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I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:12 AM
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I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
I dont hate Jesus. I love Him VERY much. I just hate the CRAP DONE AND SAID IN HIS NAME

I remember reading in the bible where Jesus was having trouble with the puffed up pharisees..who JUST like todays modern so called "Christians"..were giving him a hard time over nitpicky doctrinal points..and getting angry at him for pointing out their utter hypocrisy and they called him a GOD hater..and he said to them..something like..

The drunkards and the prostitutes and the tax men swindlers will get into the kingdom before you.

From what I can ascertain from it..its the ORDINARY "Sinners" who Jesus was referring to who would be more WORTHY of the kingdom then the pharisitical religious ones of the day.

I suppose its because its better to be an HONEST sinner than a DISHONEST lying saint in the end.

And he said something about not being decieved by smooth words and teachings that sound all comfy cozy..that those who preach easy listening doctrines were decievers.

Well..I could not think of a more evil and insidious doctrine than the pre trib rap get out of trouble FREE doctrine..that and the PROSPERITY "BLESS ME" Doctrine...and its OH so COMFY COSY..promising them a getaway from hurting their little pinkies. Jesus also made it clear that you have to ENDURE to the end..how heck is getting a free ride to heaven while everyone else BURNS....ENDURING??


DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.


I just get SICK to DEATH of the same LIES...YEAR AFTER YEAR...the same pack of easy listening LIES LIES LIES..and their ATTITUTE to everyone else..INCLUDING their own "BROTHERS" who dont believe the NEW AGE illumunati "relevant church" LIES they have been PROGRAMMED with ..the way they treat their brothers and others with is just PATHETIC.

Its no WONDER people want to vomit at ALL christians these days..JUST because of the FEW..the PRE TRIB RAP AND PROSPERITY drones..giving the REAL christians..the ones who DO have LOVE and COMPASSION and HUMILITY and MOST of all.. COURAGE..a rotten name. AS a result..VERY few want to have anything to DO with it..including ME...cause it makes me SICK.

GOD will save according to whats on the heart..ACCORDING to the bible..JESUS own words..yep..he SAID it...

Something about sheep and goats...one lot GAVE a shit about others...and another lot DID NOT..

It said NOTHING about "Did you say a prayer and accept Jesus into you heart"..THAT rubbish aint even IN the Bible..id LOVE to know where they got the "Sinners prayer" GARBAGE from..cause it just aint IN there.

NO..from what JESUS himself actually SAID...its sheep..or its GOATS..right?..and WHAT was the DIFFERENCE between these sheep and goats??

ON the surface..NO difference..BOTH lots claimed "Salvation"..BOTH KNEW Jesus....or claimed to..and BOTH used his name..and did miracles..and this and that IN Jesus name..

BOTH were "CHRISTIANS"..its CLEAR as a bell..BOTH were CLEARLY CHRISTIANS..so WHY were ONE lot sheep..and the OTHER lot GOATS?????

BECAUSE..ONE lot was UNSELFISH..CARING..VISITED POOR DUDES IN PRISON..CLOTHED THE NAKED...GAVE TO THE POOR AND NEEDY..AND ASKED NOTHING IN RETURN..they were HUMBLE..and POLITE and full of LOVE and they did not ARGUE endlessly over doctrines or condescendingly put others down and threwaten them with HELL if they didnt see things their way..in other words..they were JUST LIKE JESUS because they TRULY KNEW HIM.

The GOATS..SAID all the "RIGHT" words...they SPOKE the LINGO..but they just DID NOT GIVE a FLYING F%#K about ANYONE but themselves. They spent their time debating and arguing and BEING WRONG..YEAR AFTER YEAR..and they did NOT feed anyone..or do any GOOD for anyone..they just DID NOT CARE about ANYone but THEMSELVES and their WALLETS and their BELLIES...

And if these goats DID do something..cause they all said something like "But Lord..we did many miracles in your name..and cast out demons and stuff..AD NAUSEUM.."They did it FOR SELFISH GAIN..to be NOTICED....or to make LOTS OF MONEY from MOVIES and BOOKS and NEW AGE GARBAGE like the "LEFT BEHIND" series which made MILLIONS..while the poor and the needy STARVED AND DIED!..they have ZERO Love..ZERO humility..and STUFF ALL COURAGE...they IGNORE the POOR..live in multi million dollar MANSIONS.

