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>>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<

 
Nacht im Walde
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>>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
There are so many theories about what will happen in 2012 that it is getting quite confusing... But did any of you ever wonder what happened at the beginning of the long-count calendar 3114 BC?

If there was a great change in climate causing perhaps snowstorms, great floods or droughts in the tropics where the Mayans/Olmecs lived would it be reasonable to conclude that this could have been a marker for the beginning of their calendar? [edit: on page 4 I clarify that the calendar and astronomical knowledge the Mayans had was inherited from an older civilization]

It turns out that there was such an event about 5,200 years ago. Almost an exact match with the beginning of the long-count calendar. But this change was not just a regional phenomenon, but rather a global one and caused tremendous changes in climate abruptly.

Surely it did not mean that their world was destroyed. But why did they end their calendar in 2012? Were they aware of some sort of cycle? Could this event repeat itself?

The answer can be found in precession:

"On a much vaster scale, the Long Count measures the precession of the equinoxes, a cycle of approximately 25,695 years. One fifth of the average precessional cycle is 5,139 years, very close to the 5,125-year Long Count (which when added up equals to 25,625 years). In Mesoamerican myth, there are five great ages, each one ending with a collapse of some sort. According to some Mesoamerican myths, we are living today in the last years of the fifth and last age, the closure of a cycle of five segments of the precession cycle. Given the simple technology available to them, the ancient Mesoamerican astrologer/astronomers did some amazing work. Not only did they estimate the length of the precession cycle, but they also anchored it with a remarkable alignment, the meeting of the winter solstice with the plane of the Milky Way, the equator-like plane that runs through the center of our galaxy."

[on page 4 I further elaborate on this point]

[link to www.onereed.com]


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Glaciologist Lonnie Thompson worries that he may have found clues that show history repeating itself, and if he is right, the result could have important implications to modern society.

Thompson has spent his career trekking to the far corners of the world to find remote ice fields and then bring back cores drilled from their centers. Within those cores are the records of ancient climate from across the globe.

[link to researchnews.osu.edu]


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The latest expeditions to ice caps in the high, tropical Peruvian Andes Mountains by Ohio State University scientists may shed light on a mysterious global climate change they believe occurred more than 5,000 years ago.

[link to researchnews.osu.edu]


Lonnie checked the scientific literature and began to put the pieces of the puzzle together. He learned about several climate-related events that occurred about 5,200 years ago, suggesting a cooling period in the earth's history.

This was about the same time that advancing glaciers in the Alps region of Europe preserved the "Tyrolean Iceman" (or Otzi) who was discovered in 1991. Like Lonnie's moss plant, Otzi was covered quickly by deep snow and remained frozen from that time until he was exposed by the retreat of a glacier. The Iceman's remains have been radiocarbon dated to around 5,200 years ago.

Other natural recorders of past climate showing the same cool and wet period include: ice cores from Mt. Kilimanjaro in Africa, cave formations (stalactites and stalagmites) from Soreq Cave in southern Israel, and tree rings in both Ireland and England.

abruptsites

From a sociological point of view, this abrupt cooling event occurred just as hierarchical societies were forming in the Nile Valley and Mesopotamia. Some of the inner desert regions of Arabia were also abandoned at about the same time. Scientists believe that these shifts in social organization may have been, in part, an effort to adapt to more variable climate conditions, including cooler temperatures and changing water supplies.

[link to beyondpenguins.nsdl.org]



Could these changes also be responsible for a great migration from Taiwan 5,200 years ago? Perhaps people had to get innovative in order to survive, building ships that enabled them to escape the now uninhabitable lands.


[link to www.stonepages.com]

"Using these new technologies the Austronesians and Polynesians were able to rapidly spread through the Pacific in one of the greatest human migrations ever. This suggests that technological advances have played a major role in the spread of people throughout the world."


I find the evidence quite compelling that some global climate shift happened 5,200 years ago. Moreover, the fact that the long-count measures precession and is only of by about 14 years is extraordinary. However, the measurements are not completely accurate, making time a variable. Therefore the calendar "end date" could be off by some decades...

The question remains if the Mayans [or an earlier civilization] adapted their calendar to it and if they predicted a similar event in 2012 (+- some decades).

