doing it correctly, not YOU.

If you do have the right to say what the IRS does or does not do, you would not be here making such claims, you would be doing it in FEDERAL COURT.

There is all the proof I need that YOUR opinion means jack shit.

CHECK MATE THAT, Quatalooser.

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