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Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years

 
vor

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03/22/2011 02:01 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
I was wondering, is it illegal to barter goods. Like what vonhouse did when he used his coinage.
 Quoting: Me against the world 1293514


Barter is not illegal...for now.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:02 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Wow. Just WOW.

It's disturbing that he was prosecuted for domestic terrorism. It is equally disturbing that the jury found him guilty on that charge.

I can understand a counterfeit charge, although I wouldn't have voted for conviction because it doesn't look like he wasn't copying actual coins in existence.

But the domestic terrorism charge?? God save us from stupid people who don't think for themselves.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:03 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Wow. Just WOW.

It's disturbing that he was prosecuted for domestic terrorism. It is equally disturbing that the jury found him guilty on that charge.

I can understand a counterfeit charge, although I wouldn't have voted for conviction because it doesn't look like he wasn't copying actual coins in existence.

But the domestic terrorism charge?? God save us from stupid people who don't think for themselves.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1292094


Should be "was" not "wasn't."
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:08 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
.

The biggest fucking "Domestic Terrorist" is vacationing down in South America ---> odance


Stop his ass at the border and ask him for his original birth certificate.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1292488

Your a dumb fuck.
Jack Tripper

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03/22/2011 02:09 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
.

The biggest fucking "Domestic Terrorist" is vacationing down in South America ---> odance


Stop his ass at the border and ask him for his original birth certificate.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1292488

Your a dumb fuck.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1307344


Learn to spell.
Levi Philos
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03/22/2011 02:10 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Uttering Coins and other Absurdities

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 486

§ 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

[link to www.law.cornell.edu]

and

[link to www.law.cornell.edu]

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 472

§ 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securities
Whoever, with intent to defraud, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


COUNTERFEIT, UTTERING - Title 18, U.S.C., Sec. 472, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to pass or 'utter,' with intent to defraud, any counterfeit United States Federal Reserve Note.


A person can be found guilty of that offense only if all of the following facts are proved beyond a reasonable doubt:


First: That the person passed or uttered a counterfeit Federal Reserve Note;

Second: That the person knew at the time that the note was counterfeit; and

Third: That the person passed the note willfully and with intent to defraud.

To 'pass' or 'utter' a counterfeit note includes any attempt to spend the note or otherwise place it in circulation.


Google search "uttering"
[link to www.google.com]

Now, I ask, "Do you have a freedom of speech? Do you have a freedom to contract?"


What I have been posting to this forum over and over is that money is essentially a communication by means of symbols and contracts that allow the exchange of commodities, finished products, services, and human intellectual and physical labor.

Think proxy instruments if that will help.


We all have a natural right to communicate by whatever means is effective and to participate in the creation of the symbols and contracts by which that communication is carried - the "utterance of money."


It is a freedom of speech issue.



Two general and interlocking presumptions keep people locked into the same thought cycle. The first presumption is that money is a *thing* , and the second presumption is that money is a natural monopoly best controlled by a centralized "authority."

The following rational is to show how money can actually be a variety of methods of transferring things of value by proxy, and these methods can operate at competition thus filling Hayek's premise in "DENATIONALIZATION OF MONEY."

There are three general categories of things of value that could be the basis for issuance of money.

Commodities and finished products held for claim can be the basis for a form of warehouse receipt - a bearer title instrument.

A promise to create and deliver something of value in the future - the promissory note - a form of a contract.
Human time as represented by a symbol such as the Ithaca Hour and redeemable in human intellectual and physical labor.


Each of these categories could in turn be broken down into general classes of total value.

* Commodities, Products, Promises, and Time of high value and backed by insurance policies and/or performance bonds. Guaranteed redemption.

* Commodities, Products, Promises, and Time of moderate or medium value backed by cross collateralization such as cooperative membership and/or corporation stock, and/or union affiliation in the case of Time Symbols. The second class of value might be backed by a formalized system of mutual credit.

* Commodities, Products, Promises, and Time of low value could be transmitted without guarantee other than word of mouth recommendation and/or reputation records such as e-bay keeps on buyers and sellers.


Examining this structure in some depth you start to see that an entire matrix of things that can be money appears.

When you see that money is actually a method or set of methods of conveying ownership by proxy, then it becomes readily apparent that there should never be any shortage of money.