Last Edited by Nacht im Walde on 07/03/2012 04:58 PM
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Also, needs to be seriously considered; the fact that the Long Count Calendar is based upon 144000 day cycles.

2012 representing the completion of the 13th 144000 day cycle; recording 144000 day cycles began in 3113/3114 bc.

Then another 144000 day cycle would begin.

What needs to be delved into, as perhaps it very well does relate to the Apocalypse of John in some manner; is why 144000 day cycles ???

What were they truly mirroring or synchronizing with ... ??

Terrence McKenna derived his time wave zero model & 2012 thinking from the king wen sequence of the I Ching and entheogen exploration ...

Fu Xi gave us the I Ching, and lived about 5000 years ago ...
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Ba Gua
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Jose Arguelles & the whole 2012 movement has been so focused on 13 tone / 20 glyph 260 day cycle (tzolk'in) and his 13 moon calendar; when it is 144000 day baktun cycle we need to be considering.

... and why 144000 day cycles ???

has to do with above the 'galaxial level' (hunab ku)

and if you look into it, there were multiple interlinking calendars that they used down in meso-america; so who knows in all actuality everything they were keeping track of.

perhaps what we are seeing are the post flood fragments of antediluvian civilization, in meso-america; and perhaps China also.

Antediluvian
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Flood Legends From Around the World:
[link to www.nwcreation.net]

In 'Nahuatl' ...

''ATL'' means -WATER-

Nahuatl
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

ATLANTIS ?

Aztlan ...
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

This guy thinks not:

In fact, to be completely accurate, Aztlán makes no appearance whatsoever in Mayan sources; and I'm not at all sure that it forms a part of Toltec legendary history.

Thus, any supposed Aztlán-Atlán connection is rather tenuous at best.


[link to www.atlantisquest.com]

hf
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
very interesting indeed.

there definitely seems to be some sort of connection with all of these flood myths. We just don`t have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.

What on Earth Happened in 3200 BC?

another site I just stumbled upon:

[link to blog.world-mysteries.com]

According to Stanford research the earth changes that occurred were: “Some tentative conclusions: Millennial-scale warming terminates with a period of climatic disturbance (so-called Piora oscillation”) and flooding in the lower latitudes (Nile, Arizona, Morocco, Israel, Mesopotamia); abrupt cooling at higher latitudes, possibly related to oceanic effects, especially in Northern Europe, and an oscillation in sea levels followed by 10-15 ft. alluvial deposition in river valleys.”

What this means in plain English is that a major “disturbance” occurred – what is described as meteor or volcanic induced – that caused severe flooding (i.e., the flood?) all over the world (up to 300 feet high in some places), the temperatures in the north to suddenly turned very cold (according to the Hopi, when the 3rd World transitioned it “spun crazily out of control and froze in space”) as well as a major dying out of plant species across the globe.

Last Edited by Nacht im Walde on 01/21/2012 06:15 AM
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Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
In reviewing the geological data of the earth’s changes over the past 6,000 years, there is no other point in time with as many physical changes as what happened in a short 250 year period. So we can either assume that all these changes occurred over a 250 year period, or we can assume that radiocarbon isn’t 100% accurate and that all these events could have taken place in a very short period of time.

How short of time frame did all these changes occur? Was it really over 250 years? Or maybe just a few years … or even a day. What were the Maya referring to when they talked about the violent end of the 3rd world?

In analyzing the geological evidence, it looks like there was an unbelievable stormy and wet period, with flooding in all regions of the globe, with what appeared to be a violent shifting of the earth (i.e., rivers changing course), most likely caused by earthquakes, with documented volcanic eruptions in the Northern hemispheres.

The first thing that jumps out is the weather. From a geological standpoint, during the transition of the 3rd World into the 4th, a thousand years of wet weather started. There is evidence of wide scale intense storms and flooding. This is the time of the Mesopotamia flood, which is the biblical flood we’re all aware of and no matter how skeptical we are, there is geological proof of the flood. According to Stanford research:
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
OP, there are 2 different calendars. The one that allegedly "ends" in 2012(experts say the actual date is Oct. 28, 2011), in known as the evolution of Consciousness and begins some 16.4 BILLION years ago. The one you speak of is a mere 5,200 year cycle and does indeed repeat itself. You need to learn the difference.