While SO many are STARVING..NEW AGE WOLVES like COPELAND and HINN and DUPLANTIS and that DOLLAR viper..live like KINGS on the MONEY they BILKED AND CONNED out of the "NEW AGE SHEEP"....who followed so BLINDLY that lakeland CRAP which was the EPITOME of UTTER HIPOCRISY...but so TYPICAL of the modern church of today

What does Jesus say to these NEW AGE "BELIEVERS" EH???

DEPART from me ye WORKERS of utter GARBAGE AND LIES....cause I NEVER KNEW YOU...

Gonna be a REAL shock to these VIPERS aint it????

Jesus said something about VOMITING these greedy self serving hypocrites out of his mouth.

Week after week you turn up..hand over all your money for new seats and screens and better air con..while the poor and the hungry just down the road STARVE!!!

While the fat assed pastor..fat gutted and lazy..preaches about FASTING??...and MORE money..and MORE money..for the never ending BUILDING program that all churches seem to have.

STUFF the poor..WHO CARES about the needy..and TOUGH LUCK for the people of the world..cause they are all gonna BURN right??

ALL YOU have to do is keep turning up with wallet OPEN..and BRAIN disengaged..to feed the never ending circle of NEW AGE EASY LISTENING FLESH PLEASING GARBAGE..GIVE to get...get PISSED on the holy spirit..ALWAYS about FEELING GOOD..SELF SELF SELF..always thinking of your SELF!!!

Thery ONLY care about what they can get..they dont give a flying F$#K about the hurting,,the needy...the downtrodden..the modern church FLIES IN THE FACE OF EVERYTHING JESUS EVER TAUGHT!!!

IN the name of MONEY!!!

MONEY and FEELINGS is their GOD!!!!

"BUt but..we give money to the poor"....you might say..

WHAT OF IT??

They DO it ONLY to win a few more BROWNIE POINTS...they DONT do it cause theyreally CARE!!!!..they do it ONLY so they have a better chance of being raptured..or getting some reward..or feeling better..or being blessed more..

THEY DONT CARE!!!...and when they DO..its all a NEW AGE FEEL GOOD "BLESS ME BLESS ME" SHOW!!

The modern christian church have turned the TRUTH into a way to FEEL GOOD..ESCAPE DOOM..and MAKE MONEY..and GET BLESSED!!!

THEY DONT KNOW ANYTHING EXCEPT what they WANT to hear..and they KNOW ONLY WHAT THEY HEARD!!

THEY WILL ignore everything I am saying now FOR THIS REASON!!

You will READ this...and say "THATS NOT ME..I DONT DO THAT!!

Well...every time you walk into a church and open your wallet up..

YOU DO!!


YOU FEED THE MACHINE..the money making machine..IDOLATRY!!!!


WHEN will your new age easy road, zero suffering, fat, lazy, so called christians realise its NOT A GAME!!!

ITS NOT a "BLESS ME FEEL GOOD CLUB"

But thats how its TREATED.

I went to these churches,,all over the world..for the last 40 years..ive seen em all slide into the PIT..thinking they are OH so HOLY..and going to heaven.

WHAT JOKE its become...

And they will EXCUSE this with..

"WE ARE NOT PERFECT..JUST FORGIVEN"

WHAT a lot of GARBAGE,,a SELF justifying concience excusing load of UTTER CRAP!!


THEN....if you keep following along the same lines as the modern christian..the following rant will APPLY TO YOU TOO..wont that be great??...

Ill actually use SCRIPTURE to back this up..the words of JESUS HIMSELF...which MOST of them TOTALLY DISREGARD..cause they like to do their OWN thing WAY too much.

Jesus OWN WORDS.


MATTHEW 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Yeah..they LOVE to preach a whole lot of HIPOCRITICAL CONDEMING SOUL TEARING MIND NUMBING FEAR BASED CRAP which turns people AWAY from the TRUE way...with smooth deceptive words and well worded sermons designed to feed their WALLETS..and make MILLIONS from their LIES of TWISTED SCRIPTURE(The left behind movies and books)....but tell me this you mouldy stains on the name of jesus...


