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SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/08/2011 10:40 PM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
looks like we have some plasma lift off from the Filament on the South East section of the sun (8 oclock area)
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: NiNzrez


Hey NiNzrez.....Did you see the flare yesterday?

I wanted your opinion about possible effects

for April 11 on the earth? Thanks
zacksavage
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04/08/2011 10:44 PM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
looks like we have some plasma lift off from the Filament on the South East section of the sun (8 oclock area)
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: NiNzrez


Plasma,...


ohyeah


Z
In time we hate that which we often fear.

--- William Shakespeare
Anonymous Coward
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04/08/2011 11:10 PM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Look at this...

What's happening on far side of sun...

[link to theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/08/2011 11:26 PM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
So?
 Quoting: ~Andariel~


You sure are the all mighty one of infinite knowledge..I can smell your negativity in every thread..You really get off on this shit you post.
Anonymous Coward
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04/08/2011 11:31 PM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
So?
 Quoting: ~Andariel~


You sure are the all mighty one of infinite knowledge..I can smell your negativity in every thread..You really get off on this shit you post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1008598


That poster is a bitter young obese male that posts from their mother's basement in soiled underwear. He longs to be a powerful female warrior from his comic book collection.

From that sad perspective everything in life is bullshit.

I am sure you understand.
Anonymous Coward
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04/08/2011 11:32 PM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Patrick Geryl

CME every 84 days until 2012 for pole shift.

Hasn't happened exactly every 84 days like he said.

But the solar activity is here, if not more.

spock
Anonymous Coward
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04/08/2011 11:37 PM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
So?
 Quoting: ~Andariel~


You sure are the all mighty one of infinite knowledge..I can smell your negativity in every thread..You really get off on this shit you post.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1008598


That poster is a bitter young obese male that posts from their mother's basement in soiled underwear. He longs to be a powerful female warrior from his comic book collection.

From that sad perspective everything in life is bullshit.

I am sure you understand.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1334283


What the????
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 12:11 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
:proxalt0408:

The CCMC Connectivity Product utilizes several resources to create a single display that indicates the Earth's foot point location on the Sun along with any solar active regions and their corresponding proximity to the Earth's connected foot point location. The CorHel WSA-ENLIL combination of corona and heliosphere models provides the magnetic field-line connectivity in the heliosphere. Any location in the heliosphere can be traced back to the corona and the Sun's surface.

Produced by NASA. Solar active regions provided by USAF and NOAA. The background solar disk images provided by SOHO EIT instrument.


As you can see from this image our magnetic field-line is connected to the Sun near Region 1184 today.
 Quoting: tomasgod1


excellent post
gives everyone a better idea on how the positions of the Flares and CME's effect earth
 Quoting: NiNzrez


I still dont understand the correlation between what this image is showing and the earth. sorry :-/
 Quoting: nestack


The Earth is connected to the Sun by a magnetic field line. In the picture you can see the Earth on the Sun. This is where the Earth is connected to the Sun by that field line today. The area of connection changes over time. Because we are connected to a sunspot region today there is a "Proximity alert". If there was a flare/CME from this area today we could see a quick massive surge of protons into the Earths Ionosphere via that field line.
 Quoting: tomasgod1


I still don't understand, exactly how is a picture of the earth on the sun? I still don't get it. It would help if you could see the continents or if the longitudes and latitudes were marked. Are the "field lines" the white lines?
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 12:24 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
nestack

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04/09/2011 12:37 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
...


excellent post
gives everyone a better idea on how the positions of the Flares and CME's effect earth
 Quoting: NiNzrez


I still dont understand the correlation between what this image is showing and the earth. sorry :-/
 Quoting: nestack


The Earth is connected to the Sun by a magnetic field line. In the picture you can see the Earth on the Sun. This is where the Earth is connected to the Sun by that field line today. The area of connection changes over time. Because we are connected to a sunspot region today there is a "Proximity alert". If there was a flare/CME from this area today we could see a quick massive surge of protons into the Earths Ionosphere via that field line.
 Quoting: tomasgod1


I still don't understand, exactly how is a picture of the earth on the sun? I still don't get it. It would help if you could see the continents or if the longitudes and latitudes were marked. Are the "field lines" the white lines?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1034800


+1...i dont understand where the earth and "field lines" come in. Unfortunately, i am still a bit confused but thanks TOMASGOD for trying to explain it hf

Last Edited by nestack on 04/09/2011 12:38 AM
Mim
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04/09/2011 01:00 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1168900


Is this an X party? (NOT PX). the first X in x years is worth celebrating...