[link to www.timeline2012.net]
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
OP, there are 2 different calendars. The one that allegedly "ends" in 2012(experts say the actual date is Oct. 28, 2011), in known as the evolution of Consciousness and begins some 16.4 BILLION years ago. The one you speak of is a mere 5,200 year cycle and does indeed repeat itself. You need to learn the difference.

[link to www.timeline2012.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1260971


But doesn`t the 5,200 year cycle end on Dec 21st 2012 (Oct 28th 2011)?
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
it doesn`t get any better than this. directly from Stanford:

c) Dead Sea levels rose 300 feet at 3200 BC. The Jordan River must have been a tropical paradise.

d) Ice core oxygen isotope ratio; the higher the curve, the warmer the temperature. What was the big freeze-up at 5000 years BP?

e) Greenland Dye 3 oxygen isotope ratio. Minimum value between 2000 and 8000 cal yrs BP occurs just before 5000 yrs BP. Data from National Snow and Ice Data Center. A large acid peak at 3150 BC is suggestive of a volcanic event. For additional ice data from the southern hemisphere click here.

f) Data from Belfast 7272 year oak tree ring chronology; (f) is an index of the tree ring narrowness, corresponding to cold weather in Ireland. The peak in (g) at about 3150 BC followed by the maximum tree and site sample size suggest a major climatic event at this time. Similar sudden increase in swamp oak (mooreichen, still used to make furniture in Germany) shows up at 5100 BP on the Danube. Much of this information comes from the oaks of Ireland.


[link to www.stanford.edu]

Last Edited by Nacht im Walde on 01/21/2012 06:15 AM
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Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
bump for more thoughts
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
OP, there are 2 different calendars. The one that allegedly "ends" in 2012(experts say the actual date is Oct. 28, 2011), in known as the evolution of Consciousness and begins some 16.4 BILLION years ago. The one you speak of is a mere 5,200 year cycle and does indeed repeat itself. You need to learn the difference.

[link to www.timeline2012.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1260971


But doesn`t the 5,200 year cycle end on Dec 21st 2012 (Oct 28th 2011)?
 Quoting: Nacht im Walde


Check out this explanation from Lungold and Calleman.
Very good analysis inhmo.

[link to www.mayanmajix.com]

Note the end date of the 9th wave is on 28OCT11...
El Chupacabra

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
bump
Anonymous coward
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
I have been reading a book with some of the same ideas.
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
bump
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
Vendetta

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Take look at this and see if you can see where I'm going with this..

Thread: Possible Mayan's " New Beginning" Theory

Maybe no one remembers what really happened at the beginning of the long count calendar, which is why no one kept records of such events in that time.
Jesus is coming... Quick! Look busy
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Take look at this and see if you can see where I'm going with this..

Thread: Possible Mayan's " New Beginning" Theory

Maybe no one remembers what really happened at the beginning of the long count calendar, which is why no one kept records of such events in that time.
 Quoting: Vendetta


interesting theory. I`ve heard of similar ideas, explaining effects on the brain. However, I am not quite convinced that Nibiru, if it exists, will be around any time soon. We would notice it`s approach e.g. by the disturbance of the planets orbits. But why couldn`t a electric field (which is naturally also a magnetic field) account for some of these effects?
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
New Age Messiah

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
OP, there are 2 different calendars. The one that allegedly "ends" in 2012(experts say the actual date is Oct. 28, 2011), in known as the evolution of Consciousness and begins some 16.4 BILLION years ago. The one you speak of is a mere 5,200 year cycle and does indeed repeat itself. You need to learn the difference.

[link to www.timeline2012.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1260971


Anyone know the history and archaeological authenticity of the supposed 16.4 billion year calendar?
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09/24/2011 02:57 PM
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
bump
Anonymous Coward
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09/24/2011 03:08 PM
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
There are so many theories about what will happen in 2012 that it is getting quite confusing... But did any of you ever wonder what happened at the beginning of the long-count calendar 3114 BC?

If there was a great change in climate causing perhaps snowstorms, great floods or droughts in the tropics where the Mayans lived would it be reasonable to conclude that this could have been a marker for the beginning of their calendar?