WHY wont You do what he SAYS..YOU wont enter in YOURSELVES..and by your UTTERLY ABOMINABLE BEHAVIOUR AND EXAMPLE...

no one ELSE wants to either!!Because they LOOK at YOU pathetic, easy living, cowardly liars and think..RIGHTLY SO..that CHRISTIANS are NOTHING BUT A PACK OF ARGUING SELF CENTERED GREEDY ADULTEROUS LYING HYPOCRITES

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Yeah..ya just LOVE the OH SO HOLY prayers..babbling away in tongues and blaspheming the holy spirit with your UTTER ABOMINATIONS(Getting PISSED on the holy spirit).

.THIS according to YOUR BIBLE is what you do..USING something HOLY to make MONEY
and have FUN and act like FOOLS..is BLASHEMY..and using the holy spirit to promote your MONEY MAKING LIES is BLASPHEMY aginst the HOLY SPIRIT...ACCORDING to the BIBLE...you DO feed on widows houses..you rake in offerings year after year..from old widows who are too weak to resist the SNARES of guilt, shame, and FEAR you set..SHAME on you you

But wait,,,there is MORE.....

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Yeah..ya do this too..seeking ever more victims...who start out as ordinary people...you prey on their fear..their terror..with stories of DOOM and HELLFIRE..you convert them..and then turn THEM TOO..into the SAME brand of UTTER HIPOCRITES AS YOU!!!

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Yeah,,ya LOVE to rake ya tithes in..you ONLY pay it to get BLESSED..its all based on GREED and SELFISHNESS.IF you really GAVE a toss about anyone but yourselves..you would GIVE that money to the POOR and the HUNGRY..BUT NO..ya give it to these SWINDLERS to put new STAGES and SCREENS in their churches..to buy in the latest christian ROCK BAND..so you can ACT just like the WORLD you always CONDEMN....



BUT the list of your SHAME goes ON..(I could write a BOOK on the very long trail of HIPOCRISY..)

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Yeah..ya LOVE to turn up to church..all spiffy looking..all smiles...but within its all pure HELL..as you battle with the FACADE..hoping the REAL human you are deep inside does not SHOW..as you battle with LUST and ANGER..and HATE..and all the while jealousy and envy grows..and greed..and slander....while church after church falls apart as minister after minister is caught YET again with their cock frimly planted in the vagina of a woman who is NOT THEIRS...HINN..SWAGGART..all of em..BENTLY..what a total FARCE you vipers are...and you know what????ONE common DENOMINATOR among all of these CHARLATANS???.....MONEY MONEY GREED AND MORE MONEY..and ADULTERY..and ALL of them seem to be pre trib hellfire preachers...a doctrine of satan will bear the fruits of satan.
BUT the list goes ON.....

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Ya look all clean..but inside you are DIRTY LUSTFUL COWARDLY SELFISH VIPERS.
And THIS according to YOUR BIBLE..is WHAT Jesus is gonna DO to LIARS LIKE YOU....


51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the HYPOCRITES: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Thats right..you shall be BURT AWAY to NOTHING in the lake of fire..and cese forever to BE!


8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Let me break this down a bit for ya so you heartless vipers can FINALLY understand it eh??


8 But the fearful,

(YEP..thats the NEW AGE CHRISTIAN RAPTURE/PROSPERITY BLESS ME BLESS ME TARDS..always AFRAID and wanting to get OUTTA here while everyone else BURNS

and unbelieving,

(Yep..thats them TOO..cause if they actually BELIEVED the bible like they SAY they do..they would NOT be such a bunch of loveless lying hipocritical money and good times worshipping LIARS)

and the abominable,

(Yes..thats them too..their behaviour towards their brothers and the rest of the world is just ABOMINABLE!...an ABOMINATION!!

and murderers,

(HOW many widows have died in their homes..MURDERED by their lack of funds for more medicine because the modern church machine conned them out of their money??..or told sick people to STOP taking their medicine because if they did nOT they lacked FAITH and God would not heal them..PURE rubbish and LIES..they are FAR WORSE than JWS refusing blood to the dying)

and whoremongers,

(Yep..how many of them secretly sleep around..or lust after women or men in your heart?..whoreing after flesh or money..or gain...or a wonderful FEELING in some drummed up atmosphere "Worship" meeting?..THIS is what it means..a deep endless lusting to GRATIFY yourselves..to CONSTANTLY AND UNENDINGLY PLEASE YOURSELVES!)