What was the old 70's tv series??, um Welcome back, hehe

Enough of my sill abstract mood, back to brain waving.

I want to call out for some resident experts and fellow sun loving enthusiasts and ponder a question about solar cycles and.

We only have a short history of detailed recording through the solar min and max waves. Sure we have counted spots for a long time, but not the cosmic, neutron, proton, xray or electrical flux's, which is the interesting part.

From my own observations in regards to the min --> max ---> min wave (I see it like waves in an ocean) the following seems to be a pattern.

Directly after minimum there is a small period of little to no activity, then as we get about half way between min and max (year 6) there is a steady and slow increase in activity (its like a tidal surge). In the last 20-25% (2-3 years prior to peek) activity begins to surge upwards until the final peek time 1 year before and a drop of at roughly the same rate 1 year proceeding the apex.

Also in the larger cycle (observing multiple cycles through time) I have noticed the peek period for solar max compress into a smaller time gap. Further to that there seems to be a change in the behavior of the activity during the peek period. The surge in activity happens more rapidly and with greater violence.

See for this peek period (2012) solar max activity has only become prominent 1 year prior to peek so if my conclusions have any basis of fact I am assuming we are going to experience a more violent and active conditions than the last solar max period. And I can also only assume (going by this pattern) that solar max period this time round will also drop off equally as fast (after the apex).

So Perhaps every 12*12 cycles we have this type of period of activity, though cannot be sure of the longer cycle without more observation.

Oh and a side note -: this seasons solar peek will coincide with the final pair of the Venus transit (last one for our lifetime).

I would love to hear from others in regards to the cycles and what you have observed.
NiNzrez (OP)

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04/09/2011 01:22 AM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
looks like we have some plasma lift off from the Filament on the South East section of the sun (8 oclock area)
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: NiNzrez


in a bit of a hurry so i will go through comments in the morning
just popped in to give some updated STEREO photos of this latest filament lift off
it is earth directed according to STEREO
i will look into it more in the morning
B
[link to stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
A
[link to stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov]

the sun right now
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]

Last Edited by NiNzrez on 04/09/2011 01:23 AM
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Join Me On The GLP SOLAR WATCH Thread
Thread: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Thread: Magnetic Field Deficiency Syndrome- MAKING US SICK **MUST READ***

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Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 02:14 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1168900


Hey you! Yeah... you right there. Piss off!

Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 02:48 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
GRAND FILAMENT: A magnificent filament of magnetism is curling around the sun's southeastern quadrant today. Measuring more than 700,000 km from end to end, the vast structure is about twice as long as the separation between Earth and the Moon. Arrows trace the filament's meandering path in this extreme UV image from NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory:

[link to www.spaceweather.com]

[link to www.scientificamerican.com]

High activity explosions occurring on the farside of the Sun
April 9, 2011 – FARSIDE ACTIVITY: NASA’s STEREO probes are monitoring strong activity on the far side of the sun. A spectacular CME erupted during the early hours of April 8th apparently from old sunspot AR1176. This is the second day in a row that the active region has hurled massive clouds into space. –Space Weather.com

[link to www.youtube.com]
RTS

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04/09/2011 03:01 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1168900

hmm I've got a shortwave radio, CB.. batteries etc wrapped in tinfoil and placed in an unused dishwasher..is this an effective Faraday cage?
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 03:54 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
mhh, seems huge and growing

update:
[link to stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov]

edit: newest one from 2011-04-09 08:09:35

[link to stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 05:17 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Why does spaceweather say that April 8th flares were not earth directed ninrez says they are????
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2011 05:18 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Why does spaceweather say that April 8th flares were not earth directed ninrez says they are????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1034800


why is telling TEPCo everything is under control?

newest image its huge!