It is the limitation of money to be a single *thing* (things are found in limited quantities) rather than money as a communication that control freaks who steal by lying are enabled of their fraud.

Using precious metals for your "utterance" of money is essentially an anti-counterfeiting measure. Study out how the casinos issue gambling chips - they have a counterfeiting problem too, and have solved that problem by a variety of techniques.

Casino chips and other coins: Thread: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments (Page 15)
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:11 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Wow. Just WOW.

It's disturbing that he was prosecuted for domestic terrorism. It is equally disturbing that the jury found him guilty on that charge.

I can understand a counterfeit charge, although I wouldn't have voted for conviction because it doesn't look like he wasn't copying actual coins in existence.

But the domestic terrorism charge?? God save us from stupid people who don't think for themselves.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1292094


The law he violated doesn't differentiate between coins of any type. It doesn't matter if it was a coin made in the image of legal tender coins in the USA, a foreign country, or even of its own unique design. I posted the law on the previous page, and it is quite clear that he violated that law.

He tried dancing on the edge of the law by refusing to call the things 'coins'. That dance failed.
Levi Philos
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03/22/2011 02:23 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Bernard von NotHaus

Incidentally, in German the word "von" simply means something between of and from. Thus Bernard from the family of NotHaus. A few people think the German "von" is somehow much like the English "Sir" which is not true.

Shame he didn't take on a different name for his public business. That name alone hurts his cause.

He is 67 years of age at the time of this writing, and his mug shot is here: [link to www.silverbearcafe.com]
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:23 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Interestingly enough, TPTB have known all too well about power and control through MONEY forever.

In all honesty, the only "truly" FREE people walking this planet today are the homeless. They have no attachments to our monetary system and are not bound by its' rules and regulations on a daily basis. They literally have NOTHING, but in terms of nothingness, they have everything because they aren't under any form of monetary bondage.

Everyone else, becomes a slave to the economy, bankers and the government that seemingly stands behind both.

The carrot at the end of the stick, has always been and will always be, a monetary system. Work! Work hard and spend money! Spend money on all that "stuff"! And just when you think you have enough stuff, or you're perfectly fine with the stuff you have, someone invents more stuff that you think you have to have. Thus, more choices, more stuff, must make more money to have more stuff!

I know most of us understand this very real and very fundamental flaw if you will, with our lives and the system and/or government(s) that support and uphold it.

If only more people would come to see that money is the largest control mechanism -and joke- to human civilization since the first coin was printed.

The revolution really can be stated like this:

one person, one coin at a time.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:29 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Making your own coins is illegal? That's bullshit!!!

Why should it be illegal?

I will promptly begin breaking this law as soon as I possibly can, because there is no sound justification for it
Levi Philos
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03/22/2011 02:34 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
BILLIONS FOR THE BANKERS, DEBTS FOR THE PEOPLE

[link to home.hiwaay.net]

Sheldon Emory (deceased); written about 1978

Too bad Becraft didn't scan the images and insert them into that piece. from: [link to home.hiwaay.net]

Becraft also has the Auriti piece which is MUST reading.
Ownership of money and the induction of value to money
Levi Philos
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03/22/2011 02:43 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
While I understand perfectly what you are saying above poster 1292272, I do not agree.

It is my position that an effective monetary system is what makes modern civilization possible.

I personally grew up tough and learned the touch of a whip when I was 12. Lots of hard work with a few days off.

And I really appreciate how modern energy and machines have made life much easier.

My participation within this forum is generally speaking toward the advancement of freedom.

This particular monetary format is enslaving the people and placing them all into some kind of neo-feudalism - stopping that agenda is what my stuff is really about.

I am absolutely not a Luddite.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:55 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
You know...I'm sorry, but I have to interject these legal interpretations for just a moment...

I found out about Liberty Dollar when I was in college back in 2004. When my awakening was truly just beginning...

I believe in what he was doing and advocated the idea of PM backing an agreeable currency amongst the users. Market determines currency value and it was really a perfect model. However, Bernard turned it into a Mulit-level Marketing scheme when "associates" received a discount on the exchange of Fed notes for LDs. This I didn't completely agree with, but it was incentive for people to become involved with the mass dispersing of LDs. Anyhow, on to my hypothesis:


I REALLY think that this whole thing is sort of a Beta Test. The biggest question that comes to mind ALWAYS in instances like this are how the hell did he and his team at the mint not diligently research the semantics of the currency laws? I mean...a few simple mistakes with symbols and verbiage and this man is a felon...he connections with Ron Paul (which I don't care who you are and what you think, Ron Paul is serving a dialectical purpose too; no matter how much I truly agree with the man's character), and his connections to Timothy Leary, CIA-LSD man.