It turns out that there was such an event about 5,200 years ago. Almost an exact match with the beginning of the long-count calendar. But this change was not just a regional phenomenon, but rather a global one and caused tremendous changes in climate abruptly.

Surely it did not mean that their world was destroyed. But why did they end their calendar in 2012? Were they aware of some sort of cycle? Could this event repeat itself?


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Glaciologist Lonnie Thompson worries that he may have found clues that show history repeating itself, and if he is right, the result could have important implications to modern society.

Thompson has spent his career trekking to the far corners of the world to find remote ice fields and then bring back cores drilled from their centers. Within those cores are the records of ancient climate from across the globe.

[link to researchnews.osu.edu]


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The latest expeditions to ice caps in the high, tropical Peruvian Andes Mountains by Ohio State University scientists may shed light on a mysterious global climate change they believe occurred more than 5,000 years ago.

[link to researchnews.osu.edu]


Lonnie checked the scientific literature and began to put the pieces of the puzzle together. He learned about several climate-related events that occurred about 5,200 years ago, suggesting a cooling period in the earth's history.

This was about the same time that advancing glaciers in the Alps region of Europe preserved the "Tyrolean Iceman" (or Otzi) who was discovered in 1991. Like Lonnie's moss plant, Otzi was covered quickly by deep snow and remained frozen from that time until he was exposed by the retreat of a glacier. The Iceman's remains have been radiocarbon dated to around 5,200 years ago.

Other natural recorders of past climate showing the same cool and wet period include: ice cores from Mt. Kilimanjaro in Africa, cave formations (stalactites and stalagmites) from Soreq Cave in southern Israel, and tree rings in both Ireland and England.

:abruptsites:

From a sociological point of view, this abrupt cooling event occurred just as hierarchical societies were forming in the Nile Valley and Mesopotamia. Some of the inner desert regions of Arabia were also abandoned at about the same time. Scientists believe that these shifts in social organization may have been, in part, an effort to adapt to more variable climate conditions, including cooler temperatures and changing water supplies.

[link to beyondpenguins.nsdl.org]



Could these changes also be responsible for a great migration from Taiwan 5,200 years ago? Perhaps people had to get innovative in order to survive, building ships that enabled them to escape the now uninhabitable lands.


[link to www.stonepages.com]

"Using these new technologies the Austronesians and Polynesians were able to rapidly spread through the Pacific in one of the greatest human migrations ever. This suggests that technological advances have played a major role in the spread of people throughout the world."


So in conclusion I find the evidence quite compelling that some global catastrophy happened 5,200 years ago. The question remains if the Mayans adapted their calendar to it and if they predicted a similar event in 2012.
 Quoting: Nacht im Walde


3113 B.C. is not that far off from the date of 3545 B.C. that researcher Barry Setterfield has set for the Flood of Noah. It is also curious that 'standard' carbon dating techniques place the archival datings of the clay tablets of Sumer around 3100 to 3500 B.C.

Something that was in fact World Changing (as in the world of mankind) may well have occurred around that 3100-3600 B.C. time span.

We need to be aware that CME from the Sun can significantly change the Carbon 12 to Carbon 14 ratios, as can nuclear reactor meltdowns, like Fukushima's. Such modulations by external sources either man made or Solar will in fact throw off all carbon 14 datings especially if their occurrence has been heretofore unknown and hence unaccounted for. In such cases human calendar keeping and 'dear diary' keeping of written history will be more accurate as far as they go than any radiometric technique.

How long (in terms of atomic clock seconds) has each and every individual year of the past 10,000 orbits of the Earth around the Sun really in fact been? Who knows, but there is in fact little reason to believe this value has been a total constant and fixed over that time.

The Dawn of the Space age and its continuation, and the findings that we as a race have been able to gleam from it should have caused us to forever through of anything at all that resembles the 19th Century doctrines of Uniformitarianism, even in our archeological researches.

And yet, that Uniformitarian mindset still permeates the mass mind set.
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Edit: "... should have caused us to forever throw out anything..."
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
And futhermore, if the speed of light in the vacuum of free space is not a constant after all, then we once again have to ask the question as to the constancy of the radiometric decay rates.. and it has been challenged that these radiometric decay rates are not quite the universal constant that early 20th Century Physics had held them to be... that they can in fact be changed by a number of different forces and techniques.