and sorcerers,

(AHH yes..the MAIN one that the pastors of these illuminati NEW AGE CON artists love..sorcery..beguiling with words..using the "Anointing" like a drug..when its ALL just a manufactured atmosphere with loud ponding drum beats in a VERY worldly concert hall setting brought about to BEWITCH and SWINDLE and HYPNOTISE..and THIS is what it means)

and idolaters,

(Idolatry..the modern churches FAVOURITE passtime..they worship WORSHIP itself..and FEELINGS..and PEOPLE..and MONEY..and BOOKS..and MOVIES..seems they idolise ANYTHING..but GOD..what a bunchh of UTTER AND TOTAL LIARS)

and all liars,shall have their part in the LAKE which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

SELF explainatory is it NOT?)

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Need I say more???
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:15 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
* * * * *

(iou)
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
blasphemer
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blasphemer
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1300003


hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/04/2011 02:29 AM
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blasphemer
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1300003


LOL

There is always one.

I know you are joking though.

If you had been for real you would have told me that I was going to burn in hell for speaking such TRUTH.
Elephant Worker

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04/04/2011 02:41 AM

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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Hey - join my gang. We're called the Christ Punchers ;)
Has anyone else noticed this elephant in the lounge room ?

Another block of writing from Elephant full of supposition and condescension whilst saying pretty much nothing. - EggNigma 2/2/2011
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:42 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
why is this pinned?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:44 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
why is this pinned?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156156

Unpin this shit.
clappa
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04/04/2011 02:45 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
It's just the love of god they are showing you laugh
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:49 AM
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Australians can't be born again. (it's in the Bible)
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:49 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
How can you hate someone who doesn't exist?tomato
Anonymous Coward
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
I know what you mean, I get the same sort of response when I speak up against the modern day scribes and Pharisees. I don't take the bible word for word but rather by the spirit of the word! Eg. It does say that ALL liars will have their place in the lake of fire! Well I am sorry, but that means EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD on the face of the Earth. That's what it says but I don't read it to mean that otherwise there is no hope for anyone.
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04/04/2011 02:58 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Thanks OP.

With regards to what the OP is saying;
I could not read it all, but he seems to be on the right track. Many other so-called Christians are on the wrong track. I argue to say almost all of us taking part in TM (trade mark protected) or R (all rights reserved) registered denominations will have troubles.

Seek God our Father through Jesus Christ, not a denomination.


"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." (NIV)
Matthew 18:20



"Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV)
Mark 12:28-31
The Brian

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04/04/2011 03:00 AM
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What the fuck is this horseshit?
jesusfacep
"And a spaceman fucked an ape"
Da Purple Chicken

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04/04/2011 03:02 AM

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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Good rant OP!
“If we are peaceful, if we are happy, we can smile and blossom like a flower, and everyone in our family, our entire society, will benefit from our peace.”
Thich Nhat Hanh, Being Peace

"But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you;
or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish in the sea inform you." - Job 12:7,8

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Hunter S. Thompson

revstargazer (at) hotmail.com
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:03 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Hey - join my gang. We're called the Christ Punchers ;)
 Quoting: Elephant Worker

C*P*G, in melbourne per chance?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:04 AM
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... but that means EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD on the face of the Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1326785

don'T forget we are all ONE
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:14 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Well said, OP.
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Brilliantly put op.


The true teachings of Christ are beautiful - what every human should strive for, not to be Christian, but to be good people.

Keep spreading the good word
Texas Uncensored

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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Great rant, OP. Thank you for saying all of that.
This attitude of thinking that everyone but them must be preached to, to the point of ad nauseum is not what I call Christian behavior.
The behavior pushes me away. It doesn't change my belief, but it makes me wary of their motives.

Ghandi was asked why Christianity has a hard time getting a foothold in India.
He replied, "Because of the Christians."

Last Edited by Texas Uncensored on 04/04/2011 03:28 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Because being a Christian isn't about making the world a better place, about serving the least of your brethren, it's about being saved, hallelujah, it's all about me, me, me -- being right and being self-righteous.