I honestly think that this was a ploy to set up strategic strategies for fear mongering and to further the Agenda.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 02:58 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
The biggest fucking "Domestic Terrorist" is vacationing down in South America

Stop his ass at the border and ask him for his original birth certificate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1292488


And make sure you put him through the TSA cancer machine a few times.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:00 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
jury nullification
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 955229


Yes we all need to do this.
Do not find anyone guilty of anything.
Levi Philos
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03/22/2011 03:01 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
5 Stages of the Awakening, By Silver Shield, on January 30th, 2011

[link to dont-tread-on.me]

THIS IS VERY WELL WRITTEN.

Zbigniew Brezinski agrees: [link to www.youtube.com] (43 seconds)
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:12 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
sorry,but looking at America it's becoming a comedy sitcom,terrorism,terrorism,terrorism every where and for anything,are we allowed to laugh,it is funny,but sad and serious on an other level.
 Quoting: pauldamo


u sound like a terrorist to me!
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:16 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
The "Fed" is allowed to legally rob us using their fraudulent reserve notes, but don't you dare try to compete with them with something of value. You might notice that the emperor has no clothes.
Noempire2010

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03/22/2011 03:25 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
The FBI and Police only investigate the crimes they want to investigate. I have reported a fixed trial to the Portland FBI and they told me to go away and Never contact them again. I gave them all the documents of on the record testimony. They told me straight to my face that "people commit crimes everyday and that these people were going to get away with it.". I guess trial fixing and conspiracy to cover up a crime are acceptable crimes to commit if you are an attorney or judge. Does anyone on this site know a good reporter?
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:25 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
The "Fed" is allowed to legally rob us using their fraudulent reserve notes, but don't you dare try to compete with them with something of value. You might notice that the emperor has no clothes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1025379


+1
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:30 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
The US Mint told the Washington Post in October, 2006 it acted only after federal prosecutors around the country began forwarding inquiries about the coins, and realized the medallions had become a problem. US Mint spokeswoman Becky Bailey told the Washington Post at that time that "...we don't take these consumer alerts lightly. Merchants and banks are confronted by confused customers demanding they accept Liberty Dollars. They are not legal coin." One of those referrals came from the FBI in New York after an incident involving the attempted use of a Liberty Dollar when Amanda Buczek and her boyfriend Joel Lattuca at the refreshment stand at a New York Islander's hockey game that resulted in the arrest of her father, Dan Buczek, 55 and her brother Shane after Amanda asked the attendant if they accepted Libertys. He said no, and they paid him with a Federal Reserve note. An off-duty Buffalo detective arrested Dan Buczek and his son Shane—not the daughter or boyfriend—and contacted the FBI in an attempt to pursue counterfeiting charges against the Buczeks. While the felony charges that were initially filed against the Buczeks were later reduced to misdemeanors, a spokesman for the US Mint said that attempting to use the Liberty Dollar to pay for products or services could land the consumer in prison for up to five years.
[link to www.newswithviews.com]
Flew to close to the sun apparently.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:35 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
.

The biggest fucking "Domestic Terrorist" is vacationing down in South America ---> odance


Stop his ass at the border and ask him for his original birth certificate.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1292488


this +1000
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:43 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
"Von NotHaus used the Liberty Dollars in lieu of actual minted US coins and was found guilty on several charges stemming from making, processing, and using the imitation coins, the FBI said. He also was charged with conspiracy against the United States. "

This is technically the crime that he committed. You can't issue coins which are attempting to imitate U.S. currency

"The FBI claims that NOFRED “intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.”"

It is NOT illegal to create a competing currency. However, this is the real reason they charged him and brought him down

"“While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” said US Attorney Anne M. Tompkins."

This is a completely spurious argument
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1259655


What do you expect, Anne M Tompkins is a paid lackey of the Federal Reserve, a state owned bitch who has a vested interest in the "fed" dollar because her remuneration is in it. Anne wouldn't want anything to jeopardize her retirement in Belize, Paris, and Rome and her maid cleaning her "humble" abode.