2011-04-09 08:54:24 UT
[link to stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov]

2011-04-09 09:09:35 UT
[link to stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov]

!!!
Rken
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04/09/2011 06:35 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1168900

hmm I've got a shortwave radio, CB.. batteries etc wrapped in tinfoil and placed in an unused dishwasher..is this an effective Faraday cage?
 Quoting: RTS

One thing that you fail to take into consideration when comparing now to the events in 02 is the position of our solar system in relation to the fluff cloud we are entering. Could produce more dramatic events due to the ease at which sun generated CME's could reach and affect the earth. rken
warpcrafter

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04/09/2011 07:19 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Given the patterns that have been emerging of increased solar activity and increased earthquake activity, I'm starting to worry.
Strictlyhonest.com

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04/09/2011 07:52 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Why does spaceweather say that April 8th flares were not earth directed ninrez says they are????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1034800


because she is right...
[link to strictlyhonest.com]

I'm glad that she has build the credibility to be taken seriously because I tried but was ignored.
Thank god there are some people left who watch every move and can't be fooled easily :)

moshpit
Derp
aether

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04/09/2011 08:21 AM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1168900

hmm I've got a shortwave radio, CB.. batteries etc wrapped in tinfoil and placed in an unused dishwasher..is this an effective Faraday cage?
 Quoting: RTS

One thing that you fail to take into consideration when comparing now to the events in 02 is the position of our solar system in relation to the fluff cloud we are entering. Could produce more dramatic events due to the ease at which sun generated CME's could reach and affect the earth. rken
 Quoting: Rken 1334596



e-mail question and answer in late 2009

Q. "And one last thing, given the rise in cosmic ray flux recently and the drop in strength of the Interplanetary Magnetic Field, can we expect more of these types of events in the future?"
Xenus (GLP)


A. "No, the cosmic flux will not change anything but dense plasma entering the solar system, as is now happening, will".[/b]
Dr. Anthony L. Perrat (Los Alamos)
Thread: PLASMA, its importance and why you should know about it. Warning, educational.

Dr. Anthony L. Perrat`s site

[link to public.lanl.gov]

Last Edited by aether on 04/09/2011 08:25 AM
crossroads

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04/09/2011 08:37 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Why does spaceweather say that April 8th flares were not earth directed ninrez says they are????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1034800


I'd like to know the answer to that as well. I looked at it last night and went phew! it's not earth directed only to wake up and see new posts saying it is.

ohno
crossroads

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04/09/2011 08:46 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Why does spaceweather say that April 8th flares were not earth directed ninrez says they are????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1034800


because she is right...
[link to strictlyhonest.com]

I'm glad that she has build the credibility to be taken seriously because I tried but was ignored.
Thank god there are some people left who watch every move and can't be fooled easily :)

moshpit
 Quoting: Strictlyhonest.com


Ooh I like that link ... thanks for posting it. Personally I believe they are lying to us. They fear billions of people will panic.
fellowearthling

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04/09/2011 08:59 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
happens ever eleven years ... you were still in diapers the last time ... admit it ... and you need diaper now ...


you ain't seen nutt'n yet


one X ... omg ... its the end of the world

get a Faraday Cage and some pop corn chill out ... the best is yet to come and the worst it will do is disrupt your cell phone for a second or two

if your EQ theory had any credibility at all, we would have had the largest one ever recorded in '02 after that X-40 and guess what - NADA! get a fricken clue


I do appreciate that you put this all in one place, and that you are going to up date it daily ... maybe after this cycle, you will learn to enjoy the next ones ... they are quite exciting and amazing ... but like I keep telling you, doom won't come from the sun ... it was created to sustain us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1168900

hmm I've got a shortwave radio, CB.. batteries etc wrapped in tinfoil and placed in an unused dishwasher..is this an effective Faraday cage?
 Quoting: RTS