Churches are gathering places so that Christians can socialize and hear how wonderful they are, how they are saved and going to heaven, while condemning others to hell. It's not a place of ministering to those in the community.

How many Christian churches run a full time soup kitchen? Shit, at least the Catholics do that. How many are helping the poor outside of their own congregation?

How many are raising MORE funds for the needy than they are raising for their own buildings and operation expenses?

And yet they think that as long as they believe that Jesus existed then they are a-okay with whatever they do.

You should have read what they wrote last night! Judgmental, abusive, name-calling, critical, lying, deception. . . I can't imagine how much worse they could be.

Salvation should be a transformative process -- changing the individual in very fundamental ways. You would think they would be loving and kind, but they aren't.

Most just use their faith as a way to condemn others.
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04/04/2011 03:34 AM
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why is this pinned?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1156156

Unpin this shit.
clappa
 Quoting: Silverblade

THIS

Why pin a personal rant?

Pin the thread about people in the US noticing their thyroids swelling after they were in the radioactive rain- That's Worth Pinning.

Thread: Thyroid Glands ---> Anyone notice anything? *UPDATED APR 4th*

STOP Clogging up the forums with Garbage.
This forum has a higher purpose than jagoffs talking about their beliefs and personal higher purposes.
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:35 AM
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Great rant, OP. Thank you for saying all of that.
This attitude of thinking that everyone but them must be preached to, to the point of ad nauseum is not what I call Christian behavior.
The behavior pushes me away. It doesn't change my belief, but it makes me wary of their motives.

Ghandi was asked why Christianity has a hard time getting a foothold in India.
He replied, "Because of the Christians."
 Quoting: Texas Uncensored


Its about time GLP pinned something TRUE!
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:41 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Because being a Christian isn't about making the world a better place, about serving the least of your brethren, it's about being saved, hallelujah, it's all about me, me, me -- being right and being self-righteous.

Churches are gathering places so that Christians can socialize and hear how wonderful they are, how they are saved and going to heaven, while condemning others to hell. It's not a place of ministering to those in the community.

How many Christian churches run a full time soup kitchen? Shit, at least the Catholics do that. How many are helping the poor outside of their own congregation?

How many are raising MORE funds for the needy than they are raising for their own buildings and operation expenses?

And yet they think that as long as they believe that Jesus existed then they are a-okay with whatever they do.

You should have read what they wrote last night! Judgmental, abusive, name-calling, critical, lying, deception. . . I can't imagine how much worse they could be.

Salvation should be a transformative process -- changing the individual in very fundamental ways. You would think they would be loving and kind, but they aren't.

Most just use their faith as a way to condemn others.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 969156



TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN!

I used to go to these big churches and thats all they are. A social club where they make themselves feel good. Endlessly repeating their lies to eachother to reinforce them and then turning around and condemning to HELL anyone who dares question them.

And GOD HELP the wounded and the hurting in the churches..because the christians wont unless there is some MONEY IN IT for them.

They love to put the boot in when you are down.

They love raving about the rapture year after year and makng millions for the greedy liars that sell the books to the cowardly gullible weaklings who just LOVE a doctrine that tells them they DONT have to take up any sort of cross and suffer for their faith like MILLIONS of chrsitians around the world are doing RIGHT THIS INSTANT!

Selfish and greedy. Deluded and decieved. Always proclaiming LOVE and always showing HATE and indifference.

Always raving about the POWER of God but NEVER SHOWING his LOVE...the ONLY love they show is the LOVE OF THEMSELVES AND THE LOVE OF MONEY!
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:46 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
The orthodox teaching has been, virtually, (1) that all of us are born in sin, are evil, and in and of ourselves are worms and nothings; (2) that on this Earth we cannot be like Jesus, since he was God and we are human; (3) that, moreover, we do not need to be like Jesus, since he “fixes it up” for our shortcomings, anyway. Look at the logic of it: no one can be like Jesus; no one need be like Jesus. The natural conclusion, and in any case the actual result, is that no one tries to be like Jesus. The most conspicuous thing about the life in the Christian Church is the almost total absence of any wholehearted attempt to put the teaching of Jesus into practice. Everyone is content to do the very thing that Jesus himself condemned: everyone cries “Lord, Lord,” but no one addresses himself to the difficult and painful, yet always possible task of actually doing what “the Lord” so obviously said.