If so, this even changes the radiometric dating techniques used to date the 'oldest rocks on Earth'...

What seems so certain as to these things in your high-school or college classes now is once again considerably up in the air... again, Science advances one funeral at a time.
Dynamitrios

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Long count ends on the 28th October 2011...
a free man chooses, a slave obeys
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
And futhermore, if the speed of light in the vacuum of free space is not a constant after all, then we once again have to ask the question as to the constancy of the radiometric decay rates.. and it has been challenged that these radiometric decay rates are not quite the universal constant that early 20th Century Physics had held them to be... that they can in fact be changed by a number of different forces and techniques.

If so, this even changes the radiometric dating techniques used to date the 'oldest rocks on Earth'...

What seems so certain as to these things in your high-school or college classes now is once again considerably up in the air... again, Science advances one funeral at a time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1456261


yeah, this is a really interesting discovery which has been ignored so far by the MSM, because as you pointed out it would question the whole datings made so far.

here is the article for anyone that missed it:
[link to news.discovery.com]

I used to think that science had made all the big discoveries already, but now it seems there is one discovery made after another that throws the old paradigm out of the window... what an amazing time to live in!
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bargoose

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Hang on, wasn't Noah's ark and flood about 5000 years ago?

Everything seems to be fitting into place.
On the path of least resistance
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Hang on, wasn't Noah's ark and flood about 5000 years ago?

Everything seems to be fitting into place.
 Quoting: bargoose

We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
very good post. just look on the last page of the "dresden kodex" severe climate changes with end of long term cycle.
Nacht im Walde (OP)

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
from the first article I posted:

Evidence shows that around 5,200 years ago, solar output first dropped precipitously and then surged over a short period. It is this huge solar energy oscillation that Thompson believes may have triggered the climate change he sees in all those records.

That just fits perfectly with recent observations of the prolongued Solar minimum of solar cycle 24!
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. - Anais Nin
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
This 5,000 year cycle theory certainly rings true to me. If you go back 5,000 years before the Flood this takes you to 8000 BC, the time when the last glacial period ended - (I think, I'm no scientist).
soylentsimian

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Mesopotamia and Egypt were united for the first time in 3200 bc. Did they unite to overcome a common threat?

[link to www.stanford.edu]
...for evil to prevail, good men must do nothing...

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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
~5200 years ago is also when the 1st work at Stonehenge began.
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
very interesting indeed.

there definitely seems to be some sort of connection with all of these flood myths. We just don`t have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.

What on Earth Happened in 3200 BC?

another site I just stumbled upon:

[link to blog.world-mysteries.com]

According to Stanford research the earth changes that occurred were: “Some tentative conclusions: Millennial-scale warming terminates with a period of climatic disturbance (so-called Piora oscillation”) and flooding in the lower latitudes (Nile, Arizona, Morocco, Israel, Mesopotamia); abrupt cooling at higher latitudes, possibly related to oceanic effects, especially in Northern Europe, and an oscillation in sea levels followed by 10-15 ft. alluvial deposition in river valleys.”

What this means in plain English is that a major “disturbance” occurred – what is described as meteor or volcanic induced – that caused severe flooding (i.e., the flood?) all over the world (up to 300 feet high in some places), the temperatures in the north to suddenly turned very cold (according to the Hopi, when the 3rd World transitioned it “spun crazily out of control and froze in space”) as well as a major dying out of plant species across the globe.
 Quoting: Nacht im Walde


this was the time when moses slip the seat, and the arche noah was build ?
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
Hang on, wasn't Noah's ark and flood about 5000 years ago?

Everything seems to be fitting into place.
 Quoting: bargoose

 Quoting: Nacht im Walde


yes it should be
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Germany
01/21/2012 07:57 AM
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Re: >>History repeating itself? What happened at the BEGINNING of the mayan long-count calendar?<<
the upcoming "shift" is supposed to be a singular point in the evolution of humanity and the universe so it doesn't matter what happened 5200 years ago because it will be altogether different this time.

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