If it is well grounded it should suffice.
Natural law created humans.
Human nature created lawyers.
NiNzrez (OP)

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04/09/2011 10:02 AM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
SpaceWeather

GRAND FILAMENT:
A magnificent filament of magnetism is curling around the sun's southeastern quadrant today. Measuring more than 700,000 km from end to end, the vast structure is about twice as long as the separation between Earth and the Moon. Arrows trace the filament's meandering path in this extreme UV image from NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory:
It's not easy for such a filament to remain suspended indefinitely above the stellar surface, and indeed a collapse is possible. Filaments falling onto the sun can trigger explosions called "Hyder flares." Is one in the offing? Readers with solar telescopes are encouraged to monitor developments.
[link to www.spaceweather.com]

Last Edited by NiNzrez on 04/09/2011 10:03 AM
Solar Alerts Blog
[link to mysolaralerts.blogspot.com]

Join Me On The GLP SOLAR WATCH Thread
Thread: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Thread: Magnetic Field Deficiency Syndrome- MAKING US SICK **MUST READ***

How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
Strictlyhonest.com

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04/09/2011 10:05 AM
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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Which side of the earth faces the sun like in this animation:

[link to iswa.ccmc.gsfc.nasa.gov:8080]

what is the expected time of arrival of the 'inbound' CME??

[link to img705.imageshack.us]
(CME Arrival Time: 2011-04-10 15:39:07.0 GMT)

hmm, let's check it out (this is my timezone, which is 2 hours ahead in comparison to GMT time):
[link to img695.imageshack.us]

SO I expect a big EQ somewhere because of the sudden pressure in North or South America an not in Japan, Indonesia, Australia etc

But I'm not an expert or pro or a prophet so I can be 3000% wrong on this and the area is so large, bit difficult to be specific anyway.

peace
Derp
NiNzrez (OP)

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04/09/2011 10:07 AM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
looks like we have some plasma lift off from the Filament on the South East section of the sun (8 oclock area)
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
[link to sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: NiNzrez


Hey NiNzrez.....Did you see the flare yesterday?

I wanted your opinion about possible effects

for April 11 on the earth? Thanks
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1012325


we should get a good geomagnetic storm
and i believe some higher than usual quake activity for this as well
Solar Alerts Blog
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Join Me On The GLP SOLAR WATCH Thread
Thread: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
Thread: Magnetic Field Deficiency Syndrome- MAKING US SICK **MUST READ***

How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
The 6th Sun
Ozark Granny

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04/09/2011 10:12 AM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
proxalt0408

The CCMC Connectivity Product utilizes several resources to create a single display that indicates the Earth's foot point location on the Sun along with any solar active regions and their corresponding proximity to the Earth's connected foot point location.
 Quoting: tomasgod1


Hi TGod, very cool!
What resources do you have to combine to come up with this footprint?

Thanks.
"God sleeps in the rocks, stirs in the plants, dreams in the animals,
and finally awakens in man." -Famous Vedic Quote-
[link to youtu.be]
NiNzrez (OP)

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04/09/2011 10:15 AM

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Re: SOLAR WATCH * 312 M & 25 X FLARES starting 3-7-2011 (Updated Daily)
GRAND FILAMENT: A magnificent filament of magnetism is curling around the sun's southeastern quadrant today. Measuring more than 700,000 km from end to end, the vast structure is about twice as long as the separation between Earth and the Moon. Arrows trace the filament's meandering path in this extreme UV image from NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory:

[link to www.spaceweather.com]

[link to www.scientificamerican.com]

High activity explosions occurring on the farside of the Sun
April 9, 2011 – FARSIDE ACTIVITY: NASA’s STEREO probes are monitoring strong activity on the far side of the sun. A spectacular CME erupted during the early hours of April 8th apparently from old sunspot AR1176. This is the second day in a row that the active region has hurled massive clouds into space. –Space Weather.com

[link to www.youtube.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 725191


ahh you already got to the update :)
i should have read through posts 1st hehe
thanks! :)
Solar Alerts Blog
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How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?

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