And why should anyone do so? Such teaching as we have had, has cut the very taproot of moral earnestness and spiritual endeavor. It may all be very true that none shall see for another, not one; and none eat for another, not one; and none climb for another, not one; that none, God, man or devil, so long as we remain responsible growing creatures, shall take the place of, or be any substitute for, any other. But seeing, eating, climbing, and getting over hurdles and recovering from falls are all costly, perhaps painful. And in most people there is a lazy streak. If they can be made to believe that there is an elevator to the top of the mountain, they will ride rather than climb. And they flock to bargain counters. They love to get much for little, something for nothing, and are all too ready to get into the show without paying if they can believe that free tickets are available. Of course it is all a delusion. None can stand for another; and there is no substitute whatever for our own struggle. He who would get the view and the air that go with mountaintops, must himself climb there. There is no other way. But the teaching that has been given to us has lulled to sleep men who could have climbed, and would have climbed, so that they have laid down and, spiritually, died in their tracks. And each man who makes a mistake pays the price, internally if not externally; and he pays it immediately. If, with his soul, he sees one thing and yet allows himself to do another, that soul of his, his sensitiveness to all that is a matter of value, his aliveness in the realm of all life’s meanings, will go a little bit soft, lose its edge, and begin to die. If he keeps on thus, it will die altogether. And there is no forgiveness whatever, either of man or of God, that can make him as he was before. He shall never be where he was before, let alone go higher, until again and again he shall have met the same sort of issue in which before he was false, and this time proved true. The law is: Do what you see or go blind. Everyone is entrusted with a measure of spiritual comprehension—some with a measure that might be represented by “ten talents,” and others with only five or one. How much one starts with does not so much matter. But there is one law that holds equally for all: if you use what you have you will get more. But if for any reason you fail to use it, if you take it and, as it were, wrap it in a napkin and bury it in the ground, you will wake up at last to discover that even what you started with has been taken away.

And this is the worst of the matter. The worst is not that the Church has perpetrated upon mankind a pious hoax, and turned the life and teaching of Jesus into a piece of hocus-pocus, an imaginary transaction to counteract imaginary sin to get people into an imaginary heaven. (For there is no such heaven as people picture, and the sins people labor under are mostly of man’s making, and the transaction never took place.) Neither is the worst that the Church has made promises that are utterly impossible to fulfill and that thereby people are lulled into a false sense of security.

It is rather that they are thus led to trifle with the only real Life, with their spiritual potentialities, with the comprehension, the instinct, the sensitiveness, intuition and living impulse, which alone can lift them to heights and hang rainbows over them, and give them stars—in short, give their days on Earth some meaning, some value, some significance. It is the crime of the Church against Life not only that it promises a life it does not and cannot give, but that it takes away from men the real life they did have, and which might have gone no one knows how far. In the beginning they saw, but led by the Church to believe that doing is not necessary, that Jesus will “fix it up” with God, it comes about that they “see and do not”—as Jesus said of the Pharisees. (Matt. 23:3) And presently they are not able any longer even to see. They “see and do not” and are not aware that they do not do. They are false and do not know that they are false. They are stone-blind, and it never enters their heads that they are blind. All sense of reality in their moral and spiritual existence has vanished. They live in an artificial world, a world of imaginary values, which cuts them off from all actuality, so that their organic spiritual existence slowly starves to death. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t eat. It doesn’t digest, assimilate, or excrete. Shut off from food and light and air, it languishes and dies. Dies because it never exerted itself, never kicked, or used its fists, or raised its voice, or got up and went anywhere. It allowed itself slowly to be wound about with grave-cloths, over its eyes, and ears, and mouth, and around its arms and hands, and legs and feet. And now it’s a mummy. People walk around, talk and laugh, but within their breasts all the while is a mummy, a dead thing, a corpse. And presently it rots, and stinks, and infects, and poisons everyone who comes near. Until today almost our whole society is poisoned—poisoned above all with false values, which make our whole direction false, and the sickness is so prevalent that it escapes notice and is looked upon as health, while the truly healthy man, instead of being recognized as the norm and held up for admiration, is regarded with suspicion and pressed to become sick like the rest.