Jackboot slut.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:48 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
jury nullification
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 955229


Yes we all need to do this.
Do not find anyone guilty of anything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 781996


Easier said than done. Prosecutors make damn sure no one but a non-thinker statist can get through the initial screenings. By the time the jury is seated, you have a group of unquestioning idiots who have already decided to prosecute quicky so they can go home and watch the next episode of dancing with the stars.
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 03:53 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
"Von NotHaus used the Liberty Dollars in lieu of actual minted US coins and was found guilty on several charges stemming from making, processing, and using the imitation coins, the FBI said. He also was charged with conspiracy against the United States. "

This is technically the crime that he committed. You can't issue coins which are attempting to imitate U.S. currency

"The FBI claims that NOFRED “intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.”"

It is NOT illegal to create a competing currency. However, this is the real reason they charged him and brought him down

"“While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” said US Attorney Anne M. Tompkins."


This is a completely spurious argument
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1259655


What do you expect, Anne M Tompkins is a paid lackey of the Federal Reserve, a state owned bitch who has a vested interest in the "fed" dollar because her remuneration is in it. Anne wouldn't want anything to jeopardize her retirement in Belize, Paris, and Rome and her maid cleaning her "humble" abode.

Jackboot slut.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1309082


[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 04:35 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
One has to ask if one is taxed in all things and ta all times and thusly controlled in all things, who exactly is the owner of the individual?
They will kill you and take your stuff, not NECESSARILY in that order, but kill you they will. IT is a crossroads of earthly preeminance or some other morality based upon self sufficiency. YOU decide what showing of yourself you make, and what consequence for your children and those that come after. Either way. at this point someone has a target painted on your back or at very least, a SKU #
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 04:36 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Domestic Terrorism????

I can think of many groups that would fall under that realm:

Environmentalists
NAACP
ACORN
Black Panthers
Anything Al Sharpton touches
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 04:40 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Didn't read the entire thread, but one question: Especially since Ron Paul's head is on the coin, and he must have supported the effort to some degree, and since Paul's opinions, re: the federal reserve, are the same, WHY HAS RON PAUL NOT BEEN A VOCAL, ARDENT SUPPORTER OF THIS MAN?? WTF? I supported RP in the last election. Even wrote him in during the general election. But where the hell is he when someone like this guy needs help. Did RP get subpoenaed to the guy's trial? RP should be making a LOUD statement about this abuse of freedom! Where the fuck are you, Ron Paul?
thatguyoverthere

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03/22/2011 04:53 PM

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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
The Govt is just sour grapes because this guy probably figured out a way to do it cheaper and faster.

Was he selling these for 2 american dollars? If not... well.. then this is silly, it seems like our countries stupidity should be put on trial for accessory to terrorism.
scratching
I see what the world don't show me.
[link to db.tt]
Anonymous Coward
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03/22/2011 04:53 PM
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Re: Guy who put Ron Paul's face on his own minted coins convicted of "domestic terrorism," could get 15 years
Didn't read the entire thread, but one question: Especially since Ron Paul's head is on the coin, and he must have supported the effort to some degree, and since Paul's opinions, re: the federal reserve, are the same, WHY HAS RON PAUL NOT BEEN A VOCAL, ARDENT SUPPORTER OF THIS MAN?? WTF? I supported RP in the last election. Even wrote him in during the general election. But where the hell is he when someone like this guy needs help. Did RP get subpoenaed to the guy's trial? RP should be making a LOUD statement about this abuse of freedom! Where the fuck are you, Ron Paul?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 317023


When all is said and done, if there is a ring to kiss, One decides whether one kisses it, amd maybe one kisses it and moves on. Paul will not carry you to the promised land, sorry.
There was no effort to pass off the coinage as authentic, this is the salient issue for counterfeiting and it doesnt stand.
The ruling is an intermediate step to legitimize confiscation of any valuable, although if you read the executive orders over the last 20 years, you realize that you have the right to die and nothing else. You have no legal. individual rights by decree to lay claim to any single thing that you have possessed, you can even be assigned wook against you will. And there's nothing and nobody that will support you in opposing that fact.
Dont believe me? READ THE EO's!!