And it is the Church, with its paralyzing conception “Christ,” that has done this thing. The Church has been the great enemy of the Life of man. In the parable, the sower sowed seed in his field, hoping that it would grow each according to its kind, in fulfillment of the shape and color and strength it bore within itself. But in the night an enemy came and sowed tares in the field. But the tares were not so bad as what the Church has done to the field. With the tares the seed could at least struggle. Some of it might come to be what it was meant to be. But the Church has sterilized the soil, so that nothing would grow at all—so that even the weeds grow sickly. The Church has taken away man’s belief in his innermost self, which is his belief in Life. It has taken away his struggle, without which there is no growth, no fulfillment. It has not, as it were, told the seed that it was a life-and-death necessity to struggle—to get its own roots deep down into the soil, to food and drink, and to force its tender shoots up towards the sky, to sun and air. On the contrary, it has told the seed that all this costly and painful labor has been done for it, by another, and that if only the seed would accept this as fact and rest in it, eventually it would be transplanted to another garden and be miraculously transformed into full-grown and perfect flowers. But there isn’t any other garden. Regardless of locale, all life is one. So that the net result is that the garden remains barren and bare. The seed, which might have come to every sort of flower and fruit, comes to nothing. It rots in the ground. And it was this that made Nietzsche to declare that the two greatest stupefiers of the Western world have been alcohol and Christianity.1
 Quoting: W.G.S.


[link to www.solargeneral.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:57 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
WTF is this shit and why is it pinned?


utter BS
rb
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04/04/2011 03:58 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
hey op are you THE DOOM on a tangent here lately??

love rb
Texas Uncensored

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04/04/2011 04:01 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Great rant, OP. Thank you for saying all of that.
This attitude of thinking that everyone but them must be preached to, to the point of ad nauseum is not what I call Christian behavior.
The behavior pushes me away. It doesn't change my belief, but it makes me wary of their motives.

Ghandi was asked why Christianity has a hard time getting a foothold in India.
He replied, "Because of the Christians."
 Quoting: Texas Uncensored


Its about time GLP pinned something TRUE!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1327289


I can almost picture Ghandi saying it, and modestly giggling. hehe
Spawn

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04/04/2011 04:02 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
OP, it's good that you see how true Christians need to come out of the Church of Laodecia. Christ tells us to come out of that Church in Revelations. I do not follow the prosperity teachers since our treasure is in heaven and that's where we should lay it up.

I do follow a pre-trib belief since Revelations 11:17 & 18 clearly show the Bema seat judgement for Christians in Heaven - before his return to Earth at the end of Revelations. And the Bema Seat judgements is a post redemption event. You can read it for yourself. There is enough out there so I'm not trying to prove it to you, you have heard it all and you don't believe it, and that's fine. There CAN be differing opinions on that belief. At least there should be.

However....., you bring up the sheep and the goats and you are correct it's about WHAT YOU DO that determines if you are put on Christs right (sheep) or left (goat). But that verse is referring to those that survive the Tribulation as a mortal....

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT... you may say??????

Well it's obvious that Yeshua is back on Earth separating the sheep and the goats, right? Well then HE HAS COME BACK to earth and if he has come back to earth, even if you are a post-tribulationist, you would have met him 'in the air" right before he came back to earth and so thusly all Christians are now translated into their glorified state for all of eternity.

If you say that the "false" Christians weren't "taken" up to meet the Lord in the air then there would be NO NEED to separate ANYONE since the only ones left on earth at that time WOULD BE THE GOATS.....

The sheep and the goats is the judgement of mortals that lived through the tribulation as to how they treated his "elect", which is the Jewish people (specifically the 144,000 sealed) and Christians (those that came to Christ during the tribulation, gentile and jew not in the 144,000) of the tribulation.

You probably still will not accept this, but there is no way to get around the fact that Yeshua is ON EARTH at this time so the dead must have been raised and then those that were left alive taken up - even if you are a post-tribulation believer.

This was not a teaching I heard or read, but the Holy Spirit just revealed this logical interpretation of the scripture so you can understand it more clearly.

Again, I applaud your chastisement of the Laodecian church. The areas that need to be addressed with in the Church today is not about the Rapture and when it happens, but about:

The Divinity of Yeshua
The infallibility of the Word of God (old and new testament)
The resurrection and ascension of Yeshua
The bodily return of Yeshua
Salvation by grace through faith
Repentance from sin

These are the major points of agreement that all Christians should come to.

Peace be unto you.

Last Edited by Spawn on 04/04/2011 04:13 AM
....and whatever you do, DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK... no... don't do it... STOP!!!! I warned you....

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 04:18 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.

Not some goof ball behind a pulpit preaching false doctrine.


Interesting video from a Muslim point of view.

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 04:19 AM
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Re: I DO NOT HATE JESUS..I AM NOT A CHRIST HATER!...but thats what I am called when I speak out.
OP, it's good that you see how true Christians need to come out of the Church of Laodecia. Christ tells us to come out of that Church in Revelations. I do not follow the prosperity teachers since our treasure is in heaven and that's where we should lay it up.

I do follow a pre-trib belief since Revelations 11:17 & 18 clearly show the Bema seat judgement for Christians in Heaven - before his return to Earth at the end of Revelations. And the Bema Seat judgements is a post redemption event. You can read it for yourself. There is enough out there so I'm not trying to prove it to you, you have heard it all and you don't believe it, and that's fine. There CAN be differing opinions on that belief. At least there should be.

However....., you bring up the sheep and the goats and you are correct it's about WHAT YOU DO that determines if you are put on Christs right (sheep) or left (goat). But that verse is referring to those that survive the Tribulation as a mortal....

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT... you may say??????

Well it's obvious that Yeshua is back on Earth separating the sheep and the goats, right? Well then HE HAS COME BACK to earth and if he has come back to earth, even if you are a post-tribulationist, you would have met him 'in the air" right before he came back to earth and so thusly all Christians are now translated into their glorified state for all of eternity.

If you say that the "false" Christians weren't "taken" up to meet the Lord in the air then there would be NO NEED to separate ANYONE since the only ones left on earth at that time WOULD BE THE GOATS.....

The sheep and the goats is the judgement of mortals that lived through the tribulation as to how they treated his "elect", which is the Jewish people (specifically the 144,000 sealed) and Christians (those that came to Christ during the tribulation, gentile and jew not in the 144,000) of the tribulation.

You probably still will not accept this, but there is no way to get around the fact that Yeshua is ON EARTH at this time so the dead must have been raised and then those that were left alive taken up - even if you are a post-tribulation believer.

This was not a teaching I heard or read, but the Holy Spirit just revealed this logical interpretation of the scripture so you can understand it more clearly.

Again, I applaud your chastisement of the Laodecian church. The areas that need to be addressed with in the Church today is not about the Rapture and when it happens, but about:

The Divinity of Yeshua
The infallibility of the Word of God (old and new testament)
The resurrection and ascension of Yeshua
The bodily return of Yeshua
Salvation by grace through faith

These are the major points of agreement that all Christians should come to.

Peace be unto you.
 Quoting: Spawn



HI Spawn. Peace to you.

You make a few good points.

But I too used to follow pre trib for a very long time.

I did so bevause I was just believing what I had been taught in the endless books and movies ect.

Something just did not sit right about it.

So I decided to do a in depth study of everything I had been taught.

The barean chrsitians were commended for doing this. They didnt just take things that were told to them no matter HOW good the doctrine seemed. But we all do this as christians..we just take whatever is said to us without in IN DEPTH LOOK at what we are being told.

Its very EASY to twist a scripture around or take them out of context to make them say what you WANT them to say.

But facts are facts and with an in depths study of the entire doctrine from all sides THIS was what I came up with.

(Keep in mind I was pre trib for 20 years before I did this and it was not easy for me to change my view. But the word is the word and should be used to interpret itself and be taken IN CONTEXT)

Please read it and dont close your eyes to it just because you alredy hold a certain view. Its so easy to be led astray by being willingly blind to something because of doctrinal bias.

Here is my study. Be patient..its a long read.

But after you have readd it and read it again feel free to comment on it.



The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 

I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY" is so hard to grasp?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone can EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.

I found a scripture which talks about it directly..and I am very surprised NO one has posted it yet..


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